Kitties in the Crosshairs

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JasonAB17
 

Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby JasonAB17 » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:59 pm

I found this today.

I AM A LUNK

Sadness. :{ <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

E Mouse
 

Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby E Mouse » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:37 pm

Quote:
Every year in Wisconsin alone, an estimated 2 million wild cats kill 47 million to 139 million songbirds, according to state officials. Despite the astounding numbers, Smith's plan has been met with fierce opposition from cat lovers.


What the hell? Songbirds aren't domestic, and while they have a definite place on the food chain, they don't seem to need government protection unless their numbers are seriously threatened, in which case I'd want to see some more about their population in the area.

But then again, wild cats probably fit in even less, and are near/at the top of the local ecosystem. But killing uncollared or wild cats indescriminately is pretty brutal; imagine letting your pet out to play for a little while, and she wanders off... BANG. Dead cat, can't do a damn thing about it. Not a pretty thought.

Personally, I find that Minnesota has the best idea:

Quote:
Minnesota defines a wild, or feral, cat as one with no collar that does not show friendly behavior.


Key words on the friendly. If it's fairly clear that the stray isn't (or wouldn't make) a good animal companion, and doesn't seem to have signs of ownership, then population trimming in the same manneer as wild deer may be the practical, if somewhat saddening, thing to do...

The spay/neutering thing is also somewhat feasible, but not cost-effective. That cat's probably going to be out hunting wild critters that are supposed to be in the local ecosystem for another five years, dangit. Sure, they don't reproduce, but the new strays and abandoned domestic litters will probably keep more coming anyway... just less than if you didn't. And look at all the money going into the veterinary clinics!

Now if only people could agree on some sort of human population control... <p>-------

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby BrainWalker » Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:52 am

Oh, wonderful. How like America to solve a problem by shooting and/or bombing it.

I am disgusted that anyone at all thinks that cat hunting is something that anybody needs in any capacity. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:33 am

Save the mosquito! Did you know that several million mosquitoes are killed every year, directly by human hands??! We need to protect this unique animal, which has a history as ancient as the dinosaurs!

Translation:
"Cute" is NOT a good reason for *anything.* If the populations are getting out of control--which they are (how many times have you seen homeless cats? How many times have you been reminded to get cats spayed or neutered because they're overpopulating?)--then trimming the numbers down is reasonable.

I agree with Mus, though. I'd like to see more numbers on the songbirds, and I'd hope they put a 'friendly behavior' clause in there if it does go into effect, but hunting (aside: 'hunting' != 'shooting') sounds a LOT more merciful than cutting out their genitals and letting them lead a life which can basically be summarized as 17 years of waiting to die. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Kelne » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:56 am

Riiiiight...

Who even suggests these ideas, anyway?

For the record, I have no objection to getting rid of feral cats. There's a world of difference between them and domesticated cats. Then again, I do come from a country where we'd like nothing more than to get rid of all our undomesticated mammals.

Turning people with small game licenses loose isn't even going to make a dent in the population. After all, who's going to spend their time methodically killing feral cats (and only feral cats, mind you) without getting paid for it?

And as for spaying the cats and releasing them... Quite aside from the fact that they'll just go right on killing the birds, how, exactly, does one tell the difference between a spayed feral cat and an unspayed one? Unless you put collars or ear tags on them, you're just going to wind up catching the same damn cats.

I'm not even going to ask how feral cats became a protected species in the first place.

Heaven forefend that they might encourage responsible pet ownership and cough up the money for professionals to deal with the problem... <p>KnightsofSquare: DarkLordKelne is a tomboy bunnygirl, jealous of the business successes of her 37 older brothers, she is pursuing her own business degree in hopes of someday initiating a hostile takeover against her brothers' corporations.</p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Choark » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:22 am

You damn hippies are the people who complained when we went Rabbit bashing!

When there are animals that need a controlling, they need a controlling. So someone get me stick! Its time to cave in a few cute furry heads! <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby BrainWalker » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:27 am

The important part is how they define "wild". If feral cats really are all over the place, killing birds and digging in people's flower gardens or whatever, then perhaps it is indeed time for drastic measures. However, that "including any domestic cat that isn't under the owner's direct control" line is complete bullshit, and I would relish the opportunity to spay/neuter whoever came up with it. They need to come up with a solid distinction between "problem" cats and "okay" cats, and more importantly, make sure hunters are aware of this distinction. Cats are notorious for wanderlust, after all.

Minnesota seems to have a good idea on paper. I wonder how well it works in practice? Oh yea, and speaking of spaying/neutering, hurrah for Priam's commentary on the matter.

*sigh*

I suppose I have trouble with issues like these because I unfortunately suffer from a rather heavy bias against hunters. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=brainwalker>BrainWalker</A]&nbsp; Image at: 4/13/05 11:28

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Justice Augustus
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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Justice Augustus » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:15 pm

Well by law in England you have to have a licence for your cat, which hangs on the collar around its neck. Technically and cat without a collar is a stray, although my cats have never worn collars since they figured out how to take them off.

I don't know, maybe a two stage procedure with the cats being rounded up first, then any owned cats can be claimed before the rest are humanely put to sleep.
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"Moreover, when on the following night, much to his dismay, [Caesar] had a dream of raping his own mother, the soothsayers greatly encouraged him by their interpretations of it: namely, that he was destined to conquer the earth" - Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars - Julius Caesar, chapter 7</p>

Lauritz Melchior
 

Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Lauritz Melchior » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:28 pm

When I was in Israel, stray cats roamed all over the place. I thought that they were really cute, but some people think of them as vermin.


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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby pd Rydia » Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:28 pm

• "Minnesota defines a wild, or feral, cat as one with no collar that does not show friendly behavior."

What about electronic chips? My cat refuses to have a collar on. We have also discovered Samantha's penchant for dashing out the front door for no particular reason whatsoever (note: besides being small and closer to your feet than your hands, cats are fucking FAST). Samantha is not 'friendly' (nor is Kate--cats are fucking skittish, you could call 90% of them "unfriendly" if you had something against cats).


• "Technically and cat without a collar is a stray, although my cats have never worn collars since they figured out how to take them off." - Gus

Yes, cats do THAT, too.

And what's to stop someone from taking the collar off and throwing it away after shooting it? There are a lot of people who *hate* cats. Making it legal to kill them just makes it that much easier for them to be fuckheads, not to mention that much harder to get anything done about it.


• "I suppose I have trouble with issues like these because I unfortunately suffer from a rather heavy bias against hunters."

I've got no problem with hunters, and if people want to treat feral cats like any other unwanted rodent, then whatever. I bet cats are tasty, too.

The thing is, instituting such a law in an area like this, and most places, would be -pointless-...you'd think there'd be specific problem areas in which to put it in place. Seriously, songbirds aren't a reason to give a rat's ass--that's just one cute critter prejudice over another. Give me stuff like fucking up local ecosystems or significant endangerment of human beings. And show me that you've thought this out from the cat owner's point-of-view.

I'm with BW in that their definition of what can and can't be shot needs to be rethought. Collaring a cat is -not- as easy as collaring a dog. Cats won't come up to you wagging their tail. My cat of ten years still bites me when she's feeling cantankerous.

Note: yes, it allows "hunting." According to the article, that includes shooting. People are going to abuse this. Legally, if this were to be passed.




From the information given in the article, I don't see where this is either well-thought out OR necessary. Big shock and surprise there, I'm really sure the article meant to inform. <p>
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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Kelne » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:36 pm

Gus, you've just described the exact system we have over here. If anyone notices a stray cat hanging about over a week or so, they either catch it themselves, or call in the SPCA to do it for them. Often the cats are adopted over the course of the next week (The friendly ones, anyway), while any that remain are put to sleep.

Most of our cats have either come from the SPCA or been strays.

Dia: I tend to come down on the side of the birds, but that's just reflex. Honestly, I suspect that the cats have probably integrated themselves into the ecosystem by now. The important question is likely whether the population of feral cats is still increasing. <p>KnightsofSquare: DarkLordKelne is a tomboy bunnygirl, jealous of the business successes of her 37 older brothers, she is pursuing her own business degree in hopes of someday initiating a hostile takeover against her brothers' corporations.</p>

EKDS5k
 

Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby EKDS5k » Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:19 pm

Actually, he might be onto something with the songbird idea. It's not so much that they're cute, it's that they sing. In a big city, that's a relaxing thing against a background of cars and horns and sirens. I haven't heard a bird chirping in over four months, because Japan's cities, even the medium sized ones, are all crammed together, so there's no trees, and thus no songbirds. I think that's also the reason that a lot of the train stations are switching to chimes for when the trains leave, instead of the old loud buzzer.


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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:55 am

I agree.

I also have a hard time believing that there is going to be a massive wave of troglodytes coming out of their trailers to shoot some cats for shits and giggles. I suspect maybe one or two, but otherwise this is an 'on principle' law, most likely. I wonder how many cases of 'unauthorized cat hunting' have seen the inside of a courtroom in the past 20 years. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

JasonAB17
 

Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby JasonAB17 » Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:34 am

Eh. Most don't go to court I think. They're taken as accidents and such.

Like when I was 5, and some idiot shot out yellow Tom because either
A) He though it was a raccoon (o_o)
B) It was shagging something on his property


We'll see what happens I suppose. It's legal there now, if it gets repealed (and anyone notices as much) in the next few days or weeks, we can all rest easy in our lack of faith in humanity. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby pd Rydia » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:42 am

i really doubt cats are about to cause the eradication of songbirds. I could be wrong. Like I said, the article provides no reason why this law should exist. It throws some random "cats kill songbirds" statistic (Cats kill birds?! Oh look, a big number!) and doesn't mention whether or not there's any proposal as to whether there would be any necessary distinguishing between feral cats from domesticated cats. I hate articles like these. =/ <p>
<div style="text-align:center">"Pants are bad!!! We should wear pants only on our head you conformist bastard!!! Pants are the devils work!! Run freee!! And pantless!!!" -- Vulture</div>
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EKDS5k
 

Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby EKDS5k » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:27 am

Maybe, but I think cats have been domesticated for so long (and aren't indigenous to North America anyway) that this is essentially "introducing a foreign species into the ecosystem." Hasn't been a problem because until recently, most of the cats have had owners who provide for them. If they're allowed to run around the city, and people have no means of getting rid of them (capturing cats takes time and effort, and if it's unfriendly, can be dangerous), then they definitely pose a threat to songbirds, which have adapted nicely to life in the city.

Same thing happened recently in Australia, with camels. Lots of them were imported, for the purpose of hauling shit across the desert. Then trucks were invented, which could haul more stuff, faster, and you didn't have to care for them (as much). So the camels were released, via the thinking that "Eh, they're just camels. What're they gonna do?" and now Australia's ecosystem is facing (yet another) crisis of a foreign species eating all the plants and nothing to stop it.

On the upshot, the number of rats will also go down.


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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Kelne » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:29 am

It's depressing, really.

Problem with cats? Have people vote on whether or not they should be able to shoot them. Don't give them the facts to make an informed decision - that'll just confuse them.

Heck, why find out the facts in the first place? That just costs money. And, since implementing an actual solution to the problem (assuming it exists) would cost even more money, that's right out. <p>KnightsofSquare: DarkLordKelne is a tomboy bunnygirl, jealous of the business successes of her 37 older brothers, she is pursuing her own business degree in hopes of someday initiating a hostile takeover against her brothers' corporations.</p>

JasonAB17
 

Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby JasonAB17 » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:13 am

Welcome to American Law!

Also: More Dumb Laws!

Go have some fun, your soul! She will cry! <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

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pd Rydia
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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby pd Rydia » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:27 am

Nodding to the Doc- and the Kelne-persons.

...Camels? <p>
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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby EKDS5k » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:39 am


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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby BrainWalker » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:04 am

Image

Hey, it could be worse. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Justice Augustus » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:52 pm

Quote:
But for those camels living in remote areas inaccessible by road, Edwards said there may be little option but to shoot them from the air.


Apocalypse Now/Full Metal Jacket but with camels?

Awesome.
<p>

"Moreover, when on the following night, much to his dismay, [Caesar] had a dream of raping his own mother, the soothsayers greatly encouraged him by their interpretations of it: namely, that he was destined to conquer the earth" - Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars - Julius Caesar, chapter 7</p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Nekogami » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:23 pm

Another case of how finding a cure is a lot more costly than if people would PREVENT THE FREAKING PROBLEM!

I've heard a great deal of cat lovers claim how much they admire their cats for their independence and how cooping them up inside is cruel.

Yeah, but I'd get bitched out if I like my schnauzer loose to go hunt down some rabbits and foxes like breeding intended her to do? No way, if your going to keep an animal. ANY animal, bird, cat, fish, mongoose, yak, do NOT let it out into the wild to get in touch with its wild side.

But at any rate, this is a matter of introduced species into the wild. A nice, small sleek cat is a perfect hunter. Now, if songbird populations were not in excess then the introduction of an efficient killing machine like a domestic cat could quickly and easily tip the balance. Not to mention how troublesome it is to find dead bird and bloody feathers strewn across your lawn.

Cats ARE become rats. Both make excellent pets but they also make excellent pests. I'm all for the hunting since these feral cats lack predators and since I'm going to start breeding cats, it's also good to lessen their numbers because even though my walls will separate my cats, with the diseases wild cats carry, what if one of them got out? It could be costly. Also, if you have a house cat female in heat. Hoo boy. She'll attract every Tom within miles.

.. ... ... A pack of wild schnauzers would be hilarious...It'd be like a tribe of scots only withouth the bagpipes. (Nevermind they were bred in Germany.) <p>

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SuperRube
 

Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby SuperRube » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:21 pm

Uh... the real reason this entire thing was brought up in the first place wasn't because of some kind of song bird bullshit. It's because stray cats where seriously impacting the poultry industry.

Seriously. Heard it on the local news. <p>
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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby Kelne » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:09 pm

So, basically, the law is designed to let poultry farmers shoot stray cats. All the other people who can shoot cats are just an added bonus. <p>KnightsofSquare: DarkLordKelne is a tomboy bunnygirl, jealous of the business successes of her 37 older brothers, she is pursuing her own business degree in hopes of someday initiating a hostile takeover against her brothers' corporations.</p>

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Re: Kitties in the Crosshairs

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:23 am

Now THAT sounds like a real problem with a real solution that is really reasonable in intent, and will likely be effective in implementation. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>


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