New Orleans

[Wolfbelly]

By now the chaos should be wrapping up in general. I just wanted to throw this topic out there to see what reactions pop up.

Personally, while I do sympathize with the people in the sense that without any aid and without proper sanitation, that is a shitty (pun somewhat intended) situation to be in, I find the actions of the New Orlean-ers rather deplorable. It seems as though once the symbol of authority disappears, everyone just felt completely free to resort to a Hobbesian state of nature, where no one had any rights and only the strong survived.

And then there's the whole thing of people chanting "We want help!" outside the stadium. Well no kidding! But try to meet the emergency personnel halfway at least. If you want help, first see what you can possibly do to ensure that you don't need help. Rapes and beatings going on in the stadium? How about showing some initiative and organizing some crap? Volunteering to work with the emergency personnel to ensure that things don't get worse. Don't cry out "We want help" and sit there like wailing infants.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Discuss. <p></p>

[pd Rydia]

I think bitching about somebody else's situation, and a damn rather bad one at that, is more than a little stupid. <p>

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[Animala]

There are many things wrong with this post!

Logical inconsistency, for example.

"It seems as though once the symbol of authority disappears, everyone just felt completely free to resort to a Hobbesian state of nature, where no one had any rights and only the strong survived."

"And then there's the whole thing of people chanting "We want help!" outside the stadium."

Definitely indicitive of a Hobbesian state of nature. Because, as everyone knows, the strong survive by asking for help. When I see a bunch of people chanting outside of a stadium, I think "solitary" and "[/i]brutish[/i]" are the best adjectives to describe their situation.

It seems (judging from time spent addressing the issue) you're slightly perturbed by the people who have decided that this is the perfect opportunity to get in all those savage beatings and rapes they've been saving up over the years, but what really bothers you is the actions of apparently innocent hurricane victims.

Or, to be more precise, your assumptions about their actions. All you have seen is that they're outside the stadium asking for help. Yet you assume they have not yet done everything they could conceive of to better their own positions.

Do you have any real reason to believe this? Did they interview someone who said "Well, yeah, I know how to build a time machine and a hurricane destructo-ray out of bamboo and coconuts, but I'd rather wait for aid to arrive"?

Do you know that the aid workers are taking volunteers? Do you know if the people know this? Do you, in fact, know a single damn thing about these people other than that they were chanting outside a stadium?

I'm sorry that your assumptions bother you so, but that seems to be a personal problem to me.

I'm with you on finding people who commit violent crimes deplorable. But you're calling the actions of victims deplorable (assuming the first paragraph applies to the entire post). At the worst, they're sub-optimal. Not morally wrong.

I sincerely hope that, if you're going to be playing armchair hurricane victim, you're at least also doing something more productive to address this problem.

-Koss <p>

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to make the pain go away
i cut the universe
with ribbons
because that makes perfect sense.</p>

[Kai]

Anne Rice and The New York Times say stuff. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

[Idran1701]

So does someone actually *in* New Orleans. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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[Wolfbelly]

Dia: Thanks for sharing.

WKD: Well shit, you caught me on semantics regarding Hobbesian stuff. Congratulations, you're the man.

Yes, I am bothered by both sets of people. Naturally, the rapes, beatings, lootings, etc. disgust me. And yes, the actions of the apparent innocent victims of the hurricane bothers me as well. I'm not bothered by their being victims, that's rough, and I can't fault them for that. Or, as you so flamboyantly put it, my "assumptions" of their actions.

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But you're calling the actions of victims deplorable (assuming the first paragraph applies to the entire post). At the worst, they're sub-optimal. Not morally wrong.

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Damn right I do. Chanting "We want help" is akin to a child skinning its knee and crying, or a group protesting unjust treatment. When children cry from skinned knees, what they want is for a grown up to come along and make it all better. Well, if the analogy holds, there are no grown ups in New Orleans. So a child that skins its knee and cries when no ones around is just settling on that boo-hoo self-pity that will ultimately get it nowhere. When people protest unjust treatment, then that makes sense if those who are delivering the unjust treatment hear/care about it, and can improve the situation. Now, can the emergency personnel hear? Yes. Do they care? Oh, most definitely. Can they do more than they're already doing? Nope. So the chant is pointless against them. How about mother Nature? Can she hear? I suppose. Does she care? Not really. So what the hell is the point of "protesting" the situation if no one is around to assist? What's the point of crying out "we want help" when the only help available is what they can give themselves? There is NO point, and that's why I find their actions deplorable. What they're giving in to is self-pitying wankery, and what purpose could that possibly serve?

Going back to assumptions, of course these are my assumptions. And obviously I haven't had any personal experience with this situation. The only assumptions I can make about the situation are from what I see on the news/internet. And when you have gems like this it's hard not to come out with differing viewpoints. <p></p>Edited by: Wolfbelly at: 9/5/05 4:38

[Besyanteo]

Quote:

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Damn right I do. Chanting "We want help" is akin to a child skinning its knee and crying, or a group protesting unjust treatment. When children cry from skinned knees, what they want is for a grown up to come along and make it all better. Well, if the analogy holds, there are no grown ups in New Orleans. So a child that skins its knee and cries when no ones around is just settling on that boo-hoo self-pity that will ultimately get it nowhere. When people protest unjust treatment, then that makes sense if those who are delivering the unjust treatment hear/care about it, and can improve the situation. Now, can the emergency personnel hear? Yes. Do they care? Oh, most definitely. Can they do more than they're already doing? Nope. So the chant is pointless against them. How about mother Nature? Can she hear? I suppose. Does she care? Not really. So what the hell is the point of "protesting" the situation if no one is around to assist? What's the point of crying out "we want help" when the only help available is what they can give themselves?

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Yes Lloyd. Because if I survive a flood that leaves me homeless, penniless, without transportation, food or clean water, and emergency assistance can't reach me, I'm TOTALLY gonna be quiet and sulk. Because there really is nothing I can do for myself. God forbid I should call out for assistance ion the hope that I might be noticed or reached sooner.

As for looting: If the place has things I can use to survive, and the town's flooded to that level anyway (It's all just gonna be thrown out and torn down later anyway), you bet your ass I'm going to 'loot' things that will help me get by until I can get some real assistance.

I don't know who you think you're impressing with this thread, but if you'd started insulting disaster survivors for not following your personal logic in a time when they don't even have basic needs, not being little angels despite the fact that they're FUCKING DYING, and I was an admin? Your ass would be gone, and not coming back.

I don't exactly see you doing anything to help the situation in Louisiana, Mr. Know-it-all. Shut up and sit down.

[Animala]

You ignored one significant group of people who could hear them. The media, of course. How did you hear about it? Are you already doing everything you could be doing to help? Is everyone? Do you think people sitting quietly not making a fuss would motivate any sort of additional response on a national scale? I mean, their chant already motivated you to post a thread about it on the internet. If we all posted threads on the internet, perhaps there would at last be relief for the suffering people of New Orleans.

Of course, if you are to hold them to the standard that their actions must serve a functional purpose rather than simply being an expression of their pain, one might well ask what the purpose of your post is. Can the people of New Orleans who fit the description you gave (assuming they exist) read it? I really doubt many of the people outside the dome have internet access and read RPGWW. What you're doing is giving in to self-righteous wankery, and what purpose could that possibly serve?

I find your actions deplorable. <p>

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to make the pain go away
i cut the universe
with ribbons
because that makes perfect sense.</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=whiteknightdelta>White]&nbsp; at: 9/5/05 11:59

[Wolfbelly]

Hmm, I just have to say this in response to WKD's post ...

<span style="color:red;font-size:xx-large;">BURN!!!</span>

As for my intent in making this post, I was looking to get people's opinions on the subject. Looks like a got hell of flamed instead. So be it.

As for Bes; they're outside the stadium. How could they not get help sooner? I'm not really looking to "impress" anybody, I'm just bringing up a subject that I don't see on here and discussing it (in my own way no less).

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As for looting: If the place has things I can use to survive, and the town's flooded to that level anyway (It's all just gonna be thrown out and torn down later anyway), you bet your ass I'm going to 'loot' things that will help me get by until I can get some real assistance.

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Yeah, those TVs, boxes of nikes and car tires are absolutely essential to survival. I'm not arguing that grabbing food and bare necesseties(sp?) is a bad thing. That's good because people will have to eat nonetheless. But viewing the effects of the Hurricane as your personal opportunity time to collect some fat bling is ... well, that's what I'm arguing.

But yeah, you all do raise some good points. I'm an asshole. <p></p>

[Kai]

Interview with Ray Nagin

And apparently everyone ever needs to see this. Courtesy of Crooksandliars.com <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>Edited by: Kai&nbsp; at: 9/5/05 14:22

[Wolfbelly]

Good link. Sort of brings up various theories I have about how this was a manufactured incident, but that'd more than likely just get me flamed more. <p></p>

[Kai]

Christian Group Blames Katrina on Gays, Exhibitionists.

This article made me puke inside my mouth a little. Though luckily the article quotes another Church that disagrees with the wackos. If they hadn't done that I might have been seriously ill.

Anyway, in the tradition of me posting interesting links, this one definitely came to mind. Not to start a Christian-bashing session, but to submit for review the madness of people in general. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>Edited by: Kai&nbsp; at: 9/5/05 16:44

[Archmage144]

Wow. Those guys make Wolfbelly look sensitive and considerate to hurricane victims. <p>

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[Kai]

I don't know, man. Those people tempted the wrath of The Whatever high up on The Thing. As Magnus commented to me, "It's pretty obvious to me that if you let people enjoy their genitals the way they want to, God will ruin your city. The only reason liberal strongholds like Chicago aren't in a shambles is that it's harder for God to reach you if you're inland, see."

It's like how God can't see through lead. He can't reach you if you're a certain distance from the coast. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

[Wolfbelly]

I chuckle inside when people say it's because of all the gays that New Orleans got whomped so hard. Rampant homosexuality and Mardi-Gras parades all tae place in the old French Quarter which, miraculously, was almost completely untouched by the hurricane.

God doesn't hate gay people. He hates either straight or poor people. <p></p>

[BrainWalker]

I'm not entirely sure Wolf is an ass... at least, I wasn't until that "manufactured incident" comment. It seems that the replies thus far have been far more emotionally charged than the original post... I don't think there's anyone who isn't aware of the tragic and chaotic nature of the situation, so I'm pretty sure that doesn't need to be brought up. I'm also pretty sure that it was not Wolfbelly's intention to cast disdain on an already tormented people. In fact, it is because of people who are abusing the situation and praying on these poor souls that he is disheartened with the people of New Orleans. Not all the people, of course, that much should be obvious.

This isn't the only Natural Disaster ever to happen in the history of our nation. There will always be those who will seek whatever opportunity they can find to prey on the weak, but it does seem to me like there's been more of that you usually hear/read about in similar situations. Even if it is to be expected, even if it is a vast minority of the population, it is still massively disheartening to hear that there are those who have so little love for their fellow man that they would take advantage of the dying, the dead, and those that must live having lost everything. I'm actually surprised that noone seems to have gotten that out of Wolfbelly's post.

As far as the chanting for help thing... I dunno, that's kind of a debate that you can't really win. I think what he was getting at is that everyone already knows they need help, and the people that are going to offer the most help are already doing so, and therefore staging an angry protest is kind of pointless. Then again, what the Hell are we to expect from people who have lost everything and are crammed into a stadium with several thousand other hot, hungry, defeated, angry people? Of course they aren't in the mood to form a Utopian society. They've been fucked over by mother nature, they have every right to protest it. So I say, let them say what they want. Let them cry for help, even if everyone already knows. A child who has scraped his knee doesn't stop crying the instant his mother shows up to comfort him, and his knee doesn't stop hurting, either.

I think all Wolfbelly really wants is for people to help each other in times of need. Even if he is kind of an ass, I can't fault him for that. <p><div style="text-align:center"></div></p>

[EKDS5k]

Note to self: Don't move to a city that is below sea level in a hurricane prone area.

Also, to Bes: Clearly, Lloyd was talking about the people taking food and clothing to survive when he talked about looters, and not, as he said, the nikes, TVs, car tires, etc, or, I don't know, the idiots who are shooting at rescue helicopters.

As for the chanting, well, obviously they want help. But it takes more than a couple of days to move that much assistance, because, surprisingly, the National Guard and the Red Cross have better things to do than make city-sized stockpiles of food, medicine, clothing, etc, within four hours of every major city in the US. It takes even longer when people decide it's a good idea to try and harm rescue workers, the police, etc.

Anyway, I have my own hurricane to worry about, starting tomorrow. Winds'll be twice as strong as Katrina's, so the TV says.

[PriamNevhausten]

Love for one's fellow man lasts all of about three to five hours after the disaster strikes. After that, desperation kicks in. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Wolfbelly]

I'm sure we'll get firsthand accounts of how far love for one's fellow man goes when Doc comes back from his terrible hurricane ordeal.

Best of luck, Doc! we're rooting for you! You know ... sexually. <p></p>

[EKDS5k]

It's cool here. The worst of it is out to sea a bit, so we're just getting a lot of wind. No major damage, but the power is out in some parts (not my house, obviously). The southern part of Japan got really hammered yesterday, though, with flooding up to chest height and trees going through houses and shit. The north part of Japan is expected to get it pretty bad tomorrow, too.

[NebulaQueen]

Do you know what's really fun, though? The reactions some of the cops had to this whole mess.

I knew that the New Orleans police force was corrupt, but breaking into a Wal-Mart and looting? Jesus christ. <p>

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"My naturally quivering state makes any display of fear deliciously arbitrary" - Manowar Leader, Scary-Go-Round</p>

[EKDS5k]

Tries too hard to sound like Maddox.

And yes, the police breaking into WalMart and stealing shit is pretty bad, but that person really isn't in a position to be yelling "thief!" judging from the rest of their post.

[Archmage144]

Maddox, on a completely unrelated note, is an irritating, overly bitter idiot. <p>

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[Wolfbelly]

At least he's open about it. <p></p>

[Archmage144]

I personally think that's the entire problem. <p>

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[EKDS5k]

I think Maddox is great.

hint: If you think he's bitter and irate, it's because you're taking his site too seriously.