ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

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Nakibe
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ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Nakibe » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:38 pm

Something random that I've always wondered about ever since I first hurd the three words "I Hate Politics" is "Why"?

Dictionary.com's fourth definition of politics is "Intrigue or maneuvering within a political unit or group in order to gain control or power". Now, admittedly this is apparently a less-used definition of politics, but it is the one that I personally feel is most true to reality. Politics in my view is more than just old people in Washington discussing the weather in China.. or whatever happens to come up.

But eh, what I'm getting at is this. What is "politics" to YOU? How do you feel about it? And if you DO hate it, why?


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby E Mouse » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:32 am

Modern Politics -> Brainwashing.

This should be self-explanatory. <p>


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:59 am

...Only in a rebellious and ridiculous "rage against the machine" sense, E-Mouse. Yes, naturally, one side or another will attempt to sway you to their views, just like in any field, but are you really trying to argue that politicians are engaging in tactics meant to supress ones free will and force them to take on a certain view? And if so, what tactics are you claiming they're using to achieve this end? Some kind of magic campaign ad that can force people into a certain side? <p>

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Zemyla » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:22 pm

To me, politics = fear. Each side says that if the other one is elected, the world will end in a terrible explosion fnord. <p>-----
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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:45 pm

Ignoring the assumption of a two-party system, since it's a fair guess that you're talking purely about American politics there: Don't most people chalk up the Dems losing pretty much everything that'd be important since Clinton being the fact that they _aren't_ willing to do that, but have merely tak en the quite ineffective strategy of going purely on the defensive against the swarm of Republican attack ads? <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=idran1701>Idran1701</A] at: 4/23/06 14:46

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Nakibe » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:02 pm

The fear only results because each side is busy trying to CRUSH debate over the issues which they represent. In order to assure that they get votes on any issue, no matter how clear-cut it is in the long run for one side or another, they MUST stop people from actually debating the issues at hand.

As a result, Republican attack ads, Democratic seeming whininess, and the whole idea that each side has that makes the other side seem like the bad guys on any given particular issue. OMG THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY HORRIBLE PEOPLE!!! <p><span style="font-size:small;">

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:37 pm

That, I would agree with, yes. The constant problem of both sides in the US focusing on talking points rather than discussing the real issues. But you do have to lay some of the blame on the media for being so soft with politicians, and letting them get away with it. <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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Unread postby The Maltese One » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:22 pm

It's too similar to the Maltese scenario.

Too similar.


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Re: .

Unread postby Idran1701 » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:03 pm

Any chance you could expand on that, Dan? I'm curious to learn what the political situation is like for other countries, as outside from a general sense of stuff in some of the "major" nations I am sadly deficient of such knowledge. <p>

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Wolfbelly » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:11 pm

"politics" to me is generally machinations within a community geared towards the purpose of gaining power. Things such as name-dropping, friend-gathering, trend-copying, people-following, etc. are all "political" actions that you've likely done or seen someone else do. The politics that I hate are machinations performed specifically to hurt someone or use someone as a stepping stone to gain that aforementioned power. <p>Image</p>

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Ganonfro » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:47 pm

Politics to me is the game that everyone rather knows how to play, but few excell at, and even fewer like to do.

I think mostly the same as Saladfingers seems to, but I don't always think that politics always have to involve a power struggle.... Just to make certain people who have power have less of it. I think of it more as a destructive influence instead of a constructive one.


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby BrainWalker » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:00 pm

Politics is one big soap opera starring old people in businesswear. It's pretty hilarious until you stop and realize that these people are responsible for governing our world, and then it just gets kind of depressing.

Politics isn't necessarily inherently bad, since some politicians actually do want to help make the world a better place, but it does seem to be rather vulnerable to corruption. Or perhaps it is no more corrupt than any other institution, it's just more noticeable in politics 'cause the things politicians do tend to affect the rest of us in some way. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=brainwalker>BrainWalker</A]&nbsp; Image at: 4/24/06 21:01

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Nakibe » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:23 pm

Well, when you think about it... political corruption is easy. I mean, we're talking about stuff that affects hundreds of thousands of lives daily, with implications that reach far beyond just saying "yes" or "no" to a bill. Combine that with the fact that very few issues are ones that our elected officials are even PARTIALLY knowledgable on, and there you go.

After that, its easy to just listen to people that say that they've got the answer and that offer to pay you money and favors to do things their way. After all, most elected positions don't pay nearly that well.... <p><span style="font-size:small;">

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Wolfbelly » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:31 am

What's also really easy to do is just label a faceless group as "the enemy" and do nothing, confident that your hatred of reality will somehow take root and change things.

Maybe I'm going off on a purely speculative, unbased rant here, but for a group of people who generally think pretty highly of themselves this has been a really weak, vague and completely ignorant discussion on politics.

When you're actually faced with a political action or gesture that you disagree with, how many of you voice your opinion?

How many of you have actually fought for some sort of vague political cause? And I'm not talking incidental donations to easter seals, but rather actively getting out, writing and email, and letting someone in The Big Haus know that you're displeased?

If you have, good. If you haven't, own up to your apathy and stop whining. <p>Image</p>

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby EKDS5k » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:32 am

I don't always think that politics always have to involve a power struggle....

You get off to a good start here, and I almost think you're hinting at a belief that people can work together to run the country effectively.

Just to make certain people who have power have less of it.

Then you say this, and show at least a little bit of ignorance, because that phrase = power struggle. In a two-party system, if you lower the other guy's power, you have to raise your own (and vice-versa: if you lose power, the other guy automatically gains it). Kind of a dumb thing to say, don't you think?

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ekds5k>EKDS5k</A]&nbsp; Image at: 4/27/06 0:36

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Archmage144 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:40 pm

Politics is zero-sum game in America, which is an unfortunate fact. Doc's hit the nail on the head as far as my observations go; it's always one side pushing an agenda that the other side is violently opposed to.

Of course, in our country one side has bad ideas and the other "side" has no ideas, so that leaves us in a pretty shitty position. <p>
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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Ganonfro » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:22 pm

Well, it was more so from my vagueness that I still agree with what I say. Though it's nice to know you still have the same amount of tact as always is reassuring, Doc. You know... ripping apart my one sentence like you did. Good to know you still take the "attack first" stance on someone's opinion instead of finding out what they meant before you tear it in twine.

Making someone who has a mass of power lose their influence, it equalizes. If the person fighting against them really isn't that influential (and still manages to win the fight) it's not so much them gaining power, but more getting on par with the rest of the group. After all, for how much "All men are created equal", there are far too many people in our country ( since I don't know what it's like in Canada or anywhere else) who act, and whole heartedly believe the fact that it's just not that way. As long as there are people who look, sound, act, hell even smell different, things will never be equal. Someone will think downward towards someone that they believe has disfavourable traits.

I was more just stating politics as being more a destructive system in our society, where people break others around them down, thus making themselves seem better than they are. After all, what do we see in any election, instead of someone only pushing their own positive traits, they make counter campaigns pointing out what is wrong with the other person. People always remember someone's faults before they remember their strengths, or so it's been in my experience.


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby NebulaQueen » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:04 pm

Politics = influence. The people involved all want their own interests to be fulfilled, so they have to find a way to make sure it happens. So, politicians do what they can, using both diplomacy and manipulation. This can include comprimise, cooperation, forging allies, rallying behind so-and-so, , bending the truth, intimidation, and straight out mud slinging. That's not all there is to it, but I'm sure you get the point. The interests also have a vast range, be it altruism or utter corruption, and everything in between. However, the problem comes when a politician's interests clash with somebody else's interests, be they that of another politician or the general public. That's when politics can get downright nasty. <p>

"My naturally quivering state makes any display of fear deliciously arbitrary" - Manowar Leader, Scary-Go-Round</p>Edited by: NebulaQueen at: 4/27/06 16:21

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Idran1701 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:11 pm

Ganon, if they are getting on par with the rest of the group, and before it happened they were below the rest of the group, that is gaining power. I don't see how that could not be interpreted as gaining power. They had less power before it happened, and they had more after.

Also...really, that's how a debate works. It's your job to present your argument, it's not the other person's job to force it out of you. And if your meaning isn't clear, that's a blow to your side, not his. <p>

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby BrainWalker » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:17 pm

Oh, looks like things are heating up! It might be time to start popping the popcorn.

For the record, I don't hate politics so much as I am leery of people who want to get me to pay exessive attention to them and what they have to say, especially if their track record isn't so hot. I don't claim to be a high exalted grand poobah of the political "scene"; up on all the current goings on and bills and laws and codes and programs and issues and WHATEVER. But I am not naïve enough to believe that all politicians are, either. Or that they even care to be.

When an election rolls around, I actually read up on the issues and candidates that are on the ballot, and I've been known to actually work the polls on occasion, but that's about as far as my political activism goes. I can write letters until my arm falls off, but are one or two, or even one or two dozen letters out of the thousands my representatives get really going to change the world? Probably not. Just because I don't feel like organizing some kind of rally or political movement doesn't mean I can't say what I think about politics. I guess it does mean you don't really have to listen, though. Which I guess is kind of the way I like it, in a wierd sort of way. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=brainwalker>BrainWalker</A]&nbsp; Image at: 4/27/06 16:19

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Ganonfro » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:00 pm

Idran, I'm not denying that someone is gaining power, but that's all you people really seem to be stuck on. I see politics more as a merge to the equivalence instead of power flux crom negative to positive and vice versa.

Also, I wasn't aware I was debating anything instead of putting my views open to public. I don't take people calling me ignorant when they're ignorant to what I mean very kindly, if you hadn't noticed. Seeing how this was us "defining our views on politics". I can see people are already more forward about telling others that they're wrong. Now please, remember what the original topic was about before you tell someone they're ignorant.


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Idran1701 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:15 pm

...Well, you're right, I seem to have misread the first post. My apologies, then. I'll step out of the...well, not discussion, whatever it is, to avoid derailing it further.

Though I have to admit, I do take a small bit of offense at your claim that I called you ignorant. Even if I had been right, that wasn't what I did, I merely pointed out what I took as a misconception on your part. There's a difference between saying someone's wrong and saying they're ignorant. <p>

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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby EKDS5k » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:18 pm

Well, it was more so from my vagueness that I still agree with what I say. Though it's nice to know you still have the same amount of tact as always is reassuring, Doc. You know... ripping apart my one sentence like you did. Good to know you still take the "attack first" stance on someone's opinion instead of finding out what they meant before you tear it in twine.

You know, with this paragraph, I realise I owe you an apology. I thought you had said something dumb, but now it's clear that English isn't your first language. The first sentence doesn't make any sense. The second one is akward. The third one reveals that you don't actually know how a debate works. See, what you do in a debate is take other people's points, find the flaws, and then back them up with your own side. As for the last sentence, well, from now on I'll try to be as defensive, vague and ambiguous as possible, just so it doesn't seem like I'm being agressive.

You then go on to basically restate the same thing, giving an example of a power struggle, and saying it's not. Any time you try to either get yourself more influence/power OR knock someone else down a peg, that's a power struggle. Then you mention something about equality, which....really doesn't pertain to the issue at hand. Yeah, people aren't equal, and yeah, people tend to do what's best for themselves. So?

I can write letters until my arm falls off, but are one or two, or even one or two dozen letters out of the thousands my representatives get really going to change the world? Probably not.

Everyone's votes or letters count just as much as everyone else's (incidentally, Ganon, I think this is what was being referred to in the "all men are created equal" line).

I don't want to make too many comments about American politics, since I really don't know or care too much about them. But I think a lot of you watch too many movies and news broadcasts. I wouldn't get my politics information from blogs or the Daily Show, either.

I missed Ganon's last post in my last scan of the thread:

Idran, I'm not denying that someone is gaining power, but that's all you people really seem to be stuck on. I see politics more as a merge to the equivalence instead of power flux crom negative to positive and vice versa.

And that's still a kind of power struggle, which you keep saying it's not.

Also, I wasn't aware I was debating anything instead of putting my views open to public. I don't take people calling me ignorant when they're ignorant to what I mean very kindly, if you hadn't noticed. Seeing how this was us "defining our views on politics". I can see people are already more forward about telling others that they're wrong. Now please, remember what the original topic was about before you tell someone they're ignorant.

I didn't say you were ignorant (okay, I alluded to it in the beginning of this post), I said what you posted was kind of dumb. There's a big difference.

Also, you can't have a serious conversation about something without some form of debate involved. Any time that two or more contrasting views are presented and discussed, that's a debate. I reiterate my comment about English being a second language for you.


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Ganonfro » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:18 pm

Sorry Idran, I meant the ignorant part towards Doc, where he literally said that I was ignorant. You didn't say that and I'm sorry if it was implied.

Doc. Now we're debating. We haven't been. I said something, you called me ignorant, I claimed you didn't try to gain any further information before you judged what I said. So far you haven't really paid attention to that bit.

I haven't said it isn't a power struggle, in fact, I even stated I DID say it was one. I just see it differently than you. Is that so hard to understand that I'm not saying you're wrong? I'm just defending myself from you telling me I'm wrong. Why? Because you haven't given me sufficient proof that I should think I am, other than yourself restating what I haven't said.

I said it doesn't always have to be a power struggle, why? Because politics are a comprimise, and even though I didn't mention it, there are many times where two sides aren't just clashing, but are trying to work things out. Sorry, it's not a "struggle" when no one is "struggling". Now shut the hell up about me "saying it's not a power struggle", because I said it's not always one.

And thanks for telling me that English isn't my first language. If your version of English is one where, instead of asking someone for clarification on what they meant, you insult their integrity instead of you know... asking, then I'm glad it's not my "first language". Also, I completely accepted it's a power struggle. Sorry you don't read the first line of my last post.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ganonfro@rpgww60462>Ganonfro</A] at: 4/27/06 18:23

EKDS5k
 

Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby EKDS5k » Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:20 am

No, no. I didn't start out by calling you ignorant. In fact, I haven't come out and said "Ganonfro, you're dumb" at all. You said something that was kind of stupid, though. Here it is again: I don't always think that politics always have to involve a power struggle.... Just to make certain people who have power have less of it. In that sentence, which you did type (I confirmed it with someone else, to make sure I wasn't imagining it), you say "It's not always a power struggle" and then go on to describe a type of power struggle.

Doc. Now we're debating. We haven't been.

Everything you say on a message board is up for debate, especially in something called a "Discussion Forum."

I said it doesn't always have to be a power struggle, why? Because politics are a comprimise, and even though I didn't mention it, there are many times where two sides aren't just clashing, but are trying to work things out. Sorry, it's not a "struggle" when no one is "struggling". Now shut the hell up about me "saying it's not a power struggle", because I said it's not always one.

But trying to come to a compromise is just another form of power struggle. Each side doesn't want to get screwed over, and wants to come out of it as best they can. Any time two agendas are being pushed, whether there's hostility or not, that's a power struggle.

And thanks for telling me that English isn't my first language. If your version of English is one where, instead of asking someone for clarification on what they meant, you insult their integrity instead of you know... asking, then I'm glad it's not my "first language".

My "version" of English is one where we think about what we say, then type it, then proofread it to make sure it makes sense and doesn't contradict itself, and then hit "Add Reply." Like Idran said, it's up to you to say what you mean, all I have to go on is what you posted.

To be clear, I have no issue with you saying any one of "Politics is always a power struggle," "Politics is never a power struggle," and "Politics isn't always a power struggle." The problem is that you said the third one, and then gave an example of the first.


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Nakibe » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:15 pm

In a belated answer to Wolfbelly...

Personally I don't talk about politics much because others never seem to want to. Its something I have no problem talking about and occasionally showing my ignorance on, but eh. Most people hate it so much that I just had to wonder why.

As far as activism goes? I live in what's pretty much the Deep South. I generally find it causes less problems in the day-to-day if I keep my opinions to myself half the time. If asked I can tell you EXACTLY what I think about a political action at the time, but as with a lot of things, I don't tend to say much when I'm NOT asked.

As far as fighting for a vague political cause of any sort... I admit also my lack of patience/caring/money for that sort of thing. There are a scant few issues that would make me give more than the usual flying fucks about them. I realize these issues are important, and that something should be done about them, but... in many cases I also realize that I'm not exactly in a position for the best-informed decision. If I cared enough, I'd look, find out, whatever. But I really don't.

But then, personally I find it more telling that I like to hear from both sides of things (Hopefully WITHOUT the stupid-ass mudslinging) and not much else. When I vote I do so with the knowledge I have available, and I TRY to at least learn which candidates are worth voting for and why I might share positions/ideas with them. That's it.




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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Choark » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:22 pm

Really short answer: I just don't have any interest in it. I once tried to get an interest in it but I couldn't follow half of the bigger things said and what I could follow was honestly them just insulting each other and making jokes. Seriously. It was like watching two gangs at school again.

I have no idea if America is the same way but I just couldn't do it. So yeah, just that, doesn't interest me. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby Ganonfro » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:02 am

Oh don't worry Cho, it's like that here too. And I agree with you fully.

Everything you say on a message board is up for debate, especially in something called a "Discussion Forum."

No. All debates are discussions, but not all discussions are debates. There is a reason they're two different words.

I said what I did because I was asked what my opinion is. You can't tell me my opinion is wrong, nor a definition, when I believe in a different definition, that's why I redefined it. I didn't post my entire view because I didn't feel a need to, not that my entire view was that short.

I also agreed to the point that politics are a power struggle. Not everyone is trying to "screw" the other over though. I'm starting to worry about where you live, if you always feel someone is out to fuck you over in any given political moment.

Now if you'll stop attacking my opinion Doc, I'll just add one more thing to this topic, like my girlfriend told me, "Trying to talk about politics is like trying to take a brisk and healthy swim in a pool of mild acid."


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Re: ZOMG POLITICS OHNOES!

Unread postby EKDS5k » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:54 am

Just because I believe that the word "noncommitant" means "brain eating fire ants from outer space" doesn't make it so.

Power struggles aren't always about screwing over someone else. You either increase your own power, or decrease someone else's; you do what's best for you (not just in politics, in any situation). I'm just trying to point out to you that you said "Politics doesn't always have to be a power struggle" and then went on to describe a type of power struggle. Your words, they're up there for everyone to see, I don't know why you keep arguing this with me. It's because I called what you said "dumb," isn't it? It was. Deal with it. Everyone says stupid things from time to time, and everyone I know who's read what you first posted agrees that it was contradictory and didn't really make any sense (and based on your second post, someone offered the suggestion that you're mildly dyslexic--maybe go have some tests done?).

Now for my thoughts about politics:

It seems like the end goal is to do whatever it takes to get re-elected. That is, in the end, votes are the be all and end all of a democratic government. A lot of you seem to at least be implying that most politicians are liars, cheats and snake oil salesemen, who will say anything and stop at nothing to get a few extra votes come election day, and then slack off for all but the last year of their term.

However, I don't think the cause of all this is immoral politicians. I think it's apathetic voters who don't know about the issues, don't care to learn, and certainly don't want to take time out of their lives to try and promote some change (I'm not exempting myself from this, by the way). Somebody in the government fucks up, and by and large, nobody does anything beyond complaining about it. Come voting time, they vote for the Conservative party because that's the way they've always voted, and they really don't care what the Liberals or the NDP are doing. So, politicians resort to mudslinging and name-calling in order to make the other guy look bad, and hopefully sway a few more people to their cause.

I'm of the opinion that it should be about votes. That politicians should do whatever it takes to gain the support of the people they're trying to represent. But I also think people need to get off their asses and learn about what's going on, which parties support what policies, and so on. If the general public truly wanted honest politicians, they'd start voting for them, and the dishonest ones wouldn't be able to get away with the stuff they do.

Sidenote: You say your one letter doesn't count, but it's all in your head. If everyone voiced their opinion, I'm sure you'd find a lot more people who thought the way you did. As it is, half the people feel like what they want doesn't matter, and so do nothing (or worse, vote for the guy with the best hair), which results in horrendously low voter turnouts.

Sidesidenote: Trying to talk about politics is like trying to take a brisk and healthy swim in a pool of mild acid.

This goes back to what Lloyd said about labelling "them" as "evil," and telling yourself it's easier just to not get involved.



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