Forum Update

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PriamNevhausten
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Forum Update

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:28 am

So, recent forum issues have brought about discussion.



Short version:
RPGWW is not dead. But it's also not the same as it was four years ago. This is evident just by looking at the admin list. Gus is largely absent. Brian has developed some sort of strange busyness-apathy. Dia has Life now, and can't be expected to be online or participatory with terrible regularity. It is not a complete solution, but a proposition is made: RPGWW's power structure needs an update.

As a first, protosuggestion, I submit that Kai and Idran are administratorship-worthy. Kai because she spans the spam/art/RP boundaries, and seems very willing to put forth a good deal of effort to the betterment of the community; and Idran because recent events have shown that he really does care for RPGWW and I have little doubt that he would be capable of doing anything but good for us.

Let this be stated, that this is not a proposed overthrow of existing admins. And if you have any other ideas, even if they're not related to this particular proposition, then do feel free to use this thread as a submission ground.

RPGWW has begun to stagnate. What are we going to do about it? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=priamnevhausten]PriamNevhausten
&nbsp; Image at: 6/10/06 5:29

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Shinigori V2
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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:33 am

As some may know, I'm already planning a massive RP, in which I'll literally take all comers, newbie or oldblood. With this, I hope to spur the RPing community back to action and unstagnate Gaera. All that remains is getting the proper pieces into the proper places. <p>
<div style="text-align:center">What's wrong with this ring?!</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=shinigoriv2>Shinigori]&nbsp; Image at: 6/10/06 5:59

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:04 am

TheWaiChibiAngel: *Furthermore, I ask, why bother?*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I mean, Luj and Doc are gone. Why not let everyone get that sort of authority.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I can already tell you, certain people will not be happy with the current arrangement.*
OMG Priam: That's a good point, actually, and I'm not entirely sure why not. Most of the people on the forum, the current regulars as it were, I trust to not be stupid with that kind of thing.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Precisely.*
OMG Priam: *adds that to the thread, because he doesn't have a good answer*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *And think of it this way.

The funniest threads on the forum involve everyone being an admin.*
OMG Priam: This is true, but they are funny because everyone is using adminship like some kind of toy to play around with.
OMG Priam: Which, for the purposes of those threads, it is, mind you.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *This is true, but during those times, people behave.*
OMG Priam: Quite.
OMG Priam: Well, largely.
TheWaiChibiAngel: Idran1701: You mean everyone on the board?
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I mean everyone that's not stupid that's left. Meaning, yeah, everyone. Furthermore, should something happen, we've got Gus still. I still see him.*
OMG Priam: I have to admit, having the whole thing as a self-governing system in the truest sense is an appealing consideration.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *As Kai said, when everyone's on the same level, we don't have admins, just comrads.* <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=priamnevhausten>PriamNevhausten</A]&nbsp; Image at: 6/10/06 6:10

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Kai
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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby Kai » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:12 am

TheWaiChibiAngel: *Make everyone equal, and you lose the issue entirely. And I trust all of our regular posters not to be stupid.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *And think of it this way. The funniest threads on the forum involve everyone being an admin.*
Lithaladhwen: True.
Lithaladhwen: Then we don't have admins, we have Comrades.
Lithaladhwen: I see what you mean.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Precisely.*
Lithaladhwen: The reason we're suggesting new people is that the old admins aren't doing a whole lot at this point. None of us has the heart to strip an admin of his/her status, because that's too...something. I don't know. Too far. So what ends up happening is adding more people and potentially upsetting that balance. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:14 am

I'm seeing that as potentially working a bit like the whole Unspoken access bit is.

What worries me about that scenario is the New People thing. If they're not admins like everyone else, will they be less likely to stay? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:17 am

If they understand the system, I doubt it would be too hard to convince them. <p>
<div style="text-align:center">What's wrong with this ring?!</div></p>

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:21 am

I guess it would also help since the list of Admins isn't typically very loudly advertised. Hell, how long did Zero go without being recognized as an Admin? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:29 am

I'm putting my full support behind this idea as well. I'm sure that we can trust everyone here to wield it responsibly, and in the unlikely worst-case scenario, we de-admin them permanently and get the ezBoard admins to put back some threads. <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby E Mouse » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:22 am

Only problem I see with this is that it nukes the funfactor of the 'post war' threads. But then again, they've gotten so rare now that the point is largely moot.

Now, by admin-ship, I assume it's meant 'the ability to edit and/or delete any post?' Because if everyone had access to the forum layout/defaults/etc options, things could be a LOT messier to 'clean up.'

Then again, it improves the likelihood of amusing edits, so who knows? Maybe this will work out well. Especially after the first week or two when everyone abuses it the first chance they get. <p>


<span style="font-size:xx-small;">"Their rhetoric... You didn't put communists in his bed did you!" came Amber's indignant reply.

"Why not? All I had to do was open a gate to his bed and stick up a sign saying 'Hot virgin willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of international socialist fraternity.'"</span>

<span style="color:blue;font-size:xx-small;">Excaliburned:</span> <span style="font-size:xx-small;">Ah yes, I'm thinking of having the USS Bob be preserved outside the Arena as a monument of sorts</span></p>

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:29 am

I'm fairly certain it's full admin-ship. The idea is that the people here are responsible enough to not do anything to cause permanent harm for fun. <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby Choark » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:37 am

My response is:

Well, if you want to do that, then sure, okay.
I mean, if I had adminship when the 666 member came around I would of so messed about with the background and colours so God knows what horrible ideas I'll get later with what comes around. Sometimes its good to have the limits there just so ya can't cross that 'line'.

Though I honestly doubt its going to change much for me, if anything at all, and its not like I've been a boiling rage of jelousy because other people have adminship and not me either nor have I not been taking part in RP's because of it. Plus I've never thought of anyone 'higher' then me or anything just because they are a admin. Was I meant to? I basically thought we were comrades/mates/buddies/people-who-like-a-laugh-and-enjoy-each-others-company anyway.

So, eh, sure. I don't mind if you make new admins or make us a community of admins if that whats decided. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> </div></p>

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Kai
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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby Kai » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:09 am

As a pre-emptive (and possibly unnecessary note), it would be great if we could set aside the "Kai is a powerhungry underhanded schemer" viewpoint long enough to take something into consideration.

Despite my Devil's Advocate position above, I don't know that it's the best idea to have mass crowds of admins. I can see the reasoning behind that suggestion, but there's a reason you generally only have a few people who can go around editing and deleting what other people post. I think that particular admin power is currently really abused, and giving that power to larger groups of people will certainly not fix that.

So what if I don't think everyone should be an admin? If we want to take it to its furthest logical conclusion (which someone else will do after this if I don't do it now), does that mean I don't have absolute faith and trust in every member of this community? Maybe it does. As a further contention, I bet no one else here has absolutely unconditional faith in all RPGWWers either, and I bet there are people here who can turn around and say they don't have faith in me. It's just hard to say it without offending someone, isn't it?

So, if I'm willing to assert that not everyone can be trusted with admin powers, someone has to make that call, right? Everyone will always think that it should be them, because as a general rule any human being will place more faith in what they've reasoned out for themselves, place more faith in their own judgement. Furthest logical conclusion would suggest that I think it should be me. The key point is that I'm willing to admit this, and it's the reason why no one person is stepping up to make that call alone. If someone wanted to get themselves appointed admin without consulting anyone (or even letting anybody know), it's been proven conclusively by Zero that such a thing is possible. That isn't what's happening.

I still agree with Priam that having new admins is good. I disagree with having a bunch of admins who only want to screw around with their delete-edit powers. I also want to know what being an admin is supposed to mean. There seems to be an affection for purely ceremonial adminship. I don't want to be the one advocating that we de-admin anybody, but how about an example. Why is Adam an admin? How often is he around? If we can accept for a moment that limiting the number of admins has advantages, what good is it doing anyone to have a necessarily-limited number of admins populated by anyone who just plain isn't around?

I'd like to reiterate that the purpose of this thread is to re-organize RPGWW's "political" structure in order to allow the community some room to grow and evolve again. That's why we're here. If you present a solution, that's the problem you're solving.
<ul>
*I'll believe that everyone should have admin status when I have any indication it will do anything more productive than give people more chances to prank each other. This is irrelevant to the discussion because it doesn't solve the problem at hand.

*I will believe that we should keep all our collection of admins the same when I have any indication that ceremonial (or in some cases, memorial) adminship is doing anything but perpetuating the problem.
</ul>
If there's some flaw in my logic, feel free to point it out. But it seems to me the "make everyone an admin" plan rests on an assertion that everyone here trusts everyone else and on top of that does little to solve the problem we're trying to sort out. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A]&nbsp; Image at: 6/10/06 11:16

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Re: Forum Update

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:43 pm

That had occurred to me, as well. A lot of the whole administrator-change thing is symbolic, in the sense that the community is changing. The rest of it is the availability issue. And I do get the feeling that making everyone an admin, able to change *everything* about the board, would probably result in some sort of disaster. Not everyone *needs* to be an admin.

Actually factually, we don't truly *need* new admins, but I figure it would be a good consideration to Gus, who is only recently back; Dia, who has more important things going on and doesn't want to be bugged about admin things every time she's online; and DM, who is still around with some regularity and would be the one beseeched the most for the vast majority of admin-related things. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I feel

Unread postby Capntastic » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:43 pm

I'm cool with whoever being an admin so long as they're not jerks about it. Idran and Kai would most likely not be jerks. Hurray!

Furthermore, anytime concepts like political structure and whatnot come into play when discussing RPGWW I get a bit sad, because this is supposed to be a group of friends and not a democracy. We're all cool enough to self-govern, which is why I'm okay with more people being admins; but the idea that any one thing will 'cure' RPGWW is somewhat foolish.

I think it all comes down to acquiring new members without having to use lame recruitment tactics (Spamming links on other boards or whatever), or taking in absolutely everyone (Do we need another Herbie or Darkpenix?)

I have a few ideas to attain this, but I would need to refine them in my mind a bit more and run them past a few close associates before letting the public decide what they think.

But yeah: Final Point: Adminship is not a big deal, because we're all friends and understand that being an admin does not make you able to pull rank in every case. If someone's being a bastard, you can give them a silly postrank, edit posts, or temp-ban them or whatever, but that's about it. It does not make you better than anyone else, save for being one to be contacted if someone sees something going awry. More people is good, too, so long as they're not a complete nuisance. (I have to admit, I have prejudices against "ANIME WOW KAWAII" sorts of people with anime-of-the-month avatars and animated gifs, but that is merely because they tend to base their characters heavily in already established anime characters, which is often a hard process to break them out of.)




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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:49 pm

Hey, if you got ideas, even if they're in their infancy, throw 'em out here. This is the land of brainstorming.

Also, yes, it's true that 'power structure' at RPGWW is kind of weird to talk about, since we generally treat eachother like friends, which I'd like to think we kind of are. But we should have people who are able to perform admin functions who are actually around and participatory. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Capntastic » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 pm

Oh, of course, which is one of the reasons I feel I'm a good choice for adminship, since I'm on at all sorts of random hours clicking threads with reckless abandon. Thus how I was able to edit out Lloyd's dickgirl.gif before it was able to damage someone else's mind.

I'll type out the ideas later because now I have to go bye.


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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby FF Fanatic 80 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:54 pm

You're right, in an ideal world we'd all be good friends who can work out differences.

However, past events have demonstrated to me, rather clearly, that we can't.

A siutation I always think back to is the whole Malacias war argument, something I still don't think we ever recovered from. One side didn't want it, another side did, and the forumer's loyalty got fractured worse than it already was. Many people left, or slowly lost interest in the community after all the hostility. And there's been lingering resentment and hurt feelings between people ever since.

I think that's why, Priam, I can't think of the forum that way anymore. I want to think that, but I've seen the way everyone reacts to one another since then, and it's clear to me that we're far from good buddies with everyone anymore.

I keep wondering if there's some way to make peace, and just have people bury the hatchet and have fun with one another again, but I don't think there is. Something else would come up, the same people would disagree again, and we'd be in for another mess because one side thinks one way, and the other side thinks again, and neither side will compromise.

...and that's my cynical outlook for the day, wee.


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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Spleen » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:29 pm

Regardless of our real emotions, I think if we do make everyone an admin, I don't think any extant bad blood between posters will cause more problems than they do without admin priveleges. Does Shini hate me? Yes. But that hasn't led him to mess with my RPs, even though he's a forum mod for the RP forums. "Lingering resentment" is one thing, but I don't believe anyone here is quite so childish as to openly flout the social mores and etiquette inherent to the situation for the sake of a personal grudge rooted in a situation long past. <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Besyanteo » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:44 pm

I haven't read all of this. I'm very tired and just got back from a friend's house, and I haven't been able to keep up on anything. Damn you guys can crank'em out when you want to.

Anyway, I did get as far as universal adminstrator powers. I don't know about anyone else, but: I don't want them. Doc and Luj are not the first time someone here has been accused of doing something stupid they couldn't possibly have done, just to stir up trouble. I'd rather keep things that way: I don't want to be fingered for drama again because everyone can do things suddenly. It might sound stupid, but that's just how I feel. <p>
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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby E Mouse » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:52 pm

Personally, I think there are two possible good solutions for this. Either:

1. Give everyone some kind of Universal Moderator Access (i.e. can edit/delete at will on any subforum, but no access to forum layout, postrank editing, or the like), since any resentment/jackassery problems with that would be less messy to clean up after (still a bit risky, though).

2. Set up some sort of mini-council of the most active, competent, and mature people here, give them adminship, and gradually add others to the admin list if they prove they can behave themselves regardless of the situation. (Test runs as mods occurs to me as a possibility, but would mostly be a source of non-action anyway, so it wouldn't work too well.)

These are probably bad ideas, but I'll pull them out of my ass and at least throw them on the table to be scoffed at on the off chance something's worth keeping. Eh. I've been up twenty hours. I'm tired. <p>


<span style="font-size:xx-small;">"Their rhetoric... You didn't put communists in his bed did you!" came Amber's indignant reply.

"Why not? All I had to do was open a gate to his bed and stick up a sign saying 'Hot virgin willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of international socialist fraternity.'"</span>

<span style="color:blue;font-size:xx-small;">Excaliburned:</span> <span style="font-size:xx-small;">Ah yes, I'm thinking of having the USS Bob be preserved outside the Arena as a monument of sorts</span></p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Seethe347 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:11 pm

Since we're talking about making new admins, I guess it won't hurt anything if I apply. I plan on being active here for all of the foreseeable future and I usually check pretty much any new thread that shows up on the board. Also, I don't feel any resentment towards anyone here, so I'm not going to be vindictive or anything. So, if you need more admins, you could always make me one. The worst that could happen is that I wouldn't be anything more than another set of eyes to watch for drive-by spam and dirty pictures.

Also, since we're wanting to update our power structure, It should help that I am one of the newer oldbies. I wasn't around for some of the earliest stuff or even the Malacias war, so my mind should be pretty good with new ideas.

So, yeah, this post is just a campaign ad for myself. Whee.


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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:35 pm

Well, really, let's not get obsessed with the idea of admins as the superior, elite force of RPGWW, because that's not the way it is at all. Admins are the ones chosen to do a job, and that's all--it's a duty, not an honor. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:47 pm

And as such, I don't trust myself to do the admin job properly. I know myself well enough for that, anyway. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:06 pm

Some notes on Kai's post:

Quote:

As a further contention, I bet no one else here has absolutely unconditional faith in all RPGWWers either



All current RPGWWers? I do, to the respect that I have faith that none of them would act in a permanently destructive manner towards another person here.

Quote:
So, if I'm willing to assert that not everyone can be trusted with admin powers, someone has to make that call, right? Everyone will always think that it should be them, because as a general rule any human being will place more faith in what they've reasoned out for themselves, place more faith in their own judgement.


I'd have to disagree with this as well. I'll admit that I'd like to help the community in such a manner, but
that doesn't mean I'm entirely certain I am actually the best choice.

Quote:

I also want to know what being an admin is supposed to mean. There seems to be an affection for purely ceremonial adminship. I don't want to be the one advocating that we de-admin anybody, but how about an example. Why is Adam an admin? How often is he around? If we can accept for a moment that limiting the number of admins has advantages



I don't see a problem with ceremonial adminship, personally, nor do I necessarily agree that limiting the number of admins has its advantages. What advantages would that have? I'd say having more admins would be a larger advantage, by, for one, lessening response time in the rare case of an actual incident.

And as for the ceremonial/not issue, why not have said power distributed over the entirety of the board? My own argument against it aside, by your own admission no one would be entirely objective in this nature. Thus, no one is qualified to choose who would be best to "lead" the board. So have no leaders at all; work communally rather than governmentally. However, it is still not only necessary but required to have admins for various purposes. Thus, make everyone an admin, and you continue to have no true leaders. <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:09 pm

I know *I* for one don't 100% trust everyone on here with that level of power, actually, for what it's worth. And really, that's why I brought it up originally as you and Kai being big admin candidates, because you two seem to have the right level of responsibility and involvement and rightfulness of intent. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Nakibe » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:09 pm

I trust you all to make me your Agent of Oppression in future times. After all, who else has better delusions of grandeur than the lurker? >:P

But eh, in all seriousness Admins should be rare if only to make their interference that much more notable. Our current admins aren't exactly doing a bad job, just that we've got only a scant few of them who currently have the time to do what is needed around here at times.

I don't think universal modship is the solution either. We're JUST BIG ENOUGH that doing so would have potential problems. Not to mention all the horrors that can result when everyone except the new people are mods if there ever arises any drama between them. <p><span style="font-size:small;">

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:15 pm

Why does their interference have to be notable, though?

And also on the matter of 100% faith in the other members here; even for those that don't possess it, fact is anything anyone could do here could be rolled back by the ezAdmins.

Edit: I will admit that this could result in even greater friction between new members and the rest of the community. But I think at the least it's worth a trial run. <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=idran1701>Idran1701</A] at: 6/10/06 19:19

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:18 pm

True, but why do we even need to go to that step? Shifting our administratorship will accomplish the same thing. Already there isn't very much of a distinction between 'unpriviledged' users, mods, and admins. I still forget when FD posts that he's a mod, and he moderates the same damn forum I do. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Kai » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:22 pm

I don't care so much about "postrank abuse," but I disapprove of editing/deleting anything anyone else has posted unless it's blatantly inappropriate like the dickgirl thing. It's one thing to add something at the bottom of someone else's post and leave the original material, but I don't like the idea of everyone being able to alter everything else everyone has posted. There should be some sense that when you post something on the forum someone won't come along behind you and fuck it up out of spite and/or boredom.

If someone else here, like Idran, truly believes that everyone here can be trusted, that's fine. I disagree, and I think most of the people advocating universal modship in this thread are being kind of insincere. It's not that having fewer mods will eliminate all abuse completely forever and ever, but as Shaun said, "Admins should be rare if only to make their interference that much more notable."

Another point that Phil brought up.

PsychoWarden2002: Eventually it'll get misused and someone will take it too seriously, and then EVERYTHING will go to shit.
Lithaladhwen: Exactly.
PsychoWarden2002: "Oh no, that post was serious! Why the fuck did you edit it?" "'cuz it's funny." "FUCK YOU!" *community explodes* <p>-------------------------
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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:24 pm

But there's still the problem of who decides where to shift the administratorship to. You've argued for me and Kai, sure, but what about anyone else here? If there is no real difference between regular users, mods, and admins socially, then isn't everyone qualified? <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:25 pm

Social roles are not the same as personal responsibility and senses of duty. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Kai » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:45 pm

I like the idea of having a newcomers' forum, but I haven't seen the way other sites have made that work, so it's largely uninformed approval on my part.

Also, this needs to not turn into "why I should be an admin" posts.

I refuse to lobby to become an admin. I've already stated that my intention is to do whatever I can to make new people feel more comfortable here. I am not the expert on getting them here but the status quo of meeting new folks (at best) with a few dismissive links to the Gaera Guide isn't going to work. I'm not the only one who should be working on being more supportive of new people, but I think an admin is better suited to that kind of role than a baseline-forumer. This isn't something that only I can do, but somebody has to do it and no one is stepping up.

Idran1701: That seems like a good idea, Kai, but that puts a lot on one person.
Lithaladhwen: Idran: Not really. All I have to do is be nicer and/or more supportive than we have been. That's FUCKING EASY.

I'll let someone else handle the matter of getting new people to the forum. For now, all I can offer is the willingness to handle them differently once they get here, however they get here. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Re: I don't have any idea what's going on but here's what I

Unread postby Seethe347 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:47 pm

Maybe we don't need any changes in administration. We mostly just need to figure out how to get (and keep) more members, don't we?

Edit:

Quote:
Also, this needs to not turn into "why I should be an admin" posts.


If I had seen any possibility of this thread turning into that, I wouldn't have made mine earlier. As it is, though, I'm not going to make any secret of the fact that I definitely wouldn't turn down being an admin. Of course, I'm kind of a minor participant, so it's not likely to happen, but it was about the only idea I had at the time.

Then again, it probably wouldn't help anything if the current admins aren't particularly overburdened.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seethe347>Seethe347</A] at: 6/10/06 20:59

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The Gus Speaks

Unread postby Justice Augustus » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:36 pm

Well, a little history on the whole current list of admins.

Myself - I created the EZboard. At the time I was pretty damn addicted to this community and loving it. The old board went down after a period of generally terrible service (lots of crashes if I'm recalling correctly) and while everyone was putting forth ideas in the chat I just went to ezboard and signed up. No experience in foruming (although now I have plenty from this board and a few others) but I just saw that something needed to be done and I did it. To be honest I'm still surprised to this day that I haven't been removed from the list (unless that's because my ezOP status prevents this) for a multitude of reasons, year-long absences being the core. Although, to this day, my addiction to the internet and almost 24/7 online status means that barely a month goes by without a message from an older member asking for a title chance or a thread moderation (ah those 4am calls to action). I still, and have since the beginning, been willing to stand aside for others, but I think nobody's really minded my status (except for the second day of the board, where I tried to make one colour change and made the entire board yellow and had a very panicked minute or two begging the other admins to figure out what I had done).

I think (it was a long time ago) I then made DM and Dia admins, partly because to me at the time they were RPGWW. I then sat back and people were added, promoted, and otherwise sorted around as needed. To be honest you guys require very little modding at all, and most of my modding time is changing post ranks (which taught me html! Joy!) and moving threads to more appropriate forums.

To get to my point, there is no need for new admins or moderators. However, I believe that a change is usually a good thing, and I understand that the two in question (Kai and Idran) are deserving. I feel that Priam's recommendation (along with what I've seen from others) is enough for me. I'd like to remind people this is not some kind of corporation, where promotion is only possible by removing those in the way. Adminship, to me, simply means that this person is trustworthy and has devoted a considerable amount of time to keeping this community alive. This is not a case of "we need new admins" but I think should be seen as a reward to these two and a sign that RPGWW is still growing and alive.

However, with my frequent absences, I don't know ow much weight my voice carries any more. Just my thoughts on the matter. <p>

"Moreover, when on the following night, much to his dismay, [Caesar] had a dream of raping his own mother, the soothsayers greatly encouraged him by their interpretations of it: namely, that he was destined to conquer the earth" - Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars - Julius Caesar, chapter 7</p>

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Re: The Gus Speaks

Unread postby Kai » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:19 pm

Gus and I are talking about reinstating a Newcomers' Forum on RPGWW. Thoughts?

I think that having a newcomers' forum is a good idea, because even if they only post there once and never again... that's what they do now isn't it? Where's the loss? If nothing else, they're all posting in one place instead of spamming other people's RPs.

We should include some stickied threads/links to information about RP ettiquette, forum background, behavior to avoid, list of people to contact with questions/comments/needs of any forum-related sort.

For one thing, I think it will help make newcomers feel like there might be a place for them here. As another point, it would put all the resources they need in one place so that instead of greeting them by linking all the things they should have read before bothering the Powers That Be... we can offer them help, support, something. Whether they care enough to take what we offer or not isn't the point. If we want new people around, we should make it easier to be a new person. A Newcomers' Forum doesn't seem like it would require any sacrifices on our part, and it really could help. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Re: The Gus Speaks

Unread postby Seethe347 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:38 pm

As I recall, the Newbie Forum got deleted because people were being mean to the newbies who didn't do everything exactly the way they were supposed to. However, I also seem to recall that the number of new people showing up plummetted immediately after that. It could just be a coincidence, but it seems like the forum just drew people on its own somehow.


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Re: The Gus Speaks

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:43 pm

Personally? As long as we keep certain people who enjoy(ed) harassing the newbies on leashes, I'm all for it. Admittedly, I'm not good with helping the new people or whatnot, but it DID draw an assload of traffic when it was up.

...of course, assholes chased the traffic off as fast as it came. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>

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Re: The Gus Speaks

Unread postby Justice Augustus » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:53 pm

The Newcomers Forum is now up and running. As for people hazing newcomers or anything like that, Idran and Kai will be acting as moderators.
<p>

"Moreover, when on the following night, much to his dismay, [Caesar] had a dream of raping his own mother, the soothsayers greatly encouraged him by their interpretations of it: namely, that he was destined to conquer the earth" - Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars - Julius Caesar, chapter 7</p>

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Re: The Gus Speaks

Unread postby Zemyla » Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:19 pm

My take on this is to look at Wikipedia. Everyone is in effect a moderator, since they can edit stuff freely. However, you still have super-admins to take care of real business.

Of course, the main difference is that there is an edit history, so someone can restore a post that they spent hours on if someone goes "Lolz this needs a funny image". <p>-----
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Re: The Gus Speaks

Unread postby pd Rydia » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:50 pm

Personally, I think the idea of universal adminship--even universal modship--is a pretty bad one--even horrible.

Everyone has their own vision of what RPGWW should be like. I should know, because people come to me to tell me what I should do in their proxy.

As far as simple modship is concerned, I see a potential for erasing threads and posts--because some people just can't bear the possibility of having shown that they've embarassed themselves. The only thing is, they really haven't, and they would want to delete a thread which is actually interesting for others to read. Or, perhaps, every post by a certain Lamer should be deleted, because that would be Oh So Funny; but then, we're deleting the history of their infractions, if we need it for later reference. And, of course, in postwars, some of us know how just plain irritating it is to be left out of what has been erased in edits.

As for admin powers--there's some bad stuff, there. Firstly, the ezOp would have to be someone of absolute trust, and always around; the ezOp is the only poster who can't be banned. Right now, Gus is the ezOp, and it kinda makes me nervous.

Some of our posters just don't see any problem with some of our more untrustworthy transients--Shaun's stalker, for instance, was "just fine" with one of our chatters because "he never caused him any trouble." Can you see how someone like that could ask the right person and get admin status? And really fuck things up?

Now, assuming that we keep admin status amongst all the Trusted, there's still the matter that all the Trusted have very different ideas of what's appropriate to do with RPGWW. As one hypothetical; some of our posters want to ban for (it seems) nearly every little infraction--bad grammar, or the ambiguously defined "stupidity." This is, of course, something I'm against, given that sSome of my favorite posters would have been banned a long time ago--perhaps even myself.

Appointing new mods and admins will piss some people off, sure. But personally? I think it's a good idea, and most good ideas piss people off. Most -changes-, whether they occur or not, piss people off, period. That's part of what you need to be able to put up with as an admin. <p>
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