A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

A moderated forum for more thoughtful discussion.

Moderators: pd Rydia, LadyDragonClawsEDW

Choark
 

A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Choark » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:23 pm

Read the question somewhere else and apprently it sparked off this great debate, or at least was interesting to most of the people involved. Myself I don't have too much to say on it but others might and may even find it interesting so here goes.

What keeps you going?

That age old question of "Why do you go through each day?" Do you do it because you believe better things will come? Do you do it because ya happy where you are and enjoy getting up each day? Do it you it with great reluctance and the only thing keeping ya going is the fact you're just not brave enough to stop it?

That kinda thing.

As I started it I'll go fist, though some of it is kinda morbid.

I can get up every day because I'm not dead yet. Kinda stupid as, well, Durr, obviously, not much of a reason. Well, its kinda like that. What keeps me going is I'm not dead yet, I've still got a minute, an hour or the whole day left of my life and thats good enough for me.

Being the non-spiritual person that I am, death is The End. Goodbye Cho. Goodbye memories. Goodbye, well, everything. And that terrifies me beyond any feeling I have ever been able to express with words, hand gestures, body language and facial expressions because I really really don't want to forget everything. I. Don't. Want. To. Die. But I will. One day. Its always getting closer.

However when I wake up, it means its not quite that time yet and I have to try and get through just one more day. I have one more day that I can remember everything I've ben through. One more day of being myself before its all gone forever.

Of course, in a way, it doesn't really matter when I die as no matter who or what I've been, or how long it lasted, the result is the same. But that only hits me at night. Through the day, I just try and live out my life as if it was my last day ever, making the most of each day as I want to. Have a good meal. Try to do something I want. Tell my family I love them and so on.

I have things I want to do and I really do want to be good at art to do some of the things I've been thinking of for years but that doesn't keep me going. Thats just something to do while going on.

So yeah, its thats simple for me. I go because I am still going and thats good enough for me because stopping is the worst thing ever.

...

Told ya it was morbid. Hopefully you guys and gals have more fun and explosive reasons then me! <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/5/04 19:24

The Great Nevareh
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby The Great Nevareh » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:11 am

Oooh, how... human.

I would tell the truth, but that would result in people flaming me. So I'll tell a believable and pleasant lie instead.

I wake up in the morning mostly because I become so intensely bored with being in bed that I can't stand it anymore. That's about 70% of the reason why I go on- because stopping is boring. Unless going on is boring. Then I stop and do something else.

What really drives me? I'll be damned if I know. Honestly, every moment when I don't keep myself busy, I become a pile of self-hating angst that is protected by a very hard but very thin shell of candy-flavored persona. My self-loathing is so all-encompassing that I can't even begin to show that to the real world, so I just retreat to behind my own cleverly erected defenses and shout pithy witticisms from the ramparts.

What makes me tick? Desperation. I hate who I am and what I've been, but since I'm much too weak of a human being to change any of that, I just try to claw out my day as time goes on and maybe delude myself into thinking I'm happy, when all I really end up being is inert.

Mine is the kind of heart so black and cold that it would easily devise the end of the world just to lead to an end to the eternal and self-inflicted suffering that I endure every day just because I hate myself so much. I honestly believe that when I die I'm going to hell just so I can suffer more, as that is what I deserve.

And thus I finish this post with a retreat to those ramparts that enable the simile of a normal life that I try to tell myself is real every day. Just as I tell myself that I love my parents, that they'll be around forever, and that nothing bad will ever strike close to home, I tell myself that the world is a generally fair place and that with enough hard work and dedication anything can be changed. I tell myself that it's healthy to not have any real-world interaction and that it's okay to retreat from reality so I can tell myself that I'm sane.

Of course, the truth can only be expressed in... INTERPRETIVE DANCE! <p>[---------------------------]
"There is great disorder under Heaven, and the situation is excellent."
-Mao Tse-Tung

"I eat the talking bees because I am George Washington Christ"
-From "Bob the Ball"</p>

Squintz Altec
Administrator
 
Posts: 1056
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:54 pm

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Squintz Altec » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 am

I keep myself going mostly on the principle that things get better. Like, I may not think a day has much promise, but it can still turn out really awesome. For example, I spent most of the day locked out of my room. However, soon after, a bunch of people and I walked out to the "stone circle" near my dorm, yelled "MORTAL KOMBAT" at the top of our lungs, and then charged in to beat each other with fun noodles.

Or handcuffing someone who made the mistake to go to sleep to a bed.

Or MSTing a softcore porn with a bunch of girls.

You know. Things get better, even when they seem like they can't. That gets me through each day.


User avatar
Molokidan
Yomigaeta Sushijin
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 03, 2002 11:41 pm
Location: Osaka, Japan

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Molokidan » Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:14 am

Squintz!

er, uh, anyway, what keeps me going? I dunno! I am not really too deep of a thinker. I just do it because it's natural, ya know? I don't know what else I would do besides keep going. Besides, I love life and all that good stuff. There's really no deep meaning to it! I just do it because naturally, I want to! <p>---------------

"Well slap a dead fish on me and call me Molokidan!"</p>

Choark
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Choark » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:25 am

Not thinking deep is a good thing at times *nod nod* And I enjoy the days I don't!

Of course my post up there was a morbid way of saying "I love being alive and life, so death just isn't an option" - I just filled it with downer sounding stuffs.

I actually had this cool reverlation post thing to put up that I thought of just before I went to sleep that was honestly cool and meaniful and pretty damn positive...

Unforantly the dreams of Catgirls, Kung-fu fights and a talking Atari have made me completely forget what it was. On the plus side I had a dream that involved cat-girls, huge Kung-fu fights and a talking Atari! <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

WillBaseton
Self-Proclaimed Gaming Guru
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:16 pm

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby WillBaseton » Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:47 am

Cho and I have basically the same reasons for living, heh. Although mine falls into a few categories instead of just one.

I have a pathological fear of dying alone. If anything, that concept scares me more than anything else in existence, more than planes, more than the ocean, more than nuclear war. I simply can't stand the thought of losing my final spark of life without someone there to see me off, because I know that there won't be anyone waiting for me when it's gone. I live my life to find other people to spend it with, so that nobody has to die alone. Turns out there's a movie that has a main character with the same fear as me, although he's sufficiently crazier about it than I am. What with the whole time travel thing and all.

On the other hand, I am kept going only by being around other people. I literally draw energy from being around energetic people. If the people I'm around are quiet or bored, I get bored. If the people I'm around are in good moods, it usually keeps me happy. If I'm alone, I usually fall asleep within minutes because I have nothing to pull a will to live from. When I put it out on (internet) paper, it sure does kinda feel parasitic. Weird. But regardless, that's the way I am, and I try to avoid hurting people's feelings if at all possible.

I really do love life, and the thought of suicide disgusts me in general. I went through a period where I considered it, at length, back at the end of middle school, but since then, it's been out of my mind. I believe that even if my life sucks, maybe I can use what I have to help people with theirs, which will in turn give my own life meaning again.

That's all I can think of for now. Maybe if it wasn't before 9 AM, I could think of more to say. <p>
The closer you get to light, the greater your shadow becomes.</p>

Choark
 

A lighthearted responce

Unread postby Choark » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:41 am

GadZooks!!

Wills an emotion vampire!! Does garlic work on them? Stakes? Garlic stakes!? <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

Celeste of Elvenhame
 

Re: A lighthearted responce

Unread postby Celeste of Elvenhame » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:24 am

I keep going because even when it's bad I know better days are coming. I believe I have already lived through the darkest days of my life. All the bad things that have happened have served to make me strong enough to do what needs to be done. Today I handle things better than I did in my youth. Narrow minded individuals no longer bother me as they once did. I also do not deny the parts of myself I once did not know how to handle because of the environment I grew up in.

I often feel better because I have given God control of my life. Trite and cliche as that may sound, surrendering to His will has helped me relax a lot. And those fellow Christians who are bigoted just don't bother me anymore. I know a lot of people don't understand why I follow two paths, Christianity and Wicca...but I believe God has given me the gifts I have to serve his will and to do good in this life. Part of that is giving me a path to follow with my skills that the Bible doesn't give instructions on how to handle. All things considered, I know my path in life now and I get up everyday to follow it, through the good, bad and just plain rough. That gives me peace.

Edit: Will you sound like a portion of my fellow empaths. Most of us tend to go to one extreme or another....we either feel very strongly or we have no emotion other than that what one picks up from others. It's not neccessariyl parasitic unless you draw more than what naturally comes to you, drain a person or manipulate others to get the emotions you want to feel. <p>---------------Celeste of Elvenhame ---------------

Aaron Lewis of Guildportal: On the up side though, most of the remaining bugs are genuinely evil, sentient beings that actively dodge attempts to thwart them.</p>Edited by: Celeste of Elvenhame at: 12/6/04 14:18

User avatar
pd Rydia
Moderator
 
Posts: 5269
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:12 pm
Location: Temple of Fiends

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby pd Rydia » Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:06 pm

1 -- Family, friends, Mike.

2a -- Life has proven to me that it does, in fact, get better. Furthermore, I've also proven to myself that I can improve. Holy shit!

2b -- Goals, and the desire to see what I can make of myself in the future.

3 -- Little things. Music, that really good meal here and there, good jokes, hugs from strangers, and so on. <p>
<center><small>"We are just poor, wandering corn farmers..."
Image
</p>

User avatar
Ganonfro
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:25 pm

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Ganonfro » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:20 pm

Well, the thing that keeps me going? I hate having unfinished business. By the time I'm doing one thing, I've set myself up for something else already, due to me being kinda lazy about finishing the first thing. This isn't what drives me though... it's more compulsion from time to time.

The fear of dieing unloved tends to keep me from killing myself if the situation in my life is almost completely unbarable, but hey... It's always gotten better than what I've had to deal with before, so I can't really claim that's something that drives me...

I don't honestly know right now what makes me want to stay alive. I have a good life right now. A very caring girlfriend. A fun and educational time at college. Minor debts coming to me because of college.... Everything is like what most other college goers tend to have! Yay for the middle of the line life style, lacking all the needed plot twists... that I'm willing to deny I have for right now! :D


Choark
 

Wheeeeeeeee RANT

Unread postby Choark » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:05 pm

This post only repersent MY views and I speak for no one else:

Quote:
but if death frightens you because you don't believe in an afterlife/God/whatever...er, why not decide to believe in one?


...

That is probably the most ridicilous thing I've ever heard in my entire life, and I've heard some whompers in my time. Heck, I've said some pretty stupid things in my time but... What The fuck?

You can't choose to believe in something. You can't suddenly decide "Hey, God's real" just because it makes you feel better. That isn't believing at all. Thats lying to yourself to try and make you feel better which is the WORST thing you could ever do. Ever.

If you try to convince yaself you believe in something even when you don't you'll spend most of your life lying to yourself and others all the time but when you need the reasurance or whatever it is you have this belief for it'll do nothing for you because you don't really believe in it. People will wonder why you can't cope or why it does nothing for you, or you lie about it and so get no support at all because everyone blieves ya okay.

You don't choose what you truly believe. you just.. believe in it. I don't believe in God, in any form. I have TRIED to, read up on him read up on other religions but I can't just make me go "oooh WHEEE Its all right YAHOOO I feel better".

...

Jesus man you can't be that dense. You must know how this kinda thing works. I mean, YOU believe in something right? Something that no one can shake because its what you believe in. Or rather Know. Something inside you that tells you that THIS is right no matter what. Maybe its science. Maybe its religion. Maybe its something a little different. Maybe something will change your beliefs but I bet 100% of the time its outside forces that make this change, as in peple or some random event, rather then suddenly deciding to change ya mind on something.

...

... Well with that rant out the way:

No. AM. I can't just suddenly decide to believe in God to make myself feel better. Oh what a wonderul world it would be if I could, and how much easier it all would be if I could go "Oh I don't fear that anymore because I suddenly believe Gods real! Hallelahlulah!" How you figured it be that easy is beyond me honestly.

What value is there in my belief? You have to put value to what you believe now? Everything you believe in MUST make you feel better or whatever? Jeeese. Belief is a lot of things and certainly a lot more complicated then that however... The Value of it is this, I suppose: I know it to be right. I have no doubts that'll happen when I, and everyone else, dies. I am with no mixed odds over it, I am 100% sure it'll happen. Even if I don't want it to. The value is just knowing/believeing it'll happen.

Theres this side as well. no God. No Praying. no wishing for things to get better. You make it better yourself, ask for help from other humans who are real or not. So yes, I do think praying is a complete waste of time. Yes I get very frustarted when people ask for God for help instead of sorting it out themselves. Yes I would prefure everyone sets there mind on doing there own tasks instead of expecting somethings will to make it easier for them. I believe everything we have done is our own completely. Every good and bad thing. So Yes, I do get pissed off when people put all our good achievements down to God. The value is Humans do good and do things themselves. We aren't puppets of anyones will.

That not WHY I believe it, its just what my belief has in it.

So why do I reject the idea of God or the afterlife?

Because. Its/They. Are. Not. Real.

Now I may as well say A reason why, as i'm ranting:

People see afterlife as a reward or punishment for what you did in life. Meaning, quite simply... you get a reward for being alive.

What the fuck? Why in the stars names would you get a reward for being alive!? You have nothing - before you were born you were nothing at all - then suddenly you get all these sences, sight, taste, touch, loads of them, and thoughts and feelings and memories. Out of nothing you get that. Out of nothing you get everything. So we get all these wonderful things and people expect to be REWARDED for it?

Life is its own greatest reward. How the hell anyone expects it to get better from what we got now is just stupid. - and yes.. misery.. yes.. suffering. We do it. Other animals do it. Random events do it. Not exactly lifes fault. Perhaps if people valued it more they wouldn't be so clumbsy with other peoples lives. And bad luck happens.

also I have this thing were I've read up on History of the bible: And I know its been changed far too much that we'll never see its orginal format.. and it has changed that much... And I also understand people need to think they'll be rewarded to actually Do anything at times. So heaven for the good people who do what the chruch says and Hell for those who don't. A good way to get people into gear and follow you.

and I'm stopping thre as this isn't really supposed to be me going against religion thread.

...

Wow. AM sure opened something in me there.

Edit/Ammendment:

Right as an extra note that no one will care about but I may as well put this on in case someone does.

Praying and the being a waste of time thing. Praying is only a waste of time in my view due to the fact God isn't there to listen so will achieve nothing in that sence HOWEVER for those who believe its talking to someone, getting support from someone and/or filling you taken some of the burden off your sholders (cause God will hopefully give a helping hand of somesort) so you can carry on. People feel better after praying, or is a good way to get there fears out or... Well... Whatever... not the resisdent expert on the subject. So I can understand why people do it and I know its not a complete waste of time for them and if praying once or twice a week/day makes getting through life all the more easier for them then Its Not A Waste Of Time.

Thats all I wanted to add. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/7/04 4:14

Archmage144
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:15 pm

I have a weird brand of cynical optimism that keeps me motivated most of the time. When things are sucking, I find myself laughing at the circumstances as much as I possibly can, picking myself up, laughing a little more, and then doing whatever it takes to move on to the next obstacle. I'm a firm believer that all things in mortal life are short-lived, good and bad, and therefore, it's your job to recognize that the bad stuff is over before you know it and hold onto those fleeting good things for as long as you possibly can. I do my best to stay self-sufficient and independent, but I simultaneously cling to my friends and immerse myself in hobbies and activities that have meaning to me while trying to fulfill some level of responsibility--in other words, as I fully intend to be an individual capable of providing for himself in society, I have an impetus to attain some sort of degree (in particular, a PharmD). I'm not sure what else might fit into the description of "what keeps me going," because I honestly find it to be a question that has a fairly simple answer. What else is there to do? Any opposing attitude is biologically counterproductive and maladaptive (i.e., insane). Sure, I could lie in bed all day, skip class, lock myself in my room, commit suicide, etc., but none of those are horribly productive activities. What would the point be? Being alive is an opportunity to accomplish something--and by accomplish something, I mean find satisfaction in something, regardless of what that means to the individual. There is no long-term benefit to doing anything else.

Incidentally, if I died for some reason, or were certain I was going to die, while I think my last thought prior would be, "damn, why now?" I don't think I'd have any fear or worry about the whole thing. Dying is definitely last on my list of fears--hell, it's probably not on there to begin with. Sure, on one hand, it would suck, but my concern would mostly be for others as opposed to myself. "Gah. My parents and friends are going to miss me." On the other, I'd be more or less nonchalant about it. There isn't much I'd regret not doing or not getting the chance to do, so I have to figure that one could argue that I feel that there is a sense of completeness to my life. My personal beliefs don't necessarily assure me of some lofty afterlife, but I simultaneously don't believe that there's such a thing as "hell" except for people whose sole purpose in life is to cause pain to others. Why is everyone so afraid of death? I'm dreadfully confused as to why anyone can be frightened by something so simple as the end of their mortal life. Opting not to believe in a higher form of existence doesn't actually rule out the possibility of an "afterlife"--death may well be an eternally long "nap," with the final moments of your life being stretched out over a seemingly infinite time period.

On that note, and not to make a personal attack at any previous poster, but if death frightens you because you don't believe in an afterlife/God/whatever...er, why not decide to believe in one? I know that sounds ridiculous on one hand, but when you really think about it, if your greatest fear stems from a personal perception, why not try to believe something else that happens to be more comforting instead? What value is there in rejecting the idea of God/the afterlife/whatever if all it does is cause you fear and pain? I have a feeling that this might lead to a slightly different vein of discussion, but it's a question I'd like to see answered in some form or another... <p>
<div style="text-align:center">Image</div>

</p>

User avatar
Nakibe
Lady Malix wills your demise!
 
Posts: 1214
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:51 am

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Nakibe » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:14 pm

What keeps me going through the days of stuff and Things? Simple. A sense of purpose. I have always believed that there is some task out there that I was set here to complete. Granted, I don't know exactly what that task is ... that's something that I have to eventually find out some day. In the meantime I try to help people when I can and generally try to do the best I can at whatever I do. *shrugs*


User avatar
Reako Somner
Always sleepy, never asleep
 
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:09 pm
Location: Look, I don't know anymore

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Reako Somner » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:54 pm

Video games.

Seriously though, I just do whatever to spend time, so long as it isn't mentally damaging. I don't think ahead too often, and if I do I have to write it down. What keeps me going is mostly entertainment. Once entertainment is gone I sit down and sigh alot. I am honestly pretty lazy and I only work if I absolutely have to. But I'm not so lazy as to not-work. Also, in terms of death, it's not death that I fear, but the pain that might be involved in it. So, I am more afraid of how I will die, not when. Why? Cause I'm a wuss. I want to go with old-age while I am asleep, not by being mauled by an animal, crushed, stabbed, being shot and bleeding everywhere etc. Thoughts of such things make me VERY faint and uncomfortable, my worst fear of all being burrowing worm-like parasites. EEEeeeeee.

Anyway what keeps me going is Entertainment. That might seem shallow but that's how it is. I have no real set goals, as long as I have a job and the money to pay the bills so that I may keep on livin'.

Spreading the word of God from time to time doesn't hurt either.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=reakosomner>Reako] at: 12/6/04 19:02

User avatar
PriamNevhausten
Holy Order of the Crimson Ballpoint
 
Posts: 2854
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2002 4:10 pm

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:07 am

The status quo. I have no great, overwhelming wants for the future. I have only the slightest hope that things will improve without my direct intervention--intervention which will not happen because I am not dissatisfied enough, by and large, with my current situation. Destiny, it seems sometimes, is done with me.

The main thing that keeps me going is that I can't bear to bring myself to a stop.

Pessimistic, yes? Or perhaps faithless.

At least I have a job that requires me to be there at certain times every so often, and living arrangements that make it mandatory that I be employed. I suppose that could be considered a 'driving factor' in the shallowest of senses. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

deus751
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby deus751 » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:36 am

A very tough question. I belive that life is full of contrdicions in how one should feel about it. There are time when I don't care about my future and live life for the sake of entertaining my self and at times I live life for my future. For the most part though I think i am interested in what will happen next. Many new experinces and place to go. Some of the time it is because I am content with how i live. And some is because I would be ashamed to not do my best at living. Though my defenition of living is making my self and a few people close to me happy. No big ambitions (though I get bit by the bug somtimes), or wants. I like being in this world very much. My last reason is because my distrust of a god that may or may not exist. Personally I belive there is no god, and because of that my sense of responibilty to this world is far greater. At the same time I was raised christian and some of that still lingers as doubt in my mind. I don't trust many people and especialy a god that would cast me into an eterity of pain just because I used his gift of free will and chose not to belive in him. A person like that running my life? I think I'll keep on living and make my life the way I want it. I don't belive in fate but it's like knocking on wood. What if I am wrong?


User avatar
Zemyla
 
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:01 am

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Zemyla » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:36 pm

What keeps me going is the pursuit of knowledge. I wake up each day knowing that I will learn something new. Perhaps this new thing will combine with my old ideas in a form of synthesis. Perhaps it won't, immediately. But that is why I feel my life is worth living. <p>-----
Do not taunt Happy Fun Zemyla.

<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I think boobs are the lesser of two evils. - Inverse (Pervy)
Dammit, Dan, I'm not dating a damn NPC! - OOC Will (Will Baseton)
Of course! Anything worth doing is worth doing completely wrong! - Travis English
Ultimately, wizards and clerics don't say, "Gee, I want to become a lich because weapons hurt less and I don't have to worry about being backstabbed; that whole 'eternal life' thing is just a fringe benefit."-Darklion</span>

Adventurers! | RPG World World | The Phantom Lord's OT Board mkII | Indie Madnesse | Brotherhood of Elitist Bastards</p>

Archmage144
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:38 pm

Hmm. I managed to get up to date on this topic right before I took a psych exam, and spent a bit of time trying to decide what the proper response might be, but in the interest of not letting this thread devolve into some sort of religion-inspired flame war, because I already know the fact of the matter is that a lot of people either a) have biases and misconceptions that spoil the concept of religion for them and b) a lot of people like to shoot down religion because they think it makes them look more intelligent for being individual and rising above the obviously stupid masses who actually have faith in a higher power, none of which (obviously) arrived at that conclusion by their own decisions or with any level of information about the world and how it might work.

I take minor offense at my suggestion being referred to as "the stupidest thing you've ever heard," especially because I'm presenting everything from a logical, psychological standpoint. So, I just thought I'd illustrate briefly that man is a logical creature, and the human brain is wholly responsible for conceptions and perceptions of what is and what is not real. To some, belief in God is an obvious fallacy--of course there's no God, there just isn't! But why arrive at that conclusion? There has to be some logical process or pathway that resulted in that decision. I'm not suggesting that disbelief in God is in error--I am suggesting that belief or disbelief in God/faith/whatever is something you have total control over. You can actively choose to follow a set of beliefs. In fact, you do. Your beliefs are not genetic or inherent, but purely a product of environmental impact and internal processing. People convert from one religion to another all the time, deciding to become Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or to renounce their previous beliefs in favor of denial of all depictions of God, or to pick up a new religion just because it sounds neat and gives them a sense of belonging (cults, anyone?). This is a conscious, active decision. Of course you have control over whether or not you believe in God.

For those of you that say, "but how can I decide to believe in God arbitrarily and at whim without proof? I see no existence of God, but many people insist on His existence. Those people obviously cannot have proof, either. Why believe in God?" Let's consider the case of a schizophrenic. Schizophrenics believe a wide variety of things which cannot possibly be true--they might have delusions of grandeur, believing themselves to be (ironically enough) God, the devil, Jesus, Buddha, Abraham Lincoln, whatever. These people insist that they are who they think they are, and will not be convinced to the contrary, regardless of evidence. In fact, if you put three people who all believe themselves to be God in the same room, instead of being convinced of their own errors, they will denounce the others as falsehoods. To the schizophrenic, these impressions of reality are reality--their perceptions are skewed in a way that can never make sense to sane people. By my own argument, I suppose that all forms of faith could be considered some mass delusion, but the real point at hand is that something that is "obvious" to one person--the nonexistence (or existence, for that matter) of God may not be such a hard and fast truth to another.

Philosophically and logically, the comment has been made that there it is not only rational to believe in (for example) an afterlife, but it is the logically correct choice. Assuming an afterlife exists, whether or not you personally believe in it is likely wholly irrelevent. Therefore, what value is there in opting to not believe in one? When you die, if you're right, you don't even get the satisfaction of knowing it. On the other hand, what happens if you happen to be wrong? Now, I don't believe in hell, as I've stated many times in the past, but in any case, would you be disappointed to find out you were wrong? Would you be willing to admit that you were wrong? I don't want this to turn preachy, so I'm just going to comment on the fact that there's no harm in deciding that an afterlife or higher power exists--the worst that can possibly happen is you're wrong, and if so, you won't be alive to know about it.

Finally, in conclusion--it was not my intent to turn this into a full-blown post of this length--it just sort of happened. This is just how I get when things like this come up, I suppose. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone, nor am I trying to shove my beliefs down anyone else's throat. I'm just asking people to consider things from a wholly logical point of view if at all possible, and furthermore to consider the idea that thought and constructions are rational processes, which means that belief in something is an active, decided thing. No one is born into a specific religion or faith--one may be instilled by surroundings after birth, but they are a product of environment and conditioning, and knowing this, it is possible to decide to believe (or not believe) in God/the afterlife. Also, just to attempt to clear an apparent minor misconception, the existence of an ultimate divine power does not eliminate the possibility of free will--on the contrary, it can be considered to conclusively prove it, given that apparently, we have the option to choose to believe or not. If there were no such thing as freedom of choice, why would so many people disbelieve in the existence of God? Why would God create a race of people that refused His existence?

Just some things to think about, I suppose.

<p>
<div style="text-align:center">Image</div>

</p>

deus751
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby deus751 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:33 am

Ah hah! finally someone that partialy agrees with me! that was my point in the last aprt of my last post. One reason I carry on. Though I don't belive in a god or any all powerful being and I don't understand how anyone could I did at one point in my life. Nothing gets under my skin than people who can't see that there maybe another possibility. They are so sure that they are right because it feels right to them, so there is no way they can be wrong. Let me ask you guys something then... is the other person who is "wrong" only half beliving in what they say. By your own reasoning the person who is more sure in their beifs is right. Does that make any sense? Sounds like a bunch of emotional mumbo jumbo to me.

You can belive what you will but there is always a chance you could be wrong about this. Like Archmage144 said, logicly god doesn't exist to him because why would he creat people who don't belive in him if there is no free will. proving free will exists.

Well What I belive because from what I've seen in life is that we have free will and if god did create us to belive what we will and still casts us into the pits of damnation for all eternity even when you've lead a good life what does that make god? Eternal forgivness? Ha! God is an ass. If he truly does forgive and we lead a good life and get to go to a good after life then God is great in my book.

I still don't belive in him but I was raised to and I am finding when you were raised to belive in somthing for so long its hard to not think about it. Am i wrong? who knows I guess we'll find out when we die. Well actually I think that was a reason for not going on hahaha.


Choark
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Choark » Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:36 am

Before I debate what you put up I love your intro paragraph. I wonder what one of those two options you put me under? I also love the fact that it must be bias and *misconceptions* that spoil religion for these people. I believe you must believe me to be one of these or why else would you mention it at the beginning of your post. And if you don't think that then who else here do you think falls under those two options that would mean you can not. All in all, how high and mighty can you make yourself sound? *laughs* Not that saying that was the most stupid thing I ever heard was any different.

Myself I find your logical standpoint flawed. The people who you mention that change religion normally stop following one religion because they never truly believed in the religion they were following to begin with. Maybe they believed in God but thought the way the religion they were part of depicted it wrong, or maybe, like I said, some outside force convinced them otherwise. How many people move to Christian to Jewish because they convinced themselves otherwise? Oh there has been people who changed but I bet they all had a debatewith other people about it. The people who follow cults only do it to be accepted, many don't actually believe in what they are being taught but follow it because, for once, they do belong somewhere. Also these people are normally following a certain person rather then a God. This person represents something to them, gave them meaning and they don't let go of it. People who follow cults are normally lost people, people who havent made up there mind on what they believe in, or for whatever reason, what they did believe is has been shaken up. They didn't just decide to become part of the cult to make them feel better from the get go, there needed to be something driving them there out of there own control.

In other words: no one suddenly decides to stop believing in something without some outside influence.

Thankfully you have provided the perfect example of why people can't stop believing in something was its set in there. You take those men who believe themselves to be God. You said yourself they can not be convinced otherwise, no matter what evidence is put forward. Exactly! They can't change there mind. They have lived for how many years and there brains have come to the conclusion that They Are God, Jesus, whatever. Now, even with only faith to guide them, thats all they can believe because they believe it fully. Well I've been alive for twenty three years. I've studied most of the major religions, study the history of the bible and even the history of magic, in my spare time. I've come to my conclusions. I have made the logical pathways in my brain. It is set. Maybe you think I don't believe just to make myself seem more intelligent but since when have I ever been concerned with that? I've always painted myself as an idiot because, all in all, I am.

After I stopped believeing in God I did try and find him for the reasons you said. Because it would be easier to live a life thinking there was an afterlife, or even a reward, or even Hell would be an upside to what I believe. Even reincaration, finding budda, the happy hunting ground, waking up from this dream, all of it would have been better. I am, however, true to myself, unlike a fair few other people out there. If I don't believe it, and I have found nothing in any of the relgions to convince me otherwise, then I'm not going to lie to myself over it. Thats the logical choice, to believe in what you actually believe rather then follow something if its just a handy pillow to hug. Maybe you think its logical to lie to yourself to make yourself feel better, though to me makes me wonder if you believe in God at all and just wish he was there.
Its like someone I read once: A Monk didn't believe in Budda nor could he follow the teachings with all his heart, however till the end of his days he followed them all in case they were right. Durring his manhood before an old Monk died he asked to see this Monk and told him "You waste your life." and died. The Monk took no heed of these words and continued to following the teachings. "It would be no waste if the teachings prooved true!" he told himself. At the end of his life, just as he died, he heard those words again and this time the meaning behind them. His life was wasted because the teaching had done nothing for him, his could never attain enlightenment without the truth in his heart. What was the point in the teachings if he didn't feel the truth behind them? He had not been true to himself and so died, achieving nothing. Had he followed what he believed, lived his life, he would of found the truth by himself in time, and lived a life of happiness and died with meaning.

Honestly - after re-reading your "Logical" reason for believing in the afterlife, I can see theres just not any point in having this conversation. Much like you said, I'm saying now. Your too biased in your own logic and reason to even see the other standpoint. Heck the way your wording it all seems to me to have huge flaws in it. I only ask you this: Do you truly believe Belief to be Logically and to always follow a logical point of view? Because most people think belief is outside logic. Even if they can't prove something is there, debate on its (or lack of) exsistence, they just believe it.

I honestly don't trust anyone who can apprently change there belief in one day, through pure decision, on there own, just like that.

Why would so many people disbelieve in the existence of God? Why would God create a race of people that refused His existence? Because he didn't and is not there? Taken that way free will can prove that his divine will is not there. Its also been a stange thing but god did not condomn the giving of knowledge, it was the Devil that gave us that. god wanted us to live without it. Yet it is through knowledge we gain free will.

And in a conclusion:

I didn't say anything new, and neither did you. I find what you said.. wrong... and considering this new post, even when you try to "logically" explain it, it doesn't sound logical or right.

So, its that old case of - One man looks at a cloud and see's a sheep, the other a goat, and neither of them can agree. You say the same things which apprently prove ya point but I don't see it there in any way. See the same argument, see different conclusions. We just don't agree. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 5:42

Choark
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Choark » Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:24 am

Yes. F-deth. I have. Three times.

Quote:
Therefore, what value is there in opting to not believe in one? When you die, if you're right, you don't even get the satisfaction of knowing it.


Theres that word: Value again. Do you put value to everything or something? Because it doesn't give me much in return I can't believe in it? What value is there lying to yourself?

I don't believe in the afterlife. I have heard discussions on it, and heard why people think its there, I can't, as I said, just wave a magic wand and change my belief because it be easier to believe its there. I *want* it to be there but that doesn't change anything, or take the fear away, as thats what started this entire thing anyway.

Can you please just take my word on it when I say "I don't believe in it and I have thought about it, a lot." When I say, a lot, I mean I was down the libary all through senior school, ages 12-18, reading up on it (and many versions of it) and thinking on it. I bet there has not been many people who wanted to believe in God as much as I did. But wanting is not enough.

I looked for God and I found nothing. Alright?

This is so not what this thread was made for.

edit:

Before I forget: I find nothing logical in saying "Believe in Something because its Easier to." Thats not belief, and its not logical. Its the easy quick path. Just because there maybe an afterlife, what logical reason is there lying about believeing in it if you don't? Who are you making it easier for? Not yourself, because you don't really believe in it, and... thats the only person it would actually matter for in this case.

AM said he doesn't believe in Hell, yet Hell might exsist! Why doesn't he suddenly believe in Hell because it might be there? Its a stupid argument that has no logic behind it when you consider the fact we're talking about belief. Belief isn't that simple.

Edit Edit:

As a note you may understand, rather then converting someone to Christian:

If you honestly think AM is making logical sence with what he's saying and you're Christian...

... Become a Buddist. Right now. I'm telling you that your life will be easier and more complete if you followed the buddist teachings. There is a lot of value behind what they teach and all the people who do follow it claim to have an inner peace not found in any other religion, even ex-christians can back this up. So do it. Just follow it, and believe it. Fully. If its honestly that simple.

No?

Not that easy to suddenly change is it? <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 6:54

FlamingDeth
Moderator
 
Posts: 2128
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:54 am

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby FlamingDeth » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:14 am

Of course no one is going to convert to another religion with no outside influence. It would be absurd to think they would. It's absurd, in fact, to think that ANY decision is made without any outside influence. Choosing what college to go to? All those flyers you get in the mail when graduating highschool, your academic advisors, what your parents say, those all contribute to your decision. Choosing what to have for lunch? The stuff available in your house, the fast food joints and restaraunts in your vicinity, how much time you have available, those are pretty important to that decision. Ducky wasn't saying that people can choose, right out of the blue, to suddenly believe a different religion. He was just saying that they can actively choose.

"I've studied most of the major religions, study the history of the bible and even the history of magic, in my spare time. I've come to my conclusions. I have made the logical pathways in my brain." That there is an example completely against what you're trying to say. That's a decision, and it's one that it seems has drastically changed your beliefs. Out of curiosity, though, has your research on the Bible included actually reading the Bible?

"I only ask you this: Do you truly believe Belief to be Logically and to always follow a logical point of view? Because most people think belief is outside logic." Why yes, yes I do. I don't see any reason why belief shouldn't follow logic. If a belief doesn't stand up to logic, then it doesn't hold much water. Also, just because "most people think" something doesn't even imply that it's true.


Anyways. Archmage's post is completely logical, near as I can tell, and I've yet to see anything that actually points out a logical error. I've also tried to leave out any actual inclusion of my own beliefs in this, as they aren't relevant to the current topic, and it would take too long to describe them here anyways. <p>
<hr width="70%"><center>This month's "Transformer of the Month" is Grimlock in a Santa hat! He's quite jolly.</center></p>

User avatar
PriamNevhausten
Holy Order of the Crimson Ballpoint
 
Posts: 2854
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2002 4:10 pm

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:56 am

--Do you put value to everything or something?--

Yes. Everything has value. Everything has merit. Everything has significance of some sort or another. The only thing that can have no value is that which has no existence, though even a potent lack of existence has value.

"People believe what they want to believe, or what they fear is true."

That's all I have to say about this gob of crap. We're not fucking missionaries here. Religion is not logical. Faith is not logical. Discussion, being rational discourse, is completely at odds with Faith and Religion. Philosophers have, over the ages, toiled and thought and written on the subject countless times, but the same shit happens: People believe what they want to believe, or what they fear is true. Same Shit, Different Century. All the rational discourse in the world will not get people to change their minds. US Election reference goes here. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

Choark
 

The pointless post

Unread postby Choark » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:31 am

First, thanks for the concern, but after the first rant I've been pretty much non stressed, so no big there. I've been making an effort to actualy try and discuss/rant/say-what-I-feel-on everything because I did make the thread. It seem rather rude to make a discussion thread and not say anything.

Second: I don't think AM is trying to convert me.

--give me a sec--

Right second gone.

Okay. I'm not good with words so I'll stop trying to be. So this is it: Final thing said on this topic from me.

----

My guess this must work differently for everyone however: There came a point in my life when I had chosen what I believed it, I had believed in it long enough that it is part of me. I can no more change that belief in me then I can change what I did yesterday. Its there. There are people who can't not believe in God, not matter what happens to them, there families, or what happens around them. Its there, inside them and has been apart of them for so long they just can't not believe in Him.

So it is said "People believe what they want to believe, or fear is true." That doesn't mean you can change what you fear or what you believe just as easily as saying that sentence. Once a strong belief is there it is not easily moved. That belief becomes a part of you. Sometimes it because you were raised with the teachings that they have become how you view the world, sometimes its because you've been doing it for so long you can't think not to do it. Whatever. Christains who "lose faith" but then return. Did they lose complete faith or were they just confused at something? People who joined and went to chruch for years then suddenly stopped. Did they believe it when they were there or just wanted to believe it?

I'm a firm believer in that Wanting to believe something is not the same as actually believing it.

I don't believe Faith and Relgion is based around logic all the way. There is thought into it, but a whole lotta belief as well.

---

And thats that - I can't probably think of any new way to say the same thing again anyway.

As for other peoples reasons for living on:

Cool! Long as you live on! <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 8:54

Celeste of Elvenhame
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Celeste of Elvenhame » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:01 am

I think it's silly myself to go around trying to convert people. I believe what I believe and other people believe what they believe. It gets tiresome when people either try to convert me or rabidly attack my religious beliefs as wrong. I am willing to discuss religion intelligently because I am interested in the religion of others and what other people believe. However the minute someone gets a snotty attititude with me, I refuse to further discuss the subject.

Oddly for once I have to agree with Priam. Choark, I suggest to you to reduce stress don't bother to explain yourself when it becomes clear someone is either refusing to hear what you are saying or trying to convert you to their beliefs. I've found in my life it helps a lot. I generally say something to the effect of "I'm sorry, but I don't with to further discuss this with you as it has become nonproductive. We disagree,let's leave it at that." <p>---------------Celeste of Elvenhame ---------------

Aaron Lewis of Guildportal: On the up side though, most of the remaining bugs are genuinely evil, sentient beings that actively dodge attempts to thwart them.</p>

Archmage144
 

Re: The pointless post

Unread postby Archmage144 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:29 am

You know, it usually takes more than a five-sentence paragraph blurb to convince someone to change the foundation of their belief system. However, depending on other outside circumstances, suggesting that someone go out and study Buddhism might actually get them to investigate the matter further, do research, read Buddhist literature, and spend time contemplating whether or not Buddhism might actually be a belief system that fits them better!

Just keep in mind that this is no less an active choice, and furthermore, that just because you tell someone to do something and they don't do it doesn't mean that they didn't have the option to do so. Your apparent intent at proving that religion/faith is not a conscious decision is analogous to my saying that you have no free will because I ask you to jump off a bridge and you refuse because obviously "you didn't choose not to jump off the bridge--you just didn't, because that's the way you are."

I'm not saying anyone has to become Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/Muslim/Wiccan/Scientologist/whatever, I'm just trying to make the point that belief or disbelief is a conscious decision. I think it's the right decision, and there's a logical argument that can support it as far as I'm concerned (which I have already given), but my primary interest here is getting recognition for the idea that your faith/lack thereof is not determined by an undeniable barcode stamped on your synapses that says "be faithful!" or "God is not real! You are convinced!"

Edit: And, as an afterthought, while faith, the belief in something without proof, may be illogical, the decision to have faith is one that people arrive via logical constructs, no matter how skewed. <p>
<div style="text-align:center">Image</div>

</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=archmage144>Archmage144</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 10:31

User avatar
Kai
Fighting the Iron Law of Oligarchy Since 2006
 
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:32 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Kai » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:26 am

I really wanted to stay out of this, but I guess now I can't. Someone has roused the argument-starved debater from her apathy.
Quote:
The people who follow cults only do it to be accepted, many don't actually believe in what they are being taught but follow it because, for once, they do belong somewhere. Also these people are normally following a certain person rather then a God. This person represents something to them, gave them meaning and they don't let go of it. People who follow cults are normally lost people, people who havent made up there mind on what they believe in, or for whatever reason, what they did believe is has been shaken up. They didn't just decide to become part of the cult to make them feel better from the get go, there needed to be something driving them there out of there own control.

I need someplace to start here. Define cult, and then I'll find some way of refuting an overly general and largely unjustified statement without getting too preachy.
Quote:
Thankfully you have provided the perfect example of why people can't stop believing in something was its set in there. You take those men who believe themselves to be God. You said yourself they can not be convinced otherwise, no matter what evidence is put forward. Exactly! They can't change there mind. They have lived for how many years and there brains have come to the conclusion that They Are God, Jesus, whatever. Now, even with only faith to guide them, thats all they can believe because they believe it fully.

Um... these men are insane. Part of their insanity, or maladaptive behavior to be politically correct, is that they cannot change their position. If this is maladaptive, this means that people who are not schizophrenic can indeed change their positions on things.
Quote:
Your too biased in your own logic and reason to even see the other standpoint. Heck the way your wording it all seems to me to have huge flaws in it.

Please provide an example after throwing a statement out that... without an example, on its own really doesn't seem to have a justification. It will help me follow your arguments, and help everyone understand/find you credible, if only you would justify your statements.
Quote:
Its also been a stange thing but god did not condomn the giving of knowledge, it was the Devil that gave us that. god wanted us to live without it. Yet it is through knowledge we gain free will.

But God didn't stop us. He warned us, and then let us do as we pleased, showing that from the beginning, God let us do things he disapproved of all in the name of free will. I'm no Biblical expert, nor even Christian, but from my understading of Genesis, it seems as though that's the way it took place. If someone who knows the Bible better can say otherwise, I will concede this particular refutation.
*****
In the spirit of having some sort of conclusion, I really did fully intend to stay out of this... but it got to the point where I was irked enough by this that I had to be obnoxious and say something mildly structured so that people can understand my view. It helps, I think. Choark, this also may help you point to the particular passage I've got a problem with so you'll know precisely where I disagree with you. If I'm going to disagree, it's only fair you know why.

Archmage made many of the points I'd make in his post, and he knows I agree with him. My religious views don't make enough logical sense for me to outline here, and they are quite frankly irrelevant to the discussion. Yes, they've changed over my life, and I've also changed my mind about other things I once believed to be true, based on new information and analysis. It happens. Maybe Choark has even done it once or twice.

I hope most of my arguments were specific enough. If not, my bad. <p>-------------------------
Wise man say, "forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza."

"Fat is a waste of meatspace."</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A] at: 12/8/04 13:08

Choark
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Choark » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:45 am

You do all relise I was just trying to say:

I don't believe in the afterlife so I love my life cause its all I got and i'm happy with it.

Then you said: Well believe in the afterlife because it'll make your life easier.

Then I said: I can't just believe, just like that. I already made my choice.

It takes more the five sentences of inane logical thought to convert me as well.

Then once you made your choice and its stayed with you - you don't just let it go and its normally hard to faulter/change.

.. Then you went off on .. obviously something else... And now come to the bloody same conclusion I had ages ago!?

When I said belief is belief what I meant was when you have Chosen what you believe in you chose it for a reason and you follow it.

... okay.. I said I'll stop and I will. This is now giving me a bloody headache and it honestly seems no ones disagreeing with me anyway - just arguing @_@ <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 11:55

Choark
 

An non discussion thing:

Unread postby Choark » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:13 pm

I do this for one reason only:

Quoting is fun!

Quote:
Define cult


No. It was a sweeping remark.

Quote:
these men are insane


..So why use them for a logical argument?

Quote:
Please provide an example after throwing a statement out that... without an example, on its own it really doesn't seem to have a justification. It will help me follow your arguments, and help everyone understand/find you credible, if only you would justify your statements.


One, I tried to. Two. No. Three. I've only ever been talking from my point of view, so if people can see the logic that I should just believe in the Afterlife to make myself feel better JUST LIKE THAT (which later AM himself just said people won't!) - then yay for them! Honestly I have a feeling there was somesort of problem with the commication going on durring all of this anyway.

Quote:
But God didn't stop us


Banished us though.

Anywho on this free will: I don't care. The puppet thing was a remark on how some people DO believe that we are puppets of Gods Devine Will and my belief means thats not true! I didn't even want to bloody put a value to my belief anyway but it seems I had to put SOMETHING to it so I chose that.

Quote:
The value is Humans do good and do things themselves. We aren't puppets of anyones will.


See? It was just a BLOODY EXAMPLE!! I never said every bloody person who follows whatever bloody religion had no bloody free will or there being a God means there is no free will! IT! WAS! JUST! AN! EXAMPLE!!

I don't believe in God so the whole thing means little to me. Yes there can be a God and have free will - Some people don't - some people say we are all acting out of Gods Will. In fact the strange loop has occured where people believe in free will and Gods Will. Where everyone is free to do what they choice but in the end we do Gods Will and abide by his plan... We apprently follow the plan with our own free will though... So you can either take that as God is one cunning bastard ... Free will is an illusion... or whatever. I DON'T CARE!

This all started cause I said this probably:

Quote:
You can't choose to believe in something


Cause what I meant to say is you can't just Suddenly choose to believe in something without a reason when you have already chosen what you believe in because of thought, belief, environment, whatever.

I'll say it again, in quotes

Quote:
You can't just Suddenly choose to believe in something without a reason when you have already chosen what you believe in


There!

It was my fault this started because I didn't say it right!

You can't choose to believe in something on the drop of a hat.

I *think* that'll clear everything up. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

Celeste of Elvenhame
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Celeste of Elvenhame » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:35 pm

Actually AM I disagree. I will agree that there has to be a reason, just that it does not have to be logical. Religion and faith are often driven on feeling and not logic. Take for example the concept of immaculate conception. Logically Jesus has to have a Father, correct? No given that he has to have a father, someone has got to donate the sperm for it to happen...Biologically a women cannot become pregnant without a male. It just doesn't work. Yet somehow most of the christians take it on faith that Mary Magdeline (sp?) was a virgin who bore Jesus, son of God. No sez...period....but had a child.


My rather spurious reasons for belief come down to two critical things:

Looking at all that surrounds us, how can one believe there is not a plan, a supreme being who guides it, that all this is the result of some petty cosmic fluke or some radiation causing a mutation that caused a single cell lifeform to arise from protoplasm which followed a series of accidents that EVENTUALLY just happened to lead to intelligent life?

Secondly (and the main reason)

I know God exists. Without a doubt. I can feel his presence.

Yould offer me absolutely perfect logical proof those two statements are incorrect and I would look at you like you were nuts, shake my head sadly, sigh and walk away.

I wasn't saying specifically that you were trying to convert Choark, only pointing out to him that he'd have a lot less headache if after a certain point if he felt the discussion was going nowhere it's best to part ways with the arguement/discussion when it became clear his point was understood and the discussion continued, it is just an excercise in frustration. I do it all the time, in fact I am rarely willing to discuss religion because it so often becomes a frivolous circular discussion, it's rarely worth the stress it can cause.

*pauses a moment for thought*
I will agree with Cho on the statement of just believe in blah-blah-blah, it will make you feel better.

Parallel that might make it clearer (or confuse more people):

You tell a friend to cheer up when they are depressed. You get upset with them because your attempts to make them feel better fail, and they are angry with you because you attempted to make them feel better.

Why?

Because spurious arguements, coupled with standarded cliche is almost guaranteed to set a person off, not only are one's feelings being belittled as inconsequential because some silly saying such as 'everything will be okay', people actually expect that telling you 'feel better' will suddenly make you feel better and take all one's worries away.

Now if you converted that into religion instead feeling (although I feel very much they dwell in the same realm) and you might be able to understand a little more clearly.

Or conversely since I am restless and awake when I normally would be asleep, perhaps I just made it all more confusing and missed a few more points along the way! Try and cut me a little slack for trying to comment intelligently while not neccessarily being all the way awake. <p>---------------Celeste of Elvenhame ---------------

Aaron Lewis of Guildportal: On the up side though, most of the remaining bugs are genuinely evil, sentient beings that actively dodge attempts to thwart them.</p>

User avatar
pd Rydia
Moderator
 
Posts: 5269
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:12 pm
Location: Temple of Fiends

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby pd Rydia » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:18 pm

Thanks to posts by certain individuals, this thread gets the official duck of disapproval.

Image

And now, to quote someone we all know and love [(1) in bed, (2) on fire, (3) over the bridge]:<h1>"Lighten The Fuck Up."</h1> <p>
<center><small>"We are just poor, wandering corn farmers..."
Image
</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pdrydia>pd]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 15:18

Archmage144
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:19 pm

Quote:
Thanks to posts by certain individuals, this thread gets the official duck of disapproval.


Good to know we aren't allowed to, you know, discuss things in the discussion forum.

Edit: Or, apparently, find out exactly what was done that was so offensive without creating further problems. o_o;;;;; <p>
<div style="text-align:center">Image</div>

</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=archmage144>Archmage144</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 15:24

Choark
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Choark » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:23 pm

Actually I wholly considered myself the one who caused this Duck to Quake dissaprovenly at this thread... as.. like... I'm the only one who ever seemed to get stupid in it.

For which all I can do is shed tears of regret.

S'far as I can tell everyone else has been fine and dandy. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 12/8/04 15:23

Archmage144
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:45 pm

Quote:
Actually AM I disagree. I will agree that there has to be a reason, just that it does not have to be logical. Religion and faith are often driven on feeling and not logic.


The things believed in do not by any means have to be logical. The choice to believe in them is reached by a logical conclusion, i.e., "I will choose to believe in Jesus, because otherwise, I will burn in hell," or "I think God exists, because the order of the universe is too well-defined and set to have occurred by chance," or "I don't think there is a God, because no truly kind creator would let there be pain and violence in the world," or "I hate religious zealots, and therefore, religion is bad."

Every conception you hold, every notion within your mind, is built on some logical foundation. You yourself, Celeste, state that you believe in God and then provide reasons for why.

I think that I may have to redefine "logic" so that the context in which I am using the word will make sense for this argument. A lot of people define a logical statement as one that is "formally true and valid." In other words, a logical statement is one that can be made and then proven conclusively. This is a valid definition of logic. However, the more important and relevent definition at hand is "a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty."

Consider this: a lot of people on this forum play video games or roleplay, either tabletop or on this forum. Many people consider roleplaying or spending hours on a video game an "illogical" behavior, as it runs contrary to their principles of what is normal, valid, and correct. Their justification for this is that other things are more fun, that roleplaying is stupid or boring, whatever. They have reached this conclusion via a logical pathway or set thereof:

IF playing D&D on Friday nights is less fun than other activities, THEN I will not do it.
IF I have decided that roleplaying games are stupid, THEN I, being human, want to seek out companions who share my opinions in some fashion (perhaps not explicitly).
IF people find out that I play D&D, THEN they will make fun of me, so I will not do it.

"Logical" does not mean "absolutely true." It means "relating to an interrelation or sequence of facts or events seen as inevitable or predictable." The logic involved in the decision to have faith is not, "I believe Jesus erupted as a ray of light from Mary's womb, and therefore, he did." The logic involved is "I believe in God, because [insert reason x]." You described why you have faith, and the things that have convinced you of your beliefs--while they may not be verifiable to others, and cannot be proven, they have lead you to a conclusion that is a form of logical thinking.

I hope that clears things up a little. I do realize that a lot of faith is determined by "feeling," but feeling is just another form of logic. Just keep in mind that logic used to convince one's self of something is not necessarily the same as logic used to convince someone else of something. Example: A lot of women, for no apparent reason to most outside observers, consider themselves unattractive. Often, no amount of arguing will change their mind. Within the constructs of their own psychology, they have established the idea that they are unattractive [because reason x]. Case A is still leading to resolution B, thereby defining the situation as a logical process--the logic involved is just subjective. <p>
<div style="text-align:center">Image</div>

</p>

Archmage144
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:31 pm

I'm not sure how to delicately agree with you on that. o_o;;

I wouldn't say you're being stupid. That's entirely too harsh, really. I know you too well for that, and furthermore, I'm pretty familiar with the course debate with you tends to take--this is more or less usually how things go. It's just your style to be a little exuberant and occasionally a little disjointed. The point still gets across, but I do have to question your rationale sometimes. Then again, I make my own brand of mistakes, so, well, nobody's faultless, whatever the value of that is.

Also, at the unfortunate risk of pissing Dia off further--sometimes, people aren't willing to "lighten up" just because you tell them to stop taking themselves so seriously. In fact, it just inflames things, because you're telling them that the argument isn't worth the effort that they obviously think it is. I know I get kinda angry when I'm passionately trying to prove some point or telling someone about something and I get a "dude, shut the fuck up, it's not important, no one cares, why are you taking this so seriously?" It wouldn't surprise me too terribly if others potentially took it the same way. Coming in and breaking up a debate makes me feel like a scolded child, even if I'm not certain the scolding is directed at me. The problem is that I'm not a child, and if I want to fight with the other adults, knives drawn and teeth gnashing if need be, I will. >.>;; <p>
<div style="text-align:center">Image</div>

</p>

ChancellorSmartz
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby ChancellorSmartz » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:56 pm

First of all, telling people to "Lighten the fuck up" is insensitive, even if there were any sort of joking behind it. It's just simply rude, if I were to curtly put it.

And to answer the question at hand:

What keeps me going? Honestly, the idea from when I wake up in the morning is hoping my day goes well enough so that I sleep well at night. That is basically the abriged version.

To go in it deeper, I guess being able to talk to people, especially my friends, playing video games whenever I get the chance, watching TV, eating good food, doing fine in my classes, and hoping I will become successful is what keeps me going. Sure, I have those days where I loathe going to class, or certain people I wish to avoid, and predicaments I do not wish to be a part of...but as cliche as it is, it is life. Life is something everyone wants to be predictable and controlled at one's whim, but people cannot, and that is what frustrates them. And yes, death is a scary thing for a lot of people. But think of it this way: would it be better to live through dozens of years of despair and frustration, or is it better to die without experiencing all of life's pleasures? Whatever religion you may or may not believe, death is inevitable, but should be accepted.

My personal philosophy is just to try to live a modest, "full" life, and when I die I hope I can look back and realize all the happy things. I hope I can do good things in my community, and with my desire for justice and liking of forensic science, I wish I could help people fulfilling peace of mind, which also helps me feel good about myself. It might be considered selfish that I get my happiness by simply helping others, but that is how I feel. What I suggest is find something that makes you happy, stick with it, and intergrate it with your lifestyle until your time comes.

Choark, or anyone else who is concerned, the question isn't "what keeps you going", because that can change between tomorrow and every other day for the years to come. If you think one day is almost unbearable to go through, think about how it will be for the next 20 years. Your ideas, your values, your physical and mental being will change, possibly without you knowing. With that being the case, the question should be "How can I achieve personal happiness?" For if you are happy, then you can always be sure live another day. <p>"Dude...you can't put salt on asians. We already taste good." -Me</p>

ChancellorSmartz
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby ChancellorSmartz » Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:45 pm

Part II: To answer and comment on other things brought up in this topic.

Religion: O, 'tis the trickiest and most controversal of subjects. However, when dealing with faith, beliefs, life and death, someone is bound to cross into this territory. Although I am a Caltholic myself, I do not whole-heartedly believe in a lot of things people perceive it to be. For one thing, I do not like evangelism, or zealous preaching through gospels, in hopes to "forcibly" convert people, and in the example of Choark, not everyone is that easily convinced, and some do not want to be. Secondly, I don't like the the idea of simply believing in a religion inorder to get into heaven, or simply orthodoxy. Sure, you can be the biggest jerk of all time, but as long as you believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, all the stuff in the Nicene creed, and pay for your sins in purgatory, you can go to heaven! Eh, no, I don't think so. I'd rather earn my way to heaven through good deeds, like the Islam religion provides, as well as their way of reason and ethics. However, just because I like Islam doesn't mean I'm gonna convert right away, but with some research, it might not be so bad.

Secondly, Mary Magdalene was the "companion" Jesus, not his mother. She was the one who was considered to be a whore, thanks to the Church.

Thirdly, religion as a whole...the ability to believe in something so deeply is quite an interesting human trait. If one were to look at religion objectively, it would be obvious that they are all lies. But, that is in fact what faith is all about; to believe a lie to an extent to which that person willingly thinks it is true. The Bible is a book of fictitious stories, Greek mythologies were simple tales to explain the whys of the world, and Buddhism is a philosophy of achieving "enlightenment". Hell, history as we know it is merely a one-sided account ofwhat happenend in the world, all of which could be fabrication. But there are still Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddists, and pagans (pagan is a word I use for people who are polytheists), who all willingly believe that there is some higher power out there, which logic and reason cannot simply explain. That is why faith is such a powerful thing; only faith can provide comfort within one's personal spirit. <p>"Dude...you can't put salt on asians. We already taste good." -Me</p>

User avatar
Animala
HATED BY SKELETONS
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:52 pm

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Animala » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:34 pm

If you look at it objectively, the phrase "if you look at it objectively" obviously means "if you look at it with my bias instead of yours."

And now, back on the original topic of this post.

What keeps me going?

Love and fluffiness.

I'm not kidding.

The fact of the matter is that I love this world, and I'm glad I have the opportunity to be a part of it. That works for me.

Fluffiness makes a lot less snersne. I just like it. It makes me happy. There ya go.

I have some more poetic, cool-sounding reasons, but they're either extensions of the two reasons above, or they're pure BS.

And now, the topic of previous discussion...

I'm going to talk about the truth.

For example, how is it objectively obvious that any given religious belief is false? There is really only one standard of truth which I consider to be objectively obvious:

If a system of statements implies a logical contradiction, at least one of the statements in the system is false.

Of course, this assumes that the universe is logically consistent. If it isn't, anything goes.

You'll have a hard time finding a direct logical contradiction in anything that involves God, since a great deal of confusion can easily be attributed to human error. So I honestly don't think any religious system is "obviously" a lie. Now, it might be the case that a religious system obviously conflicts with a scientific belief (i.e. the model of the Earth as a flat disc supported by four elephants supported by a turtle). In this case it may be "obvious" that the religious belief is false, but only if you presuppose the scientific belief is correct! In fact, it's only "obvious" that at least one statement in the system created by the scientific concensus + the turtle model is incorrect.

That said...

I have to fairly vehmently disagree with Brian's argument regarding personal comfort. If you value the truth highly, it is extremely dangerous to admit your personal comfort as a major criterion for evaluating alternative viewpoints.

Personally, I put great value on knowing and professing the truth. While ultimately belief does come down to personal choice, I do not accept that "it will make you more comfortable" is a valid reason to change my belief. Greater personal comfort does not imply truth, unless I assume that reality has an obligation to be nice to me.

-Koss <p>

Image
Behold! Sig figs!</p>

Seethe347
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Seethe347 » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:06 am

I've only read over the main ideas in this thread, but I have to agree with Cho that belief in a religion is not based on logic and that a person can't force himself to be a believer. Even though our views regarding the existence of God differ, I know what he means when he says that he can't see how a god or gods could possibly exist because, similarly, I can't see how God could possibly not exist. No amount of logical argument can change my view of this because, simply put, there just isn't enough evidence to prove either side.

As the Christian religion itself puts it, faith is a gift from God. Not even the most heroic efforts of a man can produce it. He can only receive it from God by God's will.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the matter. I doubt that they will prove anything to anyone because, honestly, I wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone.

[edit 4]

Heck, I'll just edit this part out and try to answer the original question tomorrow.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seethe347>Seethe347</A] at: 12/9/04 4:46

Choark
 

Re: A discussion topic. Or. A post ya thoughts topic.

Unread postby Choark » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:27 am

On the subject of Changing your Beliefs purely by thought:

I've finally, yes finally, managed to think of something that may explain my point of view on this, and its in a form of a question no less. Now lets just try to word it properly.

When you fall in love, do you do it purely by (logical) thought?

If you answered:

Yes: That you fall in love with someone because you think that they act a certain way that pleases you, share the same hobbies and they look pleasing enough to the eye, that you think about it and decide your in love... Then we won't ever agree on the subject. We view Humans as entirely different things and don't agree on how they work, through thoughts and feelings.

No: Then maybe you can understand me when I say I view Belief as complex as Love, that there is always something more then thought going on, something, if you will, in the 'soul' of the person. Liking a movie, or falling in love, or believing in something requires something more of a person then just thinking about it. Thought is a part of it, everyone thinks about stuff, but it does require more.

There. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Image </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

Next

Return to Discussion Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron

Yalogank