Philisophical Question

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Elementalist Daien
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Elementalist Daien » Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:24 pm

... Your point is both irrelevant and wrong.



Sorry, Wolfbelly, but you seem to miss a point. You are speaking of action and re-action, which has no bearing on the topic of destiny. After all, all you spoke about in your post is just your decision.


Who knows, maybe in your position, someone else would NOT have kept your job. Couldn't he? Yes, he could. Why? Because he wanted to. Hence free will.

If the person in the drink thing couldn't care less about if someone grumbles if he takes the last soda, and thus takes it anyway, wouldn't that fuck up the rest anyway? So, therefore, that's what free will is. Also, one may not give a damn about what you said. Like people who drink too much soda. Or who live alone.

What may seem "good" to one mind is not necessarily the same for another. Therefore, your topic has nothing to do with destiny.


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Zemyla
 
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Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Zemyla » Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:31 pm

Actually, this argument may very well be pointless. There is no way to prove that destiny does or does not exist.

And even if you knew destiny existed, your life wouldn't change, as you would continue to do the things you were destined to do. And if you knew that destiny didn't exist, then you would continue to do the things you normally do of your own free will. <p>-----
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5orbus
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby 5orbus » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:40 pm

Zem has a point, so shall we just agree to disagree Daien?


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Animala
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Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Animala » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:56 pm

Good point, Zem.

Such a discussion is, of course, pointless.

No good ever comes from challenging one's own view points by discussing them with people who disagree, or vice versa. Certainly, we should never speak of our opinions or attempt to persuade anyone of them unless we have objective proof of their veracity.

It's much better to discuss, say, the weather.

So...the weather we're having certainly is caused by a complex interaction of various factors, isn't it?

-White Knight <p>

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Animala
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Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Animala » Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:09 pm

Continuing on topic...

I contend that if you can believe in free will, either you should or you must. (Technically, that's an XOR, but who cares?)

There is a subjective benefit analysis which involves whether the comfort one gets from being able to choose to do things outweighs the consequences of being responsible for one's actions, but let's keep it simple.

Let us assume for a moment that there is supreme value in being right. That truth is not only worth something but is the most important criteria for evaluating beliefs.

Okay, now suppose that human beings do have free will. In this case, by the previous criteria, it is the best decision to believe in free will, because then one believes the truth.

Now, suppose that human beings do not have free will.
In this case, the best option is not to believe in free will. However, one has no choice in the matter. Thus, if one can believe in free will, one must.

Assuming truth is the most important factor for belief, it therefore follows that, if it is possible, either one should believe in free will, since he will then be correct, or must believe in free will because he is incorrect.

Since I find myself able to believe in free will, it's the only sensible thing for me to do.

-White Knight <p>

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Sivak
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Sivak » Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:46 pm

If you do what makes you happy, why care about free will? If you do what you want, without the fear or thought that you have no chioce, fate and destiny become irrelevant. If you belive in free will, that is the truth for you. If not, then whatever. <p>Who me? I'm working with you.
Sivak, Chaos Sorceror</p>

Wolfbelly
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Wolfbelly » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:23 am

Quote:
Sorry, Wolfbelly, but you seem to miss a point. You are speaking of action and re-action, which has no bearing on the topic of destiny. After all, all you spoke about in your post is just your decision.
Okay, I'm not talking about Destiny in this case, I'm talking about free will or the lack thereof. And of course I'm speaking of action and reaction. That's how we work. That's how we learn. That's how we decide on what we want to do. And yeah, technically it is my decision, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. it appears I failed, so I'll try again.

What makes a decision an example of free will? As I've said before, every decision we make is merely the best possible option (subjectively) for us to take, the path which provided the least difficulty for us to follow. Every decision you make is based on prior experiences, past information, current beliefs, biological determinants, weather conditions, etc. Say you decided 'freelly' to become a police officer. Why did you decide on that? Well, there's a number of possible explanations, so I'll outline only one combination. You grew up in a family that respected order. You had a strict, disciplinarian father. Your family lived in a rough neighborhood. You were given the overall impression that people who break laws are scum that should be removed from the streets. You did well in Phys Ed. You were an active member of the community. When you graduated High school, your decision to become a cop was based on prior experiences, which were also based on prior experiences, and so on, and so on. So was it really free will then? In the above example, your upbringing strongly enforced adhering to strict order, working within a group, despising criminal elements, being physically fit for the position, etc. These forces, outside of your control, push you into following a certain, specific life path. Your overall attitude may be "Yes, I want to become a police officer. It's what I've always wanted to do" but that attitude was ingrained into you since you were born.

Of course there are a lot of other possibilities within that above example, and yes I admit that someone else may have gone into a life of crime, or a life of politics, or just settled on flipping burgers for a good 20 years before going crazy. Of course, those are other people and that is missing the point. Every decision that you make is a decision that is built upon previous decisions that you've made. Follow the formula down and you will get to the basics of your upbringing and you will find that biological factors determined many of your decisions. Instincts, hunger, dependancy on a mother figure, etc, these are some of the first things to shape your decision making process.

Our disagreement may be based off of the connotations associated with the term 'free will.' Perhaps you believe Free Will to involve a lack of control over your life, a lack of desire or ability to achieve what you ultimately want. I see the lack of Free Will as the desire to achieve certain things, go certain places and experience certain things. We do what we want to do, and our desires are the shackles which will always prevent us from making a decision which is completely baseless and outside the box. Not to say that those shackles are bad mind you, in fact, they're quite a blast to have on. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://pub30.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wolfbelly>Wolfbelly</A] at: 8/5/03 12:29 am

Dalin Rifthome
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Dalin Rifthome » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:26 am

Quote:
If you do what makes you happy, why care about free will?


Ignorence IS bliss afterall.

So whaddya say Y'all? Shall we all resort back to being ignorent and being happy? ^___^ <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

Wolfbelly
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Wolfbelly » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:33 am

And kudoes to Sivak and WKD for pointing out a very good point, heated debate about something as obtuse and trivial as free will is extremely pointless. In either case, you will continue to do what you were doing before. In defence of philosophers everywhere though, I believe discussions like this are very important because they provide an opportunity to achieve a greater understanding of our surroundings. You never know, philosophy has crossed into psychology here and there and allowed for amazing breakthroughs in the understanding of the human mind. Discussions such as these may have beneficial affects some time in the future. that and I like discussing philosophy.

Whee.

Edit: Oh, and props to Zem as well. Giving credit where credit is due. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://pub30.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wolfbelly>Wolfbelly</A] at: 8/5/03 12:35 am

Dalin Rifthome
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Dalin Rifthome » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:41 am

Broadining your perspective is never pointless. <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

Sivak
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Sivak » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:29 pm

True. Personally, I believe in something if it has enough backing evidence. If it has none, then I make an educated guess until something better comes along. In this case, I see many good points for both, but no hard evidence for either. <p>Who me? I'm working with you.
Sivak, Chaos Sorceror</p>

Dalin Rifthome
 

Re: Philisophical Question

Unread postby Dalin Rifthome » Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:49 am

Thats how I live my life.

I try and use Logic whenever possible, and untill you PROVE me wrong, Im gonna stand by what I say. <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

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