Mmm, Patriotism. In Action. And maybe reverse.

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E Mouse
 

Mmm, Patriotism. In Action. And maybe reverse.

Unread postby E Mouse » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:44 pm

Quote:
UCPD officers shot a student several times with a Taser inside the Powell Library CLICC computer lab late Tuesday night before taking him into custody. At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

Video shot from a student's camera phone captured the student yelling, "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your fucking abuse of power," while he struggled with the officers.

"It was the most disgusting and vile act I had ever seen in my life," said David Remesnitsky, a 2006 UCLA alumnus who witnessed the incident.

Video Link

...

Shit. If this gets much worse, I think I'm gonna move in with Cho after I graduate. <p>


<span style="font-size:xx-small;">"Their rhetoric... You didn't put communists in his bed did you!" came Amber's indignant reply.

"Why not? All I had to do was open a gate to his bed and stick up a sign saying 'Hot virgin willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of international socialist fraternity.'"</span>

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Re: Mmm, Patriotism. In Action. And maybe reverse.

Unread postby Besyanteo » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:56 pm

We've suggested that before. He told us he'd be waiting with a baseball bat or something. Think carefully about that. <p>
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Archmage144
 

Re: Mmm, Patriotism. In Action. And maybe reverse.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:10 am

Saw it, read about it, am thoroughly disgusted. More to come later. <p>
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Kai
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Re: Mmm, Patriotism. In Action. And maybe reverse.

Unread postby Kai » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:25 am

Jesus H. Christ. <p>-------------------------
<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble. --John Wayne</span></p>

Choark
 

But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:38 am

On the other hand the guy sounded like a totally arrogant prick and I whole heartidly support randomally tasering arrogant pricks.

And why the hell didn't he leave when asked? I suppose he was making his stand on the floor or something.

When he went on his rant about abuse of power and being in this God forsaken place I would of so tasered him again. Of course they did a few seconds later anyway.

You can so tell these guys and gals watching are collage and university students too. God they should of tasared that girl while they were there. And that whiney guy who was like "Stop it, man, stop it." Jesus he was annoying. "This is abuse of ya power!" Tell ya what when they actually tasered all of them of just getting in the way of doing there jobs or just being actual students then you can complain about abuse of power.

Seriously though I would of stood up after at least the second tasering. He did scream well though. Good volume.

But yeah everyones right, they should of totally beat him with there sticks and dragged him out by the scruff of his neck instead of tasering the bastard.

And.. Hey...
Quote:
BruinCard is the official campus identification for UCLA, and is required for all students, faculty, and staff.

Quote from Here
He didn't have his BruinCard. He should of left to get his card. The libary is a university run libary. Not open to public. You're not allowed to come in and just sit and use the versilities. When he realised he didn't have he card he SHOULD of left. Damn I know I would of anyway.

But yeah, they should of totally taken his word he was a student because you can totally believe anyone who says that and completely trust them not to do anything. They weren't doing there job at all and should of just left him alone after he refused to leave the libary. How dare they abuse there power that way.

God if those were English security guards they wouldn't have tasers to use and so would have defiantly grabbed and thrown that guy out and if he got physical or laid on the floor a good few kicks and a stick to the back of the head might of convinced him otherwise. I'd of loved to see the responce to THAT scene there.

Of course if it was in England the scene would of been:
*Stick to the back of the head*
Everyone: "WTF is this shit!!!"
Guard: "Didn't have his card"
Everyone: "Oh, alright, carry on. Its what ya get. Probably should of left there chappy."

Brilliant!

A kinda serious edit:

Oh hey, I suppose how seriously you take the tasering is how seriously you take his eh.. "screams of pain." I must say those tasers must of be set to torture, because I've known guys with a bone sticking out of there leg that didn't scream that much when they were forced to actually walk a few steps.

The guy was hamming it up and its totally obvious. He defiantly wanted attention (the fact he got to have his indignation rant about the p.act just adds to it) and everyone ate it all up and because of that we'll never get a proper account of what actually happened to lead up to the whole thing. I'm sure being tasered Is painful but its not THAT painful. I'd of tasered for longer for being a damn drama queen.

I mean already I've heard he:
*Was already handcuffed when they tasered him
*Was actually shot then tasered
*Took swings at the officers
*Was actually in the middle of leaving and was tasered
*Was tasered then asked to leave
No one will now give a clear acoount because all the drama has been blown into the event and no ones too sure about what did happen.

The effects of tasers on people has also been disputed, like some say he would of lost total control of all his muscles for up to 15 minutes so couldn't of got up. But for a guy with no control of mis muscles he certainly shouted and cursed enough. The only way I'll know is if I get tasered by surprise myself or it happens to a mate I trust the word of.

But yeah.. totally... how awful. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> </div></p>Edited by: Choark&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 7:50

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Shinigori V2
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Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:37 am

Look up police brutality, Cho.

In most cases here, the police aren't allowed to use their weapons, tazers, clubs or otherwise without actual need. For instance, they can't pull a gun unless someone else has a gun, can't pull a club unless someone's got a baseball bat, and can't tazer unless the person's actually swinging. Tazering the guy while he's already on the ground? Yeah, THAT's going to get him to stand the fuck up.

Edit: Upon researching, there are claims that the police responded with tazer threats to anyone who asked for their badge numbers, and I am not suprised.

Edit2: Tazers, and electricution in general, is not pleasant, Expecially when you're not expecting it and have no reason to. Hell, doubly so when you have no reason to expect it. The screaming likely isn't as exagerated as you think. Hear that kind of clicking-buzzing sound? That's the noise tazers make. Doesn't even sound pleasant. <p>
<div style="text-align:center">What's wrong with this ring?!</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=shinigoriv2>Shinigori]&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 10:53

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Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Kai » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:29 am

Also, if you listen to some of the things he's screaming, he mentioned, "I said I would leave!" If the police wanted him to get up off the floor and do so, perhaps they should have stopped electrocuting him? <p>-------------------------
<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble. --John Wayne</span></p>

Choark
 

Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:41 am

Well of course he screamed that out with the audience he had. Like I said, with all the drama now involved it'll actually be impossible to ever find out what really happened.

And I've seen people get tasered but know very little about the pasifics of exactly what it does to you or how it feels personal, but you know they didn't scream out in pain anything like that.

Yeah it hurts like hell, but he milked it for all its worth.

So the guys very reaction to it just doesn't make me feel sorry for him at all.

Edit:

Also after rewatching the video (because I don't think I'm ever going to get itred of this one) it actually starts with him screaming "Don't you fucking touch me. Don't! You! Touch! Me."
Now its likely that one of the thing thats about is they're trying to actually move him out of the place, probably grabbing an arm or whatever, and phyiscally moving him so he would Leave - something he claimed he was doing - but he wasn't actually moving.

Whatever happened between that point and the taser is pretty open to the eight different intrepretations I've already heard of. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 11:58

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Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Capntastic » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:58 am

I agree with Cho here, guys. People ending up a martyr for their being rights violated by people charged with the tasks of justice and protection are nothing but big sissy crybaby attention whores and should be ignored.

Furthermore, personal tasers and police tasers are, I can imagine, totally different ballgames, due to different size capacitors or whatever. I've been zapped with a personal taser and it was about as painful as getting whapped in the arm- unpleasant but bearable. My dad, as a prison guard, got to recieve the brunt of a professional level taser during training and said it damn near brought him to his knees.

P.S: A minor thing, but electrocution technically means death by electric shock!

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=capntastic>Capntastic</A]&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 12:00

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Kai
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Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Kai » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:07 pm

People ending up a martyr for their being rights violated by people charged with the tasks of justice and protection are nothing but big sissy crybaby attention whores and should be ignored.

This is one reason I was so surprised to see it happened at UCLA. I mean, holy shit. What did they think he'd do? How could it not have turned into a huge media mess?

I have to say that, as a rule, pulling weapons on unarmed people isn't necessary. I'm not sure how much stock I place in the ranting he was putting out, and I'm inclined to agree that he only did it because he knew he had an audience. However, he only had a national audience because a handful of armed cops were assaulting him.

For more on possible motivations from this college student: Click here!

So yeah. There's a lot to suggest that he was trying too damned hard to get attention. But we have rules about police weapons for a reason. It's so that you can't be physically-harmed just for being annoying.

A minor thing, but electrocution technically means death by electric shock!

Noted!

Anyway. Summary. Just because they had tasers doesn't mean that an unarmed kid was enough of a threat that the tasers needed to be used. Why the hell were there so many cops in there anyway? This whole thing is a mess, and whether the kid had proper ID or not, I don't think that he did anything to warrant physical assault. <p>-------------------------
<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble. --John Wayne</span></p>Edited by: Kai&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 13:12

Archmage144
 

Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:35 pm

This is just what I was waiting for.

In other news, everyone who's saying that "this guy deserved it" is missing some key points, and I hope the police brutalize you in a semi-public place by the end of tomorrow. <p>
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Seethe347
 

Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Seethe347 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:48 pm

First of all, those cops were idiots for not zapping the cell-phone while they were at it. Also, while I do think that tazing people multiple times for refusing to leave the library after failing to present ID when checked should be the standard policy required by law for all school libraries, since that kid's a douchebag for doing it, they should have posted notification beforehand that it would happen.

I probably won't be watching this video because a six-minute video file would take forever to download onto my computer. But as for the kid, from what I gather, he isn't a total failure. Aside from being a douchebag for not leaving the library when he should have, I don't think anything else he did was worse than a sting operation. I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that he had his camera running right when this happened. All of his showboating wasn't so dumb- it got the police to do exactly what I'm sure he wanted. Now he gets to come out of this a hero and the cops who tried to show him who was boss are going to be in serious trouble.

On the one hand, he probably just did this for attention. But on the other hand, those cops should be in trouble. Despite what I said about how this should be standard procedure for dealing with douchebaggery, it is in fact not standard procedure and is illegal. Therefore, I think that these cops were motivated less by a desire to punish douchebaggery and more by a desire to be douchebags themselves. Furthermore, despite any other considerations, the police have an especially important responsibility to obey the law because to do otherwise is hypocritical and sets a bad example for everyone else.


Choark
 

Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:53 pm

Well that link just adds to other reports and such on what happened and still doesn't shed any real light on what actually happened: Though this one actually has thrown in racial slander as well, which is actually new and an interesting claim added to the varity of other things given.

Quote:
UCLA also said that Tabatabainejad refused repeated requests by a community service officer and regular campus police to provide identification or to leave. UCLA said the police decided to use the Taser to incapacitate Tabatabainejad only after the student urged other library patrons to join his resistance.

Some witnesses disputed that account, saying that when campus police arrived, Tabatabainejad had begun to walk toward the door.

In a prepared statement released late Thursday, UCLA's interim chancellor, Norman Abrams, urged the public to "withhold judgment" while the campus police department investigates. "I, too, have watched the videos, and I do not believe that one can make a fair judgment regarding the matter from the videos alone. I am encouraged that a number of witnesses have come forward and are participating in the investigation."


Like I said its going to be impossible to ever find out what really happened. Did he walk towards the door? Did he resist? He certainly didn't sound very cooperative at the beginning of that video. And the libarian guards called the cops, so hense the tasers. They generally do that for a reason. I doubt he's going to admit to threatening about his not moving, espically now as he has so many indignated people on his side.

Quote:
In other news, everyone who's saying that "this guy deserved it" is missing some key points, and I hope the police brutalize you in a semi-public place by the end of tomorrow.

Right oh! <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 14:54

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Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Nakibe » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:25 pm

Sting operation, Seethe? First off, WTF? I'm happy to support our country and all... when its not doing fucking ridiculous things. I want to make that clear right now. You know, just in case.

Second, eyewitnesses report that they caught this individual on his way out. Judging by the positioning of the incident in the video, they're probably right. Lets make this clear. He was LEAVING. That's right. Going out. Vacating the premesis. If they wanted him to leave and he's leaving, what's the big problem?

And with that established, lets get into the issue of suspicion. Did they have viable reason to think he was a particular threat to the safety of the people in the college? Was he actively resisting them (punching, kicking, etc) when they were trying to escort him away from the building? The answer to these questions as the eyewitnesses seem to say, is no. Screaming "Let me go", despite the relative merits of the person, is neither illegal nor suspicious. In fact, last I checked its kind of within your rights. >.>

Now. I don't care what the hell sort of attention whore that you think this guy was, but it sure doesn't SOUND like this behavior was worth a tasering from the police. WHETHER HE WAS A DOUCHE OR NOT IS IRRELEVANT. Gods. This is the sort of crap that we're supposed to have protection FROM. Seriously. The rest of this is sort of either made moot or still up for review. If you want to call him a douche and be glad that he got tasered, then I agree with Brian. Someone should probably give you a free demo of how being tasered multiple times feels. <p><span style="font-size:small;">

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Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:26 pm

People ending up a martyr for their being rights violated by people charged with the tasks of justice and protection are nothing but big sissy crybaby attention whores and should be ignored.

WHAT. So anyone who has their rights violated by enforcers is a jerk? Rodney King was an attention whore? People who die on account of the odd itchy-trigger-finger-y officer are themselves to blame, and nobody should pay attention to the crime committed by the enforcer? Come ON, man.

Next! They really didn't have to taser him, and especially not repeatedly. They could have stood him away from the computer, and checked up on his information. What reason did they have to consider the guy a hostile? Shouting and screaming is not against the law (noise ordinances notwithstanding), nor it is something that should be punished. It's unpleasant, but it's not dangerous.

Also, have you ever been hit by a taser, any one of you? I promise, you will sympathize with his screams of agony if you ever are in that case. Most of the time, people just pass out for a moment from the sheer trauma to their system--this guy is a hardass if he can even retain consciousness through this ordeal. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

Choark
 

.. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:35 pm

I'm going to have to say it though I tried to promise myself I wouldn't:
Quote:
People ending up a martyr for their being rights violated by people charged with the tasks of justice and protection are nothing but big sissy crybaby attention whores and should be ignored.

Aren't you all taking this quote a little too literal? Personally when I read it I actually took it for complete Irony and he wasn't agreeing with me at all. I'm kinda shocked all of you taking this so seriously, espically with the language used in it. I mean come on guys!
Quote:
<span style="font-size:small;">nothing but big sissy crybaby attention whores and should be ignored</span>

Seriously!?
Of course I could be wrong but... Really!? Come on!

And I was right: How serious you take this is on how seriously you take that screaming in pain. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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<div style="text-align:center"> </div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 15:36

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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:47 pm

Well, this IS the Discussion forum, not the Spam forum. Also, screaming in pain should rarely be taken lightly. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

Choark
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:00 pm

I find it hard to take those screams of pain seriously. Sorry. If it actually sounded like real screams of pain I'd not be as not seeing he side as I am: But I don't. I've watched and watched that video and I just can't even see how anyone there took them seriously.

Give me grunts and proper screams or other things of pain and yeah, not to be taken lightly but that guy seemed horribilly fake. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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Archmage144
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:21 pm

Let's consider the situation here.

We have one (1) student, probably about 20 years old, in a computer lab who fails to present ID. Whether he has an ID or not, he's not presenting it. School security policy says this means he has to leave.

Fuck what witnessess said or didn't say at this point; I don't care whether he was still refusing to leave or not.

Why did it take four or five police officers to deal with one unarmed guy? Why did they have to use extreme force against him? Why didn't the officers comply with legal procedures; if you ask an officer for his badge number, they're required to give it to you. And let's be realistic; maybe you don't care what happens to people because of their ethnic background because you're a white guy, but do you really think they would've given him so much shit if he were too?

Would you all still be saying the guy "deserved it" if the cops had whipped out billy clubs and started wailing on him? A taser is not a completely harmless device. What if the kid had a heart problem or a pacemaker? He's got severe bruises. Police officers have filed lawsuits against the taser companies because of the severity of wounds they received from taser shocks during training exercises, and those guys knew what they were getting into and presumably volunteered for it.

If we're going to bring use of force into this at all, one taser shock should've been enough. When the guy said he was going to leave, all it would've taken was one officer, maybe two, to stand back and watch him do it. How necessary was it, really, to circle around him with weapons and continue to poke him with 300,000 volts of electricity because he wouldn't stand up? I've seen video footage of grown men, tough-looking guys, that start crying when hit with a police or military taser.

I still stand by my original statement. Anyone who thinks "this guy deserved it" or "he's just a whiny bitch trying to get attention" should be a victim of police brutality, and I would hold you down and taser you myself until you were reduced to a screaming pile of meekly-quivering human flesh if I could. <p>
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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Idran1701 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:43 pm

I agree with the general sentiment that the police went too far, this is a pretty horrible example of police brutality, etc. But I have to say, Brian, that response's going a bit too far. I mean, what purpose would that serve if you did do it? "You disagree with me, so let's see how it feels when it happens to you"? That's...honestly, extraordinarily ludicrous, whether you're using some hyperbole to back your position, trying to make a point about police brutality, or honestly being serious about it. I don't know it by name off hand if it is, but that sort of position has to be a logical fallacy there, and it's definitely coming close to an ad hominem. Edging close to the classic anti-critic "if you're so smart let's see you write/draw/play something better" position too. <p>

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Choark
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:53 pm

Quote:
Why did it take four or five police officers to deal with one unarmed guy?

Thats actually one of my questions. Why? Why were five officers called in. Again there is normally a reason for even one cop to be called in and it perhaps a reason we haven't been told yet for whatever reason.
Quote:
And let's be realistic; maybe you don't care what happens to people because of their ethnic background because you're a white guy, but do you really think they would've given him so much shit if he were too?

Yes? No? God when I first watched the video I couldn't even tell he was of an ethnic background which was why the fact it suddenly came up earlier was so interesting because I hadn't heard it before - which seems weird considering all the other stuff said on comments for the video and links given.
Quote:
I still stand by my original statement. Anyone who thinks "this guy deserved it" or "he's just a whiny bitch trying to get attention" should be a victim of police brutality, and I would hold you down and taser you myself until you were reduced to a screaming pile of meekly-quivering human flesh if I could.

Right oh! As I said eariler I am rather interested in the whole taser thing and how much it does hurt, what damage it does do and would actually be willing to recieve these mulitply shocks from sheer curiosity.

As a side note did anyone find this interesting/darkly amusing?
Quote:
The incident follows the recent announcement that four of the campus police department's nearly 60 full-time sworn officers had won so-called <span style="font-size:large;">Taser Awards</span> granted by the manufacturer of the device to "law enforcement officers who save a life in the line of duty through extraordinary use of the Taser."

Seems almost ironic.

Also I still don't see why? why!? why!? WHY!?!? Didn't he leave as soon as he relised he didn't have his ID card in the first place. The fact that he must of:
** been asked to leave by the guards and didn't do so
** and then stayed for long enough for the Cops to arrive on the scene
**and for things to ecilate that far is mind boggerling. As soon as he saw there was going to be trouble he should of just left for his Card or gone to a public libary. I'm sure most of us would of done the same as well.
Quote:
Would you all still be saying the guy "deserved it" if the cops had whipped out billy clubs and started wailing on him?

Interesting you asked that actually as I actually answered that up there, which was a depending yes. Though my was les then wailing and one hit. But even still. I'm rather interested in what IS the best way to deal with someone who was completely refusing to move: saying that he was, as he certinaly seemed to.

Its weird but if I DID repeatidly not listen to what guards said and then the police asked of me, I would expect for my face to meet with the pavement - and if I then continually made a scene, swear at them AND not listen to them - I'd expect even worse. Seriously. If I was being such a prat I would, honestly, completely expect the cops to deal with me. Maybe its just because of me having to deal with cops who are used to people from my hometown or something, but yeah, if you repeatidly not listen or talk shit to them when ya doing something ya not supposed to you can't expect to get away with it. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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Kai
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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Kai » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:59 pm

I reiterate my original point.

I don't care how annoying, arrogant, or whatever this kid was. He was unarmed, not a physical threat to the officers or anyone around him, and they attacked him with weapons.

I'll concede that the kid should/shouldn't have done lots of things, but I'm drawing a line between what he did and what constitutes a provocation to physical violence.

Think back to elementary school. Anyone else ever in this position?

"Hey Ashley. Why did you hit Bruce in the face with a chair?"

"Because he was annoying me and wouldn't stop."

If you were the teacher, would that be enough reason to condemn Bruce and give me a gold star on my little conduct card for the week?

I sure hope that's not what you'd do.

And yes. I really did hit a boy with a chair in third grade. He was pissing me off. Does that mean he deserved a chair in the face? I can say now, as a twenty-year-old adult, that whether he should or shouldn't have been pestering me was irrelevant. I didn't need to be violent, because I wasn't in danger.

The cops weren't in danger. The kid wasn't a threat to himself, to them, or to the other students. He was being obnoxious. You don't hurt people for being obnoxious.

Are police officers so spotless and infallible that these rules don't apply to them? Are they so sacrosanct that once given weapons they can use them however they please?

A note for Choark. If you continue making this about what England would do and why it's awesome, I'm going to make a separate thread in here about why America isn't an English colony anymore. Suffice it to say: We're not English for a reason, and if that's how they handle things in the UK, I'm glad of it. <p>-------------------------
<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble. --John Wayne</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A]&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 17:03

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Jak Snide
 
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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Jak Snide » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:08 pm

Quote:
The incident follows the recent announcement that four of the campus police department's nearly 60 full-time sworn officers had won so-called Taser Awards granted by the manufacturer of the device to "law enforcement officers who save a life in the line of duty through extraordinary use of the Taser." The award stemmed from an incident in which officers subdued a patient who allegedly threatened staff at the campus' Neuropsychiatric Hospital with metal scissors.


I bet the manufacturers won't be happy about this bit of publicity.

Anyway, regardless of whether the guy was milking the event, or being just a little but foolish in not showing his ID card/not just doing what the police said, he wasn't armed or dangerous and thus most likely didn't warrant a tasering (assuming he didn't swing his fists or anything and spark a knee jerk reaction). Given that the things are meant to incapacitate people I doubt that they could justifiably be used against someone who's just being surly.

As for the beginning of the video, I'm guessing it missed out the start of the event, probably due to the guy first having to realise something was going down and then switch his phone's camera on.

Quote:
A note for Choark. If you continue making this about what England would do and why it's awesome, I'm going to make a separate thread in here about why America isn't an English colony anymore. Suffice it to say: We're not English for a reason, and if that's how they handle things in the UK, I'm glad of it.


I'm suddenly reminded when a guy was shot dead on the London underground (metro system) by a police officer not too long after the bombing last year. Turns out he was completely innocent too, and (though my memory is foggy), didn't do anything to provoke the police officer. Just looked like he had a weapon, or something. Was a scene made about that, and I'm pretty sure the officer involved didn't come out of it even remotely clean.

As for Cho, I think he might be playing the devil's advocate here just to provoke discussion, rather than everyone just going "damn pigs!." I may be wrong, though :p

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Seethe347
 

Re: But he didn't have his card

Unread postby Seethe347 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:14 pm

Nakibe: I think you've missed the point of my post. First off, you seem to think I'm calling what the police did a sting operation. No. I'm saying that what the kid did was, at worst, a "sting operation" against the police. A further point of my post is that the motivation of showboating isn't so bad if it gets people in trouble who should be in trouble- that is, these police. I'm moved to think that this is what happened because of the fact that he "happened" to have his camera phone running at the time.

As far as my idea that he should have been tased if the legal situation were somewhat different- hey, I'll condemn myself right now to being tased multiple times if I ever refuse to leave some place where I'm not supposed to be after being told by the authorities to leave. If I were the king of the United States, a private organization like a college would be allowed to set whatever policies it wants for dealing with people on its own property as long as it reveals those policies clearly to the public. I'm not going to "protect" anyone from a private individual or company's property rights. As long as the consequences for behaving in a way that could be avoided don't come as a surprise, all's fair.


Choark
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:18 pm

I didn't say England the second time: I said my home town, which yes is a part of England but I purposefully didn't say 'All of England' does it this way. Nor did I say it was awsome, when mentioning it I only said I agree if I did say anything of that sort. In fact with the home town I just said it happened that way so may leave me very biased in what I expect Cops to do if you give them shit. Not once did I say YAY Its Right This Way - only its what I'd expect.

And I'm not sorry for only being able to go from my personal experiences or use the country, town or city I'm actually living in as a reference point to how I feel about something. Espically this seems to be a discussion on how you feel about the video, and if it was right, which is very personal.

And yeah, America Isn't England: I know. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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Archmage144
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:22 pm

In response to Idran, yeah, the last part of my post is hyperbole. It's not really intended to support my argument in any way, it's my feelings bleeding into this discussion because that's just how pissed I am at the very idea that anyone would suggest that this was somehow justifiable given present evidence. It's not a logical statement or intended to be part of any logical argument I may present.

I try very hard to control my emotions, but it's a damned good thing I wasn't there when this shit was going down, because I would've been more than happy to start a riot, and if I had any say it would be Kent State all over again. It's probably better that that didn't happen and that the war is being fought with cameraphones and information instead of fists. This is the kind of shit that cannot be allowed to happen.

No matter what anyone says about the guy's actions or intentions, he never posed a threat to himself or anyone else. The use of force here was not warranted, no matter how "whiny" he was being. His civil liberties were being violated, and I hope he wins his suit. Every one of those police officers should lose their jobs.

Edit: It's a good thing that you aren't king of the US, Seethe, and that no one else is, either, because a lot of the reforms that have been put in place in the last century exist to do things like prevent employers from intimidating their workers. UCLA's campus might be private property, but would you stand up for mall cops if they tasered some guy who wasn't being violent if he refused to leave because the mall was closing? <p>
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Rubenstine
 

Okay, whatthefuck

Unread postby Rubenstine » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:23 pm

Seriously, I thought you all was smarter then this. I thought I wouldn't see such a knee jerk liberal response to something like this here. Especilly out of friggin' Brian of all people.

To quickly sum up what ya'll should be thinking: They're all retarded. The cops, the kid, the entire school. If any of those people thought instead of just reacted, none of this crap would have happened.

The cops overreacted sure, but not because they're a bunch of pricks with superiority complexes, (or maybe they are, I dunno.) They overreacted because that's what every person in a security job does nowadays. Ever been to an airport in the past five years? Dear fuckin' lord. Their first reaction is to assume that the has a gun. Or a bomb. Or some kinda crazy gun bomb, like a bomb that shoots guns that themselves explode. Explode into BULLETS. But instead of calmly taking care of the situation like professionals, they read the idiot his rights and fucking tazer him. Real bright. That won't start a riot.

And the Kid. Hoo boy. I won't go into too much detail 'cause I think Cho summed it up pretty well: Fucker saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. Just you wait. If he's not writing books and showing up on the toob-o-vision giving exclusive interviews about his harrowing experience, then he's a bigger retard then first suspected.

And I seriously doubt the strength of the tazer was as bad as what he was making it out to be. I mean, come on. Seriously.

And then there's the rest of the student body. Mother fuck do I hate college students. Of course all of them can instantly analyze any situation and come up with a perfectly rational reaction to it. No wait, no they don't. They just bitch and moan because they think they can make a difference or some deluded shit. Then they record it because they need to GET THE MESSAGE OUT. Not FAN THE FLAMES OF THE FURNACES IN THE HEARTS OF THE RETARDED, mind. Their intentions are pure and for the greater good.

Anyhow, in conclusion they should fire the cops and kick the kid out of the school. Also, I'm going to invent that gun bomb. That sounds like a pretty bitchin' idea.


...and I am getting kinda bitter, aren't I? I gotta stop hanging out in the B.net forums.


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Kai
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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Kai » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:24 pm

Some people here think the kid deserved to be tased, or at the very least should have expected it and avoided it. Near as I can tell, Choark and Seethe and whoever else are in that camp.

I'd like the pro-tasering group to address my point about children beating on each other for no reason. Answer for me why it's okay to abandon the rules we teach kids once adults with real weapons are involved.

Why should we expect unethical and illegal behavior from officers? Why should we tolerate it? Just because it happens sometimes doesn't mean it's okay and you should just try and keep out of trouble.

Is vs. Ought logical fallacy. Just because something happened, doesn't mean it's right. I think we can all agree the kid got zapped. The question here is whether he should have been. <p>-------------------------
<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble. --John Wayne</span></p>

Rube again
 

blah

Unread postby Rube again » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:33 pm

Quote:
I'd like the pro-tasering group to address my point about children beating on each other for no reason. Answer for me why it's okay to abandon the rules we teach kids once adults with real weapons are involved.

Why should we expect unethical and illegal behavior from officers? Why should we tolerate it? Just because it happens sometimes doesn't mean it's okay and you should just try and keep out of trouble.

Is vs. Ought logical fallacy. Just because something happened, doesn't mean it's right. I think we can all agree the kid got zapped. The question here is whether he should have been.


Short answer: 'cause they're cops.

Longer answer, but not too long 'cause I got other things I really should be doing: They really don't know what the kid was capable of. Most likely he's just a skinny douche with an authority problem. However, it was very possible he had some kind of device that could have put the whole freakin' school in danger, so the cops have to put themselves in a situation where they have the advantage. Otherwise, they're putting everyone else in danger and instead of reading about some whiny asshole who got roughed up, we're reading about the tragic gun bomb incident of '06.


Archmage144
 

Re: Okay, whatthefuck

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:35 pm

I'd expect you, Rube, of all people, who I always assumed was a pretty bright guy, to realize that use of force against peaceful protesters is pretty much universally regarded as "wrong" and "an infringement of civil rights."

Maybe everyone involved in this whole scenario is "retarded." Maybe the kid was "acting," but I've never heard anyone who was acting scream like that. That's a cop out (hah, pun) response to the whole situation. I agree with you that the cops should lose their jobs, but why the hell should the kid get kicked out of school, assuming he's a student? Expelled from a university that he's paying huge sums of money to attend because he made a scene in a computer lab? Now that's retarded.

What if the people brandishing tasers weren't in police uniforms? What if they were just "computer lab staff?" As far as I'm aware, those guys weren't even real city or state police officers, they were campus rent-a-cops. Would this have been okay then?

No matter who they are and no matter what the kid did, the cops started it, and instead of handling the situation "like professionals" as you succinctly described it, they fucked up big time. That's my primary concern here. Not that the kid may have been injured. Not that he was whining or that the student body was watching. Nothing here makes any difference to me except what the officers did. The appropriate action for them to take against someone who refuses to leave private property without showing an ID would take place in court, not on the property with use of weapons. Come on, people. Press charges against him for trespassing or something legitimate. Don't break out weapons against an unarmed guy because he won't get up off the floor.

Edit: And to follow on what I'm saying about rent-a-cops, my first reaction if I believed the kid to be dangerous would be to call the real cops, who I have to hope would be more professional about a kid who has demonstrated no threat. Now everybody involved just looks like a bunch of power-abusing morons. <p>
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Justice Augustus
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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Justice Augustus » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:35 pm

I think by far the worst part was where they were screaming "Stand up or you'll get tazed again". I wonder if those officers have ever felt the effect of a tazer, it can disrupt motor function for a short amount of time. Then they taze him again and once again demand that he stands? That's not just brutality, that's ignorance of their own ordinance.

The guy should have left, perhaps, but being in a library should not be a tazerable offense. Sounds to me like somebody didn't like it when their authorita was disrespected, how immature. <p>

"Moreover, when on the following night, much to his dismay, [Caesar] had a dream of raping his own mother, the soothsayers greatly encouraged him by their interpretations of it: namely, that he was destined to conquer the earth" - Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars - Julius Caesar, chapter 7</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=suicidalsprite>Suicidal] at: 11/17/06 17:36

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PriamNevhausten
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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:43 pm

Well, you saw that he was right there by the exit when he got tasered. I'd say he was complying fairly well--either they were about to get him out of the place when the video started, or they blocked his way out. Let that one stew for a moment.

Also, when you disobey an officer's orders, that's perfectly allowed: It's called civil disobedience. They do what the law says to do with you, and everyone goes about their daily business. The police are not supposed to punish you again and again and again with weapons designed to incapacitate and deliver crippling pain. If they do, I'd say that it's perfectly understandable for you to be just a tad upset with them.

Furthermore, if they're so practiced in the use of tasers, shouldn't they know full well when NOT to use one? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

Dr Rube phd
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Dr Rube phd » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:48 pm

Well, Brian, I think you kinda miss the point here 'cause that didn't look like a peaceful protest to me. Looked more like an idiot raising hell and the 'rent-a-cops' or whatever reacting to that. As is, you know. Their jobs.

I will agree they acted wrong though. Fuck, this entire debate is proof of that.

And I will say, despite it being a potential slippery slope, that I'd rather see one asshole get tazered then a whole college library end up dead.

You're spending too much time in college, dude. You're turning into one of THEM.


Rube McRubester
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Rube McRubester » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:52 pm

Quote:
Well, you saw that he was right there by the exit when he got tasered. I'd say he was complying fairly well--either they were about to get him out of the place when the video started, or they blocked his way out. Let that one stew for a moment.


Dude, no we didn't. We saw the backs of a bunch of students while he screamed like a two year old with a good vocabulary. We, as a mater of fact, have no real idea what actually happened. Only second, and in some cases, third hand accounts of it. The video was pretty shitty, you gotta admit.


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Kai
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Re: Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Kai » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:00 pm

Quote:
Also, when you disobey an officer's orders, that's perfectly allowed: It's called civil disobedience. They do what the law says to do with you, and everyone goes about their daily business. The police are not supposed to punish you again and again and again with weapons designed to incapacitate and deliver crippling pain. If they do, I'd say that it's perfectly understandable for you to be just a tad upset with them.


Thank you, Priam. <p>-------------------------
<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble. --John Wayne</span></p>

Archmage144
 

Re: Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:07 pm

Quote:
You're spending too much time in college, dude. You're turning into one of THEM.

I don't normally acknowledge repeated ad hominem attacks, but if it makes you feel any better I still think that people should be allowed to own guns and that we ought to drill the hell out of Alaska.

Peaceful protest is still peaceful protest no matter how much someone is screaming if they haven't started using physical violence. Whether you think that the guy was "just being retarded" or not, his initial refusal to leave the building qualifies as peaceful protest. I think he should've gotten up and left, but there are conflicting reports about whether he was actually doing that already or not. Because they conflict and I wasn't there, I'm inclined to ignore his behavior because it no longer matters what he did. What matters is that legal process was not followed.

I'd be in the same position no matter what he did, as long as he never posed a threat to himself or others; he should've gotten a subpoena in his mail the next day to report to court for a trespassing civil suit, not gotten tasered on the floor and dragged out of the building. <p>
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Choark
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:07 pm

Right I'm going to come completely straight out: Though I actually don't expect people to forgive me, believe me or care too much either way, but I'm actually doing this not because of my image or what people think of me but because I actually upset someone I didn't actually want to. Which I knew would probably happen but I'm an asshole so did so anyway.

Tell the truth: I'm totally winding this up as far as it could go. Purposefully even made a LJ to the same effect.

I techically never lied once. The guy was a prick. I would expect trouble if I caused similar trouble. I do find his screams fake. I'm not as up in arms about it as I probably should be because of the man involved. When it could of been so easily avoided I can't muster the sympathy for him.

However: He obviously shouldn't of been tasered. Its that simple. I'm saying it now before I upset things so far I do irrepensible damage in some form. Its bloody obvious they went too far as force went. I don't really feel sorry for the guy in any way though, aside from ouch, but they shouldn't of done that.

I'm being a complete prick of a bastard. On purpose. For no other reason for amusement.

To Kai though:
Your chair thing is interesting but I see it more like this.
I see it as a kid who has his favorite chair, been ordered to move from it, but won't move at all and so holds himself there, grabbing the chair. A child tells him to move because they were told to but he still doesn't move so the kid gets the teacher. The teacher tells him to move and move and move and he doesn't. Then our attention is pulled away and suddenly hear a scream. The next thing we see is the child continually smacking the child. The child is screaming he didn't do anything. The teacher is smacking him.

I see both at fault. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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Archmage144
 

Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:09 pm

Quote:
I'm being a complete prick of a bastard. On purpose. For no other reason for amusement.

You know, we recently banned two people for this. Should I ban you?

Edit: Totally hypothetical question, of course, and practically rhetorical as well... <p>
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Choark
 

Re: Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Choark » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:10 pm

Quote:
civil disobedience

I've heard this been thrown around in the posts below that video actually and some people pointed out that civil disobedience Doesn't, in fact, allow you to completely disreguard doing what a cops telling you as it IS against the law. Espically in a situation like that.

Still, I find the whole concept of being allowed to being disobedience very strange. What are the guidelines for it exactly? <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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Kai
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Re: .. okay angry at me fine but...

Unread postby Kai » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:11 pm

Eh. The main issue here for me is that the actions of the campus police weren't justified. I don't care what else is on the table right now, because quite frankly I think other topics of discussion are largely irrelevant.

Is this right or isn't it? I say the kid shouldn't have been tased. I say that even if you can reasonably expect cops to abuse their authority, and even if you can kind of see why, they still don't have the right to do it.

Also, just saw the points about civil disobedience:

While not legal, because otherwise you wouldn't be disobeying anything, it's considered in American culture to be a valid way of getting your point across. If you disagree with the law, you can go ahead and disobey as long as you don't hurt anyone. As Priam stated, the next thing to happen is almost always that you get arrested.

But even if you get arrested, you still made your point in the meantime. That's what this kid was doing. He could have taken a swing at an officer to "resist" their actions. But he didn't. He simply wouldn't comply. This has a lot of cultural precedent, and near as I can tell the only choices here were: go along with an action you believe to be unjust, resist violently, or resist non-violently.

In America, you generally get more respect for resisting without the use of violence. <p>-------------------------
<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble. --John Wayne</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A]&nbsp; Image at: 11/17/06 18:15

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