A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

[Choark]

This is just me asking - in case anyone thinks I'm being bitchy or nasty or overblown or what. This post is meerly posted out of interest of seeing Seethe's (or anyone elses view) on these questions reguarding what follow's.

Saying this:

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As the Christian religion itself puts it, faith is a gift from God. Not even the most heroic efforts of a man can produce it. He can only receive it from God by God's will.

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Can that also mean that it is God's Will that I haven't recieved this belief then? That I haven't recieved this gift? That perhaps He wanted me not to believe in Him? Or is it taken that I meerly ignored His Will?

If I ignored His Will then fair enough.

If it was by His Will that I do not believe in Him, or wasn't given His Will to believe in Him... Then is it my fault I don't? Or His? And if it is His Will so that I don't believe in him, would I be judged the same as everyone else? Or would I be thanked and handshaked for following what He wanted me to?

Now say He's planning on giving me His Will later? What if I die before then? Is it my fault then? Or won't I die before then because of His Will? And if thats so.. then do we have any free will and can we be judged by Him if we're just following His Will to begin with?

Or is it that He chooses those who are worthy of having the gift of faith and those who don't were never worthy of it to begin with? And if so, what is it that makes me not worthy of the gift?

Edit:

And on some sudden rethinking...

Or is this faith that God is not there His gift to me? As faith is a gift? <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; at: 12/9/04 19:10

[Seethe347]

I certainly don’t resent a chance to organize my beliefs into writing. Of course, I won’t call myself an authoritative source. But I will try to work out what makes the most sense to me.

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Can that also mean that it is God's Will that I haven't recieved this belief then? That I haven't recieved this gift? That perhaps He wanted me not to believe in Him? Or is it taken that I meerly ignored His Will?

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Those who would say that you have merely ignored God's will would say this: "If you are to receive faith, you must first of all realize that you are a sinner, and then you must pray for salvation." Of course, in order to truly realize that you are a sinner, you must realize that there is a god to sin against. But that takes faith. By this way of thinking, you couldn't actually receive faith unless you already had it. Sort of a catch 21 there.

I think that it makes more sense to say that if someone never receives faith, then it, in fact, is God's Will that he should never receive faith. Someone will only receive faith if he is one of the Elect and it is in God's Plan that he receive it.

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If it was by His Will that I do not believe in Him, or wasn't given His Will to believe in Him... Then is it my fault I don't? Or His? And if it is His Will so that I don't believe in him, would I be judged the same as everyone else? Or would I be thanked and handshaked for following what He wanted me to?

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I don't believe that it would be right to blame God for anything. But it also can't be your fault since you didn't have any say in the matter. To tell the truth, I wouldn't even call it a "fault." To call it a "fault" would imply that it is an imperfection in God's perfect Plan.

As for what happens in the afterlife... I can't really say for certain. Honestly, my reason for saying this is not because I'm afraid to tell you that I think you're going to Hell. Even if I did believe that you were, I wouldn't think it right for people to be annoyed with me because of it. For one thing, my beliefs can't decide your fate. And for another thing, it wouldn't be as if I were looking down on you. If anything, Christianity demands that I consider myself to be below anyone else. And, of course, I certainly don’t want you to go to Hell. So, given that there should be no disadvantage in me telling you that I think that you will be condemned, I make no lie when I still say that it truly isn't my opinion that you would be punished in the depths of Hell, but I also can't say that it is my opinion that you won't be. The Bible itself and the many lines of Christian thought are just too conflicted for me to make a decision on this matter. Of course, the rest of the views I am expressing also come from conflicted lines of thought, but reason can be applied to them in order to extract some decision. In this matter, though, the only reasoning device I could possibly apply would be my conscience, but it is given more to human sentiments than to logic.

Admittedly, my thinking in this area doesn’t stay neutral all the time. In fact, it usually isn’t neutral. Most of the time, I either think that good people who don’t persecute Christians or hate the Holy Spirit but simply don’t have faith don’t go to Hell just for that reason or that they do go to Hell. Sometimes I think that they go to the “Outer Darkness,” which I believe to be either a void that their bodiless spirit wonders around in or simply a state of oblivion. And sometimes I think that they are given new bodies on a world similar to Earth where they will feel the same amount of joy and pain that they felt on Earth but also never die. Still, if you asked me to take a definite side in this area, I wouldn’t do it.

Now, I don’t think that they go to Heaven or, if they do, they don’t reach the highest parts of it. I believe the Elect to be the ones who have been chosen as God’s highest ranking servants to rule at His side forever. In other words, they are God’s vassals. (I don’t believe that they are superior people. It’s just that their rank is higher.)

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Now say He's planning on giving me His Will later? What if I die before then? Is it my fault then? Or won't I die before then because of His Will? And if thats so.. then do we have any free will and can we be judged by Him if we're just following His Will to begin with?

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I will say that if He is planning on giving you faith sometime in the future, then you won't die before then. As far as free will goes... I don't believe in it. I don't recall seeing anything about free will in the Bible despite the fact that Christians use the concept to explain why God allows bad things to happen. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that everything that happens does so because it is part of God's Plan. If someone is given children, it was part of God's Plan that they have children. If someone uses artificial methods to create a baby, it was part of God's Plan that they do that. If someone gets mugged in an alley, then it was part of God's Plan that they be mugged in the alley and that the mugger mug them. If someone is to be judged by God, then it was part of God's Plan that they be judged by God. And, of course, if someone is damned to Hell for eternity, then it was part of God's Plan that they be damned to Hell for eternity. (By the way, I don't think that artificial methods of creating children are sinful. The idea that they are comes from Natural Law rather than the Scriptures. Several passages in the Scriptures make it clear that if anyone adds to or takes away from God's word, then God will add to their suffering or take away from their happiness, respectively. So I’m not going to add something as broad as Natural Law to God’s word.)

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Or is it that He chooses those who are worthy of having the gift of faith and those who don't were never worthy of it to begin with? And if so, what is it that makes me not worthy of the gift?

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I don't believe that worthiness has anything to do with it. I don't believe that I should think myself to be any more worthy of Salvation than anyone else. I don't believe that I should think Him to love me any more or less than he loves anyone else. My faith was given to me by God's Grace alone. I know that this can be made to sound arbitrary and unfair, so I can only hope that people won't be too annoyed with me for believing this. I can't really help it. But for my part, since I can’t see God as being guilty of wrongdoing, I won't accuse him of unfairness either.

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Or is this faith that God is not there His gift to me? As faith is a gift?

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Huh… to call that a gift…

I guess you could… In fact, yes. I would be comfortable in calling that a gift. God wouldn’t give you something that would divert you from His Plan. To me, it should be obvious that His giving it to you would be for the purpose of helping to cause you to do what is in His Plan for you to do. In fact, it has already helped cause you to cause me to organize some of my beliefs into writing.

Now, for you to call it a gift from God would be another matter. If you truly believe that it is a gift from God, then that would have to mean that you believed in a God to give it to you. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the Christian God that you believe gave it to you, but it would have to be a God. If you don’t believe in any God, then you can still call it a gift and you can still appreciate it if you feel that you should, but it wouldn’t mesh with your beliefs for you to say that it is from God. It’s probably more accurate by an atheistic way of thinking for you just to say that it is a conclusion that you arrived at through reason or that it is a conclusion that you remained at because you couldn’t arrive at any other conclusion through reason.

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So, basically, I believe in predestination. I believe that everything happens according to God’s Plan and that every part of God’s Plan is the way that it is because that is the most perfect way that it can be. If you show me an example of something that seems bad and ask, “how can this possibly be the most perfect way that this could have happened?” I will say, “I don’t know, but I just believe that it is the most perfect way that it could have happened.

Also, so that people aren’t confused, I want to make something clear. I don’t think that when God gives faith to someone, that they just begin to believe all of the sudden while just sitting there. I believe that if it’s part of God’s plan for someone to receive faith, events will unfold in their life that will lead them to have it.

Furthermore, I don’t want people to think that I am a Christian for reasons that are entirely beyond logic. In fact, I actually have a logical argument, based somewhat on St. Anshelm’s Ontological proof, that I used just last week to fend off a bout of pretty serious doubts that I was feeling. I could post it, but I won’t if no one requests it because I would consider it to be too assertive of a thing to do in this situation. I don’t want to upset anyone.

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And now, the original question. What keeps me going?

It shouldn’t be surprising by now for me to say that faith keeps me going. Also, I seem to feel better about myself after making it through a hard period, so I suppose the fact that I feel that I can become a better person than I previously was if I keep going helps too.

[Choark]

I just wanted to post:

Thankyou for writing that. It was certainly interesting to read your answers.

Again, thanks. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

[Celeste of Elvenhame]

No, I'd disagree on the presdestination bit because of free will. God gave it to us. He can't force us to do anything or rather he won't. (he will sure as hell go out of his way to push us into the position he wants us, take for example jonah being swallowed by that whale.)

God has a plan for us, he does truly. However we have to accept that plan. Honestly, I'm a lot happier for it, even if I don't know what the hell god plans on doing with my life. (After all thatchildhood drama, I hope it's something worthwhile though, god damnit. *shakes a random fist at god in a not unusual childish display or frustration with Him*)

other things: AM makes more sense, but I still feel religion has more to do with emotion than scientific logic. Look at all those 'saved' on their deathbeds for are just afraid there might really be a hell in the afterlife.

Dia: (I'm going to be harsh here because quite frankly I'm not in the mood to tiptoe around just because someone here, who is more prominent and powerful, etc, etc, is behaving like an ass and might have the ability or wish to punish me for my statements.)

Don't know what your issues are, put please don't come into the middle of the conversations other adults are having and tell us how much you disapprove our our discussion of opinions. No one is forcing you to come read so if you can't handle it, please...don't...read...it. Or at the very least don't come in and tell us how terrible we all are and leave.,,,and expect anyone to pay much attention. (Other than my "uh...WTF?' sort of curiosity or as others have mentioned outright anger at your audacity.) <p>---------------Celeste of Elvenhame ---------------

Aaron Lewis of Guildportal: On the up side though, most of the remaining bugs are genuinely evil, sentient beings that actively dodge attempts to thwart them.</p>

[WillBaseton]

I'm sorry, Seethe, but there are a few facets of your argument that don't exactly make sense in my book. Please explain them to me so I'll be able to argue less harshly.

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I think that it makes more sense to say that if someone never receives faith, then it, in fact, is God's Will that he should never receive faith. Someone will only receive faith if he is one of the Elect and it is in God's Plan that he receive it.

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Wait, so God is not only not a loving god, but he's also got the mentality of an 8th-grade jock? "Well, I don't like you, so you don't get to be part of the Plan. NYEH TO YOU!" This "Elect" concept makes no sense to me. For example, what makes a redneck who believes unquestionably in the power of God, but is otherwise a complete and utter piece of human garbage, worthy of the chance to "rule at God's side", but people who spend their lives helping people and either don't find time to believe or don't believe due to lack of proof are doomed to eternal damnation? This is a sadly elitist concept imprinted upon you by the Church. Even if you don't recognize it as such, it's true. It's the same thing the Radical Muslims do to stir up anti-Western sentiment, and it's the same thing that happened with the numerous Axis groups in World War II. "You are God's chosen people, so screw everyone else!" Even though you say the issue isn't about worthiness, you don't give a concrete reason for what the issue IS about. Saying "just faith" is a completely pointless argument around people who don't have it, you need to realize. If "faith" truly is this mystical power that lets you ignore all lies and inconsistencies just so you can sit in a little comfort zone until the day you die, then what good is it? Are we not beings with the capacity to learn, and thus grow, outside of our own borders? Just because God (through the Church) is shaking a finger at you, saying "Don't ask questions!" does not mean we must suspend the path of human progress.

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If anything, Christianity demands that I consider myself to be below anyone else.

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A lot of Christians I know sure as hell don't see it that way. In fact, a lot of times, I've seen Christians believe they're BETTER than me because they believe and I don't. This may just be a difference in upbringing or personal belief, so I won't dwell on it too much. But it is an interesting point. I've never once heard a Christian make it before.

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If someone is to be judged by God, then it was part of God's Plan that they be judged by God. And, of course, if someone is damned to Hell for eternity, then it was part of God's Plan that they be damned to Hell for eternity.

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So in other words, God creates us (the "Ungifted") solely to torture us in life and after death. We don't have a choice as to what afterlife we get into, because God says we either go to Heaven or Hell. We don't get to choose to do ANYTHING, according to predestinational logic. Either A) All choices are irrelevent and will inevitably lead us to the path God chose for us, or B) We don't have the choice to begin with and God (or one of his angels) is poking our minds at the point of every decision to make us choose the way he wants us to. Real benevolent. So the concept of free will is irrelevant, and all of us "Ungifted" are just shades put here so you Chosen won't be lonely while you're on Earth. What kind of Creator treats his creations like a bunch of middle school kids? "Well, I like YOU, so you get to be happy after you die. All of you other guys get to go burn." What the hell is that? All in all, I'd much rather not believe in God if there's a possibility that I was created solely because God likes to fuck with me. I believe that God doesn't exist because I haven't seen proof, and because my life as a whole has been too bad for me to believe. I think that if I saw proof of it, and I mean REAL proof, not these "savings" everyone's supposed to take on faith alone and all that bullshit, but if God actually spoke to me or made himself known to the world (You know, like he apparently used to all the time back in the day). But honestly, why the hell should I believe in a God that has allowed me to suffer and people who don't deserve it to prosper? I don't care about OTHER people having happy lives above my own. Yes, the happiness of other people is important to me, and I make strides to be a good person and help people, but there is a point at which I can't do it anymore. I can't allow myself to suffer endlessly so that other people can be happy instead of me. Of course, I'm being selfish here. I'm a human being. That's what we are.

I'm going to close this up with a bit of logic from one of the theories that you yourself brought up in your post. In the theories of Natural Law, anything that fulfills our Living, Sensitive, and Rational Dispositions (also known as human nature) is moral (and thus allows the achievement of eudaimonia, or true happiness) as long as it doesn't get in the way of others' chances to achieve the same state. Some will argue that human nature was placed here by God's own Divine Law, which is in fact incomprehensible by man (in other words, the Church hasn't figured out a way to justify it yet), and thus anyone who believes in God is fulfilling all three dispositions at the same time. There are others who argue that human nature is the result of evolution, and we have built up our dispositions through necessity, giving us a more logical moral pursuit based off of past experiences as a species. The fact of the matter is, no matter what happens, religion always comes down, at its core, to a set of loose precepts that the creators thereof (or their successors) expect everyone to follow without question, dismissing logic.

And what I ask to the supporters of religion is simply this. Why? What's so bad about thinking? What's so bad about asking questions? We were given, either through evolution or through some giant spirit's hand, the ability to think for ourselves. Why are we not being allowed to use it? <p>

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The closer you get to light, the greater your shadow becomes.</p>

[pd Rydia]

Celeste: I'm an admin. Recall this? I have an invested interest when threads get the makings of going downhill.

Further, I personally get irked when I see what could be a decent religious discussion being the thread in question. With the intelligence of most people on this board, and everyone in this thread, there's no reason why such a topic can't be discussed in a level-headed manner--and every reason why it should be. Take a browse around the religious topics of "normal" forums for an example of what I mean.

Also, I don't know where apparently half+ the board got off being so insecure, but what I thought was self-evident, I obviously need to make more clear. I'm not calling you "terrible." Or anyone else in this thread. My habit of recent times is to be much more blatant in my attacks--it's more cathartic, and provides for better logs. I'm saying that Cho was getting too involved in his debating, and coming off more heated than necessary...that's a judgment on his actions, not him.

I'll be sure to be more clear next time, rest assured. And perhaps quote someone other than Doc. <p>

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<center><small>"We are just poor, wandering corn farmers..."

</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pdrydia>pd]&nbsp; at: 12/10/04 12:58

[Choark]

Celeste:

Lighten the Fuck Up does not mean she dissaproves of our discussion. Nor does it mean she wants us to stop the discussion. Nor does it mean she can't handle the discussion.

What she was telling us, or in this case I might add, me, was not to post flamey, or attacking, or angry sounding posts in a heated aura, and to Lighten Up and Calm the Fuck Down and just post.

I have shed the Tears of Regret for causing the Duck to Quack and have calmed down. I was being stupid with some my posts rather then being calm. She might of been able to do it better but then she could of done it a lot worse.

Extra note:

I note that it was I who asked Seethe to answer those questions, so like, try not to get on his case about his views and beliefs. They are his and don't hurt anyone. He wasn't even going to put them forward to upset anyone before I asked him to. Saying that if hes okay answering anyone elses questions then no big. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

[Seethe347]

As an adult, I have no problem with my beliefs being challenged.

Celeste: As far as predestination and free will go, I’ll just have to agree to disagree with you on it since part of my definition of the term “God” is “that force which controls everything.”

Will: My views come from the basic assumption that God is completely perfect. After all, the name of my God is Jesus Christ, not Marduk. If your objections don't contain that basic assumption, then I can't argue with them.

The only way for me to defend this assumption is by posting that logical argument that I mentioned in my last post. But I won’t feel that I am acting within my rights by doing that unless someone specifically requests it.

And, keep in mind that when I say "defend," I mean nothing more than defend. It might be convincing to somebody, but its only real purpose is to provide me with a logical reason not to change my assumption in light of objections such as the ones you have posted.

Cho: Thanks for the appreciation. ^_^

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seethe347>Seethe347</A] at: 12/10/04 20:20

[Elementalist Daien]

First off- What moves me?


Fun. I am the kind who never has enough of being silly, laughing. It's those moments in life that actually make it worth it.

Some people take the fun moments in life for granted, the moments without worry. I don't. I know it's kinda odd, but I don't think any of our lives would be fit for living.


That, and another thing that ties in with religion-


Following your heart. The fact I know I'm following my heart gives me strength, really. As a man who would be very old by now (Socrates) once said, "The unexamined life is not worth living", and it's really not, in my opinion. Why do you do what you do? Why do you believe in what you believe? Why do you hold dear what you hold dear?

I could go on a huge rant, but I won't. Instead, I'll move to say that it's no surprise that conformists are my greatest anger. This does not mean that I like to be "crazy cool different", but to agree with something just because the majority does is a pathetic, pathetic thing, I'm afraid.

This does not mean that you have to not conform, either. That is what I want many, many people to know. Living your parents' life, or your society's, is a sad thing. Sure, we're all a bit limited by the society we live in, but we all have our own set of glasses, different viewpoints.

You pass what you have, and what you know, through what you feel is right, and you have your life worth living. It may change as you do. But that is not a bad thing.

As long as you don't harm anyone...

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=elementalistdaien>Elementalist] at: 12/12/04 5:25

[pd Rydia]

Celeste: You're right, it probably would have been a lot better for me to have done that. Can't say I wasn't irked, and posted sooner than I should have.

On the other hand, it's a step up from some of the things I've done in the past. :þ

...I wonder if that's something to be proud of.

I understand about the text mis/communication thing--it can happen a lot, especially between people who aren't particularly familiar with each other. I'll try to keep that in mind.


My apologies to Scott, Brian, Celeste, and anyone else who may have been made upset by my post. <p>

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<center><small>"We are just poor, wandering corn farmers..."

</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pdrydia>pd]&nbsp; at: 12/12/04 14:42

[Celeste of Elvenhame]

Actually Choark I didn't read you as being an ass, questioning, yes. Frustrated because people were hearing you but not listening, hell yes. Assine, no.

Dia if you had a problem with a person couldn't you do it in private, it's kinda rude to do it in public. (At least my parents taught me that, it just might be a my family sort of thing.)

Also, I wasn't angry just irate. I don't always express that well in text on a message board more strongly than I intend to. My apologies for that.

Seethe: Agreeing to disagree is okay. Actually it's more interesting to talk with a person who can agree to disagree, believe it or not. Why? Because once we've talked things out to the point of obvious disagreement we can move onto something else intersting to discuss.

I forgot who was discussing about arrogance of some christians...boy do I agree on that, it's part of why I don't hang out with a lot of fellow Christians. We are supposed love our enemies as we do our neighbors, but I rarely see that happen. Even if I am not the one being judged, it pisses me off to see others use the Bible to put others down.

I'm going to go out on a bit of limb here, because I am curious as to what others think.

Am I the only here whom believes there is more than one acceptable religion to God? I believe you choose the religion and God more than likely judges you but those standards. Now I have an exception to this belief. It has to be an inherently 'good' religion. IE Being a good Satanist will NOT get you into heaven.
<p>---------------Celeste of Elvenhame ---------------

Aaron Lewis of Guildportal: On the up side though, most of the remaining bugs are genuinely evil, sentient beings that actively dodge attempts to thwart them.</p>

[Celeste of Elvenhame]

I know that feeling Rydia, I battle that a lot myself. A lot. Mostly in different ares. It's a hard path but we all eventually get there. And God knows you seem to expode less than I tend to do. <p>---------------Celeste of Elvenhame ---------------

Aaron Lewis of Guildportal: On the up side though, most of the remaining bugs are genuinely evil, sentient beings that actively dodge attempts to thwart them.</p>