D&D 4th, some questions that probably ought to be in OOC

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Christian
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D&D 4th, some questions that probably ought to be in OOC

Unread postby Christian » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:52 pm

Alright people.

I'm doing it. I'm taking the big step into the big world and I'm getting the 4th Edition on the release day here in Sweden.

Now, I'm wondering... if anyone could answer this... Is there any way to tell what WOTC is releasing that is compatible with the 4th Edition system?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=pr ... ablesort=5

Here they only mention in a few releases that it's compatible with 4th, but seeing as they've released stuff to it before even the main release...

Help a newbie GM out, as I'm planning to run a campaign with my friends. I'm not a huge fan of Forgotten Realms from my experiences (mostly Baldur's Gate, which I never really liked; I'm more of a Planescape fan), and Eberron I know close to nothing about.

What do you guys recommend getting? Both at the moment and in the future? I'm confident in my abilities to create a campaign, and I'm even thinking of making my own world, starting out in one country and expanding the world as we go on, or something.

Anyways, any thoughts?

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Unread postby Jak Snide » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:41 pm

I know little about the settings in 4e, but the Forgotten Realms has been buggered senseless by a magical apocalypse to bring it in line with the "points of light in the darkness" theme they seem to have going. As for Eberron I do not know.

Also, IM me so I can tell you how some nefarious sort leaked the three core rulebooks as PDFs onto the net.

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Unread postby Kelne » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:03 pm

Well, the Forgotten Realms stuff is coming out sometime this year, while Eberron is next year. They're essentially releasing one setting a year. Three books for each and they're done. So there's a very real possibility of seeing some of the less used settings a couple of years down the track. I expect there'll also be setting-specific stuff in the online versions of Dungeon and Dragon, though I've found them to be something of a disappointment to date.

As for non setting specific stuff, well, there's the various sequels to the PHB and Monster Manual, the Draconomicon, the Manual of the Planes, an equipment guide and various adventures. I suggest the ENWorld newsfeed on this very forum as a good way of keeping track of what's coming.

Truth be told, I've pretty much gone over to the competition at this point. I had quite enough of updating my books every few years with Warhammer 40,000, and they only expected me to buy the main rulebook and the relevant codex (I resisted all temptation to buy new and updated miniatures).

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Unread postby Kelne » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:10 pm

I now realise that I have failed to answer your question. Put simply, anything released from Keep on the Shadowfell on is going to be 4E compatible; They've ended all support for 3.5E.

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Unread postby Christian » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:30 am

Ah, alright, thanks for the info people! :)

Truth be told Jak, a little devil has already taken me down the path of damnation, but I've pre-ordered the books anyway; I'm just reading up on them now so I can present the stuff to my group today (we're having something of a meeting to discuss our future).

I've listened to the Podcast with the Penny Arcade crew playing 4th with Scott from PVP Online, and they're doing Shadowkeep, where the GM mentions JUST this Light in the darkness thing... Should I assume that this setting is in Forgotten Realms, then?

Basicly, the reason I dislike FR is mostly because of Baldur's Gate, as well as the personal opinions of my old GM... and the Drizzt novels, sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, but after some years of roleplaying here, the story of a tragic hero who opposes the evil in his own race who dual-wields is just... meh.

I'm probably going to prioritize getting the PHB and stuff like that, seeing as I don't intend to run a pre-made adventure. I know very much of what you speak of, Kelne, as I play 40k myself; although since I only recently picked it up, and I play the spees mareeens, I've been spared some of the angst; I also got a copy of the Battle for Macragge ruleset cheap, so I'm waiting until 5th there to get the whole rulebook.

Anyway, again, thanks a lot for the feedback, I'll go and check out the newsfeed.

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Unread postby Idran1701 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:35 am

Christian wrote:Basicly, the reason I dislike FR is mostly because of Baldur's Gate, as well as the personal opinions of my old GM... and the Drizzt novels, sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, but after some years of roleplaying here, the story of a tragic hero who opposes the evil in his own race who dual-wields is just... meh.


Just to be fair, Drizz't is the one that started that whole stereotype, so while it certainly looks tired now, it wasn't when he was created.

Not that it makes him any less annoying of a character, honeslty, but just putting that out there.

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Unread postby Jak Snide » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:32 am

Christian wrote:Basicly, the reason I dislike FR is mostly because of Baldur's Gate


You best be joking, sir. :[ No one with a soul can hate those games.

What bugs me about FR is the HUGE number of epic level characters roaming about and being active in the world, which you'd think would reduce the need for you and your level 3 buddies to roam around and beat on some kobolds. That said, our own Suicidal Sprite is running a FR game for a few friends and I and doing a pretty good job of it. So far we've not had contact with any of the big names and it's been for the best.

PS: We all know everyone reads the Drizzt books for Bruenor.

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Unread postby Kelne » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:33 am

Christian wrote:Ah, alright, thanks for the info people! :)

I've listened to the Podcast with the Penny Arcade crew playing 4th with Scott from PVP Online, and they're doing Shadowkeep, where the GM mentions JUST this Light in the darkness thing... Should I assume that this setting is in Forgotten Realms, then?


Not at all. To explain, the Points of Light thing is one of 4E's central tenets (at least in fluff terms). Basically, the world's gone to hell. Civilisation on any wide scale has collapsed (often leaving ruins behind). Most of the land is effectively mapped out as 'here be dragons', with only a few enclaves of civilisation (the aforementioned points of light) remaining. Anybody who ventures out from the shelter of their home village could run across just about anything. Ruined keeps, marauding orcs, the Temple of Elemental Evil, what have you.

So I daresay the podcast is set in the default setting, which is... Well, generic. Aggressively so. In fact, I hesitate to call it a setting at all. It's essentially a big blank map on which a GM can place whatever they feel like, because nobody really knows what's out there.

Forgotten Realms has something of a history of being drastically altered to better fit new editions, and has accordingly been blown up. Now, after a century or so of darkness, spellplague, gibbering whatsits and so forth, not to mention entire chunks of continent being transposed with an alternate world, nobody has the faintest idea what's over the next hill anymore.

Kelne: Pit fiends.

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Unread postby Christian » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:39 pm

I have a soul, as is evident from my liking of Planescape; but I am also the kind of person who despises Oblivion (and all the other Elder scrolls games) for being FAR TOO FREE! I can't handle that, because I panick whenever I'm given free reigns. It's so bad I get Walkthroughs for games just so I can do everything.

I'm that kind of person, I need to do everything

Plus, I never got that engaged about the story... Arcanum has also proven there's really nothing majorly wrong with the kind of gameplay (don't even get me started on the Fallout series, I love them), I just never got engaged to it.

I think a lot of the magic of the game was lost on me as I'd never played in FR before it, and a lot of the games seem to throw in these easter eggs or what have you that I can't even pick out.

Enough ranting though, I don't doubt the quality of the setting, any good GM can do something with it, and it's straight-A fantasy, it's just not that interesting to me...


And I think I like the "points of light in darkness", as I want to build up a world slowly around the players, I want to start them out on a small scale, a kingdom here, a fiefdom here, and maybe expose them to the larger world (even have federations, Empires, Unions etc. come into existance partly because of their doing).

Oh, and we've made the players right now.

We've got a gladiator-turned-fighter for hire Dragonborn. Got kicked out of the arena for killing too often and showing up plastered to all his fights. The paladin kinda slapped him silly and gave him a proper job.

The aforementioned Paladin, a Tiefling paladin who serves Avandra. She's determined to prove the image of the Tieflings as dark and evil wrong, and has suffered scorn and distrust in the holy order, yet she's now ready to face the World and all that. She met the Wizard during a Summer course in Arcane Pottery, an obscure yet potent branch of Fel Furnishing (they kind of missed the Warlock, who attended a half-time course in Ruinous Weaving).

The Halfling Wizard, who learned magic due to her grandfather having been one of some renown before he got himself blasted off to another plane or something. Also partly because she wanted to learn Magic Missile.

The Dwarven Warlock, discovered an ancient tome in the depths of a mountain his clan lived in; Apparantly the cave in which it laid had been the home of an Ancient Warlock of Immense Power, yet a misreading of coordinations had made him apparate inside the stone surrounding the cavern.


Suffice to say, these aren't OFFICIAL stories... mostly, but I'm glad my players took it all with a bit of salt, we still haven't played yet though, but plan to do so this monday.

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:42 pm

Since this thread IS in spam:

I have a soul, as is evident from my liking of Planescape; but I am also the kind of person who despises Oblivion (and all the other Elder scrolls games) for being FAR TOO FREE! I can't handle that, because I panick whenever I'm given free reigns. It's so bad I get Walkthroughs for games just so I can do everything.

I'm that kind of person, I need to do everything


Stop playing video games: What you want are books, apparently. :o

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Unread postby Christian » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:51 pm

You're absolutely right about that.

In fact, I'll stop surfing the internet, way too much liberty for me. ;)

Seriously though, I'm one of the few people who enjoy graphic novels; the illusion of choice, no matter how small, and I enjoy it. I'm also a sucker for the choose-your-own-adventure kind of books.

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Unread postby Justice Augustus » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:36 pm

Idran1701 wrote:
Christian wrote:Basicly, the reason I dislike FR is mostly because of Baldur's Gate, as well as the personal opinions of my old GM... and the Drizzt novels, sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, but after some years of roleplaying here, the story of a tragic hero who opposes the evil in his own race who dual-wields is just... meh.


Just to be fair, Drizz't is the one that started that whole stereotype, so while it certainly looks tired now, it wasn't when he was created.

Not that it makes him any less annoying of a character, honeslty, but just putting that out there.


I actually quite enjoy the first 10 or so Drizzt books. They're good hack'n'slash fiction with a very simple (conceptually) main character. The reason I think most people hate Drizzt is how he spawned a million clones and wannabes, in all forms of fantasy adventure (D&D, other RPGs, MMOs, etc). Even so, they're good fun reads for a long train ride and I'd recommend them to most people as a nice intro to fantasy novels.

What bugs me about FR is the HUGE number of epic level characters roaming about and being active in the world, which you'd think would reduce the need for you and your level 3 buddies to roam around and beat on some kobolds. That said, our own Suicidal Sprite is running a FR game for a few friends and I and doing a pretty good job of it. So far we've not had contact with any of the big names and it's been for the best.


As far as you know! HO HO HO!

But seriously, I love the Forgotten Realms. You've just got to stay the hell away from anything covered by any of the books or games (or you'll have players with meta-knowledge or someone might purposefully set out to find one of the epic characters).

I only own 5 D&D books. Players, Monster, DM, Forgotten Realms, and Manual of the Planes. The thing is, to paraphrase the late, great Douglas Adams: The Forgotten Realms are big. Really big. There's so much possibility there that you can play dozens of campaigns and never see the same place twice. My guys are currently active in the Dalelands/Cormyr, but an adventure in Thay would have a totally different feel, as would something set down in Amn or the Vast or the Underdark or the Chultan Peninsula or...you get the idea.


I'm also looking forward to 4th ed, and have placed a preorder for the books. But I just worry that the fluff is going to be far too GRIM AND DARK for me. Yes their should be strife, yes there needs to be danger, but that doesn't mean that everything has to be so depressing. It's just pandering to cultural desire for "gritty realism" or something. I'll hold final judgement until the books arrive, but we'll see. Oh we'll see....

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Unread postby Ganonfro » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:12 pm

I have the 4th Edition books already. Borders gives a nice 33% discount that helped my decision, and hearing Penny Arcade playing it with PvP is amazingly insightful on how it should be played.

For those who haven't looked into it, it's really nifty. By nifty I mean its almost completely different than 3rd and 3.5 in increases of stats, skills, abilities etc.

Also, instead of spells per day, you have skills for all classes that you can use At will, only during encounters, and Daily spells/actions. LOOK INTO IT. ITS A GOOD IDEA. GO. WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?

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Unread postby Justice Augustus » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:48 am

Because I just checked my Amazon account, and apparently Delivery Estimate June 12-18th was a lie, and now it's July 28th-August 8th. Oh goody. Just in time for my birthday and for me to LEAVE THE FREAKING COUNTRY.

I'm going to try and stop by my local gaming store on the way back from work instead. There's a bunch of bookshops there so it should be ok.

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Unread postby FlamingDeth » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:40 am

I just got the books too. Pretty sweet stuff, way more intuitive than 3.5 and earlier. Should get to actually *play* the thing soon. Some of the ability names are pretty silly though.



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Unread postby Jak Snide » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:25 am

FlamingDeth wrote:I just got the books too. Pretty sweet stuff, way more intuitive than 3.5 and earlier. Should get to actually *play* the thing soon. Some of the ability names are pretty silly though.



...WHITE RAVEN ONSLAUGHT!


A throwback to the Tome of Battle? :o

Also, while I do like the mechanics a whole deal, I find the stuff that frames them alot less appealing. The economy feels even more artificial than it did previously, and the planar philosophy of "if the players can't go there then it's worthless" rubs me in the wrong way. The alignment system now makes less sense too. Leading up to release it was going to be Good, Evil and unaligned, the first two being extremes. Now they've added in Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil, which imposes the old alignment framework without having the full set of alignments.

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Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:18 am

You are silly and caught up in names. You notice that 'lawful' is ONLY on good, and 'chaotic' is only on evil. If it makes you feel better, call them evil, good, unaligned, Evil-on-principle, and good-on-principle. Because that's really what they are. It just happens that evil-on-principle happens to most often deliberately sow chaos, and good-on-principle happens to involve the law in an essential sense. It's not biaxial like it has been in the previous few editions; it's just a one-dimensional spectrum.

Which I like because it's less confusing and arbitrary and meaningless.

And yeah, White Raven is a reference to what the class was called in, I think, 2nd edition.

Also, the planar philosophy mentioned is largely exclusive to the generic setting, as you may have heard Spelljammer is coming back. It's a common line of thought, though: If nobody can possibly go there, why even mention that it exists? For all we know, it doesn't.

Besides, a good DM will throw whatever he/she needs aside in order to have a good game. Ding.
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Unread postby Ganonfro » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:24 pm

I have a game started up for Tuesday and every following one. I'm retro fitting FF1, as it has minimal plot already in it that I can make up reasons that sound conceivable.

Players are currently
Eladrin Ranger (Male)
Human Rogue (Male)
Dwarf Wizard (Male)
Dragon Born Cleric (Female)

...My fiance really wanted to be a Dwarf Bard, but Bard was removed for the core classes.

But yeah, most things are more intuitive, but I have to say when writing up your character, the Players handbook is lacking in clarification.

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Unread postby Christian » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:42 pm

Indeed, it really lacks the "Synopsis" that you'd find in White Wolf products. :/

And why's bard not there anymore? Boo! X( Guess I'll have to get the supplements...

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Unread postby Ganonfro » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:38 pm

Well, they took out Barbarian, Sorceror, Druid, and Monk, and Psion. Sorc is no longer needed, as Wizards are the combination of both 3rd ed classes. And the other three were mentioned to be in future installments. Bard was pretty much replaced with the "Warlord" class, which buffs allys out the ass. I'm allowing anyone who still wants to be a Bard at this point to take that class and just rename the abilities, since Bard inspired people through some art instead of leadership

Edited for completeness.
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Unread postby Kelne » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:01 am

Ruleswise, I hear nothing but good things in terms of ease of use and exciting fights. The thing that bugs me is that whenever I look at something, I seem to wind up seeing less options than I once had. I'm not talking about the infinite array of supplemental books (Though obviously they're not usable in 4E), I'm talking about options in the 3E core books.

It was most obvious while looking at artifacts in the DMG. Four artifacts (at one page each), compared to 19 in the 3E guide. And the Hand and Eye of Vecna read as if somebody was turned loose with copy and paste. Nor was the selection of magic items in the PHB any better. Sure, you get multiple levels for each item, but there's just so much left out. Intelligent items seem to have been folded into artifacts.

Otherwise though, looking at character options and spells (divided between individual classes and rituals), I'm reasonably happy with the array of options. And I can certainly see why, at 17 odd pages each, we only get 8 classes to choose from. I just can't help but dislike the fact that it'd take me at least two or three extra books to reclaim the options I had in the core three under 3E.

And don't even get me started on the planes. It's all very well to simplify the planes, but down to less than two pages? Argh. The DMG as a whole seems rather light on interesting things for me to draw inspiration from.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:23 am

Hm. I'd have to look over the rules again to get my opinion, though I will note that single-classing seems to be the ONLY way to go. Sure, okay, discourages the 3.5e twinks, but at the same time, I liked the variety there as a result of being able to multiclass.

It feels like, between the seemingly lowered variety (not even counting the fact that I was all over the varied sourcebook classes, including and especially ToB), and the return of the Big Four combat roles (Meatshield, Squishy Wizard, Healbot, Sneaky Bastard, or whatever your names for them are at this moment), I'm not quite so fond of the system so far. I hated the Big Four to begin with, and honestly liked how that was nicely avoided in the campaign I was in under Bes. I'm also not digging this implication that "durability is better than not getting hit" that seems to be here in a few sections.

This is never minding the fact that, as Kelne stated, they butchered the planes, removed the Blood War (probably the most interesting thing about fiends in D&D "canon" by -far-), they're trying to enforce moral absolutism even MORE, equating good with law and evil with chaos on many points, Good and Evil being two big-ass factions, so on...nevermind all but forcing PCs to be "Good"...ugh. I have no taste for their flavor preferences here. I'm okay with post-apocalypse stuff and whatnot, but What The Fuck, man. They flubbed it worse than an amputee attempting a Dragon Punch motion.

Also, extra hate for the Tiefling flavor. Every bit of it. They should not look like rejects from the Hellboy tryouts, and for fuck's sake, what's with the backstory?! Just give me my fiend-descended people again, and let me imagine them like I did for 3.5e.

Meh. I imagine there are some good things to it, but I haven't exactly been a positive person as of late. That, and I'd probably need to reread the books.

At least maybe we won't have to deal with Batman Wizards anymore.

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Unread postby FlamingDeth » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:47 am

PriamNevhausten wrote:And yeah, White Raven is a reference to what the class was called in, I think, 2nd edition.


It can be a reference to whatever it wants, but it still sounds like a supermove from a badly translated japaese fighting game.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:04 am

FlamingDeth wrote:
PriamNevhausten wrote:And yeah, White Raven is a reference to what the class was called in, I think, 2nd edition.


It can be a reference to whatever it wants, but it still sounds like a supermove from a badly translated japaese fighting game.


Not that that's a bad thing.

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Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:38 pm

Ah, reminiscence. I remember when people complained about 3e, too! Someday we'll look back on this and laugh, and laugh, and laugh.

I personally can't wait to see what they're planning for psionics. But then again, Dark Sun is very near and dear to my heart.
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"Anything that might be of interest to Slitscan. Which is to say, anything that might be of interest to Slitscan's audience. Which is best visualized as a vicious, lazy, profoundly ignorant, perpetually hungry organism craving the warm god-flesh of the anointed. Personally I like to imagine something the size of a baby hippo, the color of a week-old boiled potato, that lives by itself, in the dark, in a double-wide on the outskirts of Topeka. It's covered with eyes and it sweats constantly. The sweat runs into those eyes and makes them sting. It has no mouth, Laney, no genitals, and can only express its mute extremes of murderous rage and infantile desire by changing the channels on a universal remote. Or by voting in presidential elections."
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Unread postby Idran1701 » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:32 pm

PriamNevhausten wrote:Ah, reminiscence. I remember when people complained about 3e, too! Someday we'll look back on this and laugh, and laugh, and laugh.


Yeah, but the difference is the people that complained about 3e were wrong. :D

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Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:15 pm

Maybe. I'm of the opinion that if you want everything to be just the same, then, well, you still have 3e. And if you want some of the elements of 4e but not all, then you can homebrew it. And if you want a twisted amalgam of nonsense, play Secret of Zir'An rules in CP2020 using the RuneQuest character archetypes.
"You haven't told me what I'm looking for."
"Anything that might be of interest to Slitscan. Which is to say, anything that might be of interest to Slitscan's audience. Which is best visualized as a vicious, lazy, profoundly ignorant, perpetually hungry organism craving the warm god-flesh of the anointed. Personally I like to imagine something the size of a baby hippo, the color of a week-old boiled potato, that lives by itself, in the dark, in a double-wide on the outskirts of Topeka. It's covered with eyes and it sweats constantly. The sweat runs into those eyes and makes them sting. It has no mouth, Laney, no genitals, and can only express its mute extremes of murderous rage and infantile desire by changing the channels on a universal remote. Or by voting in presidential elections."
--Colin Laney and Kathy Torrance, William Gibson's Idoru

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Unread postby Ganonfro » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:50 pm

I'm with Priam on this. I'm going to run my campaign 4th ed until I feel like changing some things to be more 3rd, since I know the mechanics much better than this. Seriously, I see no real downsides to the game until I start running it and finding out exactly how different it is when players start doing their usual testing the waters. Until we start playing it, I still think it's an amazing change.

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Unread postby Idran1701 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:33 am

PriamNevhausten wrote:Maybe. I'm of the opinion that if you want everything to be just the same, then, well, you still have 3e. And if you want some of the elements of 4e but not all, then you can homebrew it. And if you want a twisted amalgam of nonsense, play Secret of Zir'An rules in CP2020 using the RuneQuest character archetypes.


That was a joke. You might remember I was fairly outspoken about 3e myself just a few years ago. :D

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Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:48 am

Well, yeah. But the point contributes to the discussion regardless.

FURTHER THOUGHTS

It seems that CON is the new dump stat? How worrisome! (Warlocks, I think, have powers based on CON, so that issue notwithstanding.)

It seems that heavy armor WAYYY outweighs the benefits of light armor. How also worrisome!
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Jak Snide
 
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Unread postby Jak Snide » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:56 am

Con affects some fighter powers, I believe.

And heavier armour only slows you by 1 square/5 feet now, which is half of what it used to.

Also: Wisdom based fighters wielding reach weapons. Apparently the way forward, or something.

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Justice Augustus
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Unread postby Justice Augustus » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:17 am

Con may seem to be a dump stat until you get hit. My players saw that even low level monster can bring the pain. A level 1 soldier could bring up to 15 damage in a single hit. Dump Con at your own peril.

Anyway, a good DM plays to his players strengths and weaknesses in order to keep it interesting.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:44 pm

Con felt like more of a dump stat in 3.5e, if you're asking me. Okay, sure, you can have HUEG HP....but once you got stuff to mitigate saves (especially anything related to the Diamond Mind discipline from ToB), it's not as necessary.

Then again, Swordsages can also get Baffling Defense, and Warblades Wall of Blades. So, uh...

...okay, enough ToB9S.

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PriamNevhausten
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Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:19 pm

Well, I mean, it would be less of a dump stat if you continued to get more hit points based on con mod at each level as in previous editions, instead of just once at first level. Your Fort defense can come from strength instead of con, many classes don't have many abilities that use con as a relevant ability...I dunno. It seems to me that unless you're a class with powers that rely on con, its usefulness drops exponentially as you go up in levels.
"You haven't told me what I'm looking for."
"Anything that might be of interest to Slitscan. Which is to say, anything that might be of interest to Slitscan's audience. Which is best visualized as a vicious, lazy, profoundly ignorant, perpetually hungry organism craving the warm god-flesh of the anointed. Personally I like to imagine something the size of a baby hippo, the color of a week-old boiled potato, that lives by itself, in the dark, in a double-wide on the outskirts of Topeka. It's covered with eyes and it sweats constantly. The sweat runs into those eyes and makes them sting. It has no mouth, Laney, no genitals, and can only express its mute extremes of murderous rage and infantile desire by changing the channels on a universal remote. Or by voting in presidential elections."
--Colin Laney and Kathy Torrance, William Gibson's Idoru

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Jak Snide
 
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Unread postby Jak Snide » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:28 pm

After taking a look around I'm inclined to agree with Priam. A good score helps out alot at first level, but beyond that it has few universal uses.

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Ganonfro
 
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Unread postby Ganonfro » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:28 pm

I believe the only one it really benefits is a Warlock. That's it.

But then again, we know 3 more classes are coming, and con sounds like a Barbarian, and possibly Druid stat.

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PriamNevhausten
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Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:54 am

I was actually thinking monk more than druid. But we shall see.

I'm still kind of wooga'd about the whole armor thing. Why would anyone NOT use the hugest armor they can afford?
"You haven't told me what I'm looking for."
"Anything that might be of interest to Slitscan. Which is to say, anything that might be of interest to Slitscan's audience. Which is best visualized as a vicious, lazy, profoundly ignorant, perpetually hungry organism craving the warm god-flesh of the anointed. Personally I like to imagine something the size of a baby hippo, the color of a week-old boiled potato, that lives by itself, in the dark, in a double-wide on the outskirts of Topeka. It's covered with eyes and it sweats constantly. The sweat runs into those eyes and makes them sting. It has no mouth, Laney, no genitals, and can only express its mute extremes of murderous rage and infantile desire by changing the channels on a universal remote. Or by voting in presidential elections."
--Colin Laney and Kathy Torrance, William Gibson's Idoru

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Justice Augustus
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Unread postby Justice Augustus » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:29 pm

No Dex/Int bonus to armour class at all when you wear any heavy armour.

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PriamNevhausten
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Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:04 pm

And the highest your INT bonus can realistically get is, what, +5, +6 in an extreme case? And the difference between big-light armor and I-am-a-brick-shithouse armor is like fifteen AC points? Man, I don't mind losing my INT bonus to AC in that case.
"You haven't told me what I'm looking for."
"Anything that might be of interest to Slitscan. Which is to say, anything that might be of interest to Slitscan's audience. Which is best visualized as a vicious, lazy, profoundly ignorant, perpetually hungry organism craving the warm god-flesh of the anointed. Personally I like to imagine something the size of a baby hippo, the color of a week-old boiled potato, that lives by itself, in the dark, in a double-wide on the outskirts of Topeka. It's covered with eyes and it sweats constantly. The sweat runs into those eyes and makes them sting. It has no mouth, Laney, no genitals, and can only express its mute extremes of murderous rage and infantile desire by changing the channels on a universal remote. Or by voting in presidential elections."
--Colin Laney and Kathy Torrance, William Gibson's Idoru

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Jak Snide
 
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Unread postby Jak Snide » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:09 pm

Don't you need the correct feats to use said armour?

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