I thought you should know.

[Kai]

It's a good thread, though I did carefully stay out of it. Seeing as, you know. I've never had an opinion in my life. I wouldn't know what to do with myself. <p>-------------------------
TheGreatNevareh (Virgil): I'm safe, don't worry. His hot pants are what got me interested in this whole scenario.</p>

[Ganonfro]

Mike, thank you for pointing out how horribly misspoken my last post was.

But my point wasn't that the diseases that don't have cures by my logic from the last statement makes them non-diseases. That is completely not true, as Mike pointed out.

I was trying to say that Alcoholism isn't a disease, beacuse to become an alcoholic, you have to DRINK alcohol. There's no arthritis drink that you can have and eventually get arthritis. Cancer is a tricky thing though, since you can get it from numerous sources. And I'm pretty sure the same is for Stroke, Depression, Alzhiemer's Disease, Cardiovascular Disease, or Osteoporosis. Nothing you take that is specifically known for giving the disease and nothing more.

People become dependent on alcohol, because it's a drug, a legal one at that. It is addictive. Not a disease.

To quote Mitch Hedgburg (sp?) "Alcoholism is the only disease you can be yelled at for having. 'Damnit Frank, your an alcoholic!' or 'Damnit Frank, you have lupis!'. One of those doesn't sound right."

[Animala]

On whether or not alcohol is a disease:

I agree that it's an addiction. However, some folks seem to think it's also a disease. I don't blame you for not knowing this, as such information can be difficult to obtain. And there's no particular reason why anyone should find it necessary to even attempt such an endeavour before correcting another person on their statements.

Through various arcane techniques, I have discovered the following:

"Although acceptance of the "American Disease Model" of alcoholism is not entirely universal, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have all classified alcoholism as a disease."

After hours of grueling legwork, I was able to indpendently verify two of these claims.

American Medical Association

"The AMA
1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a legitimate part of medical practice..."

The American Psychiatric Association

"The American Psychiatric Association strongly and unequivocally affirms its position that all substance-related disorders are diagnosable mental illnesses for which effective treatments are readily available."

"With respect to effectiveness of treatments for substance-related disorders, there is a growing body of evidence that confirms both the biological underpinnings of these illnesses as well as the high rates of treatment success"

Crazy, no? I sincerely hope that our medical science has not fallen so far that it disregards the wisdom of the late comedian Mitch Hedberg.

To address the implied personal responsibility alcoholics have for their condtion:

It is a commonly held view that being an alcoholic is morally reprehensible. I have a serious problem with this view. Research has shown that there are certain biological factors that contribute to the risk of alcoholism. Perhaps possessors of this gene take double damage from alcohol attacks (and heaven help them if they are the recipient of a critical booze pour). Regardless of the mechanism, independent of environmental factors, some people are more likely to be dependent on alcohol than others. I think the conclusion from this is obvious.

We aren't shunning enough people.

It seems self-evident to me that if a less susceptible person holds drinking habits that might develop a dependency in a more susceptible person, he is willfully and recklessly endangering his health as much as someone who actually became an alcoholic following the same drinking habits. Why should a chance genetic factor provide immunity from our scorn?

-Koss <p>

---

to make the pain go away
i cut the universe
with ribbons
because that make perfect sense.</p>

[PriamNevhausten]

I'm not sure how much sympathy I can have for alcoholics, though a disease it may indeed be. I mean, there are people who are also predisposed to being irresponsible with financial matters, as well, or with keeping promises, or any number of things. Are those also diseases? They can harm and endanger life, and blah blah this part of my topic is uninteresting.

Where does personal responsibility stop? At what point is it expected that a person be able to say 'enough?' Where is the line, on the other side of which we tell people that their own conscious actions are not their fault? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Ganonfro]

Well said Koss. I don't really have anything to rebuke with, since you didn't really leave anything that left me to question. It just saddens/angers me to know that people claim it's a disease when you can only get it when you drink alcohol.

Priam, that's the thing I get angry about. You can't put a set limit for when people stop existing and the alcohol takes over. For them to do anything under the influence, they are already predisposed to do it in some way, I'd think, how else could they think to do it? Then again, I don't know how almost anyone else thinks, so speculation fills up much of these ideas I put out on this subject.

[PriamNevhausten]

If drinking alcohol is the only way to get the disease alcoholism, then does that mean alcohol is...infected? Contaminated? A pathogen?

All these terms seem appropriate, and thus make me laugh.

On the other hand, it seems that genetics is the other half of the disease. So certain people are pathogens, as well.

This also makes me chuckle, even if it's not terribly accurate. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Archmage144]

Alcoholism is, medically speaking, somewhat like depression. It's clear that there's a biological factor to it, but there are a lot of confounding environmental factors that make it occasionally difficult to isolate variables.

I would say more here if I didn't have to leave for work two minutes ago! <p>

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<div style="text-align:center"></div>

</p>

[pd Rydia]

"I mean, there are people who are also predisposed to being irresponsible with financial matters, as well, or with keeping promises, or any number of things. Are those also diseases?"

To my knowledge, there hasn't been any proof that these are biological predispositions. My parents are shit with money, but I don't need to learn that from them. However, substance abuse runs far, far back in the family history; the only way to avoid it is to not use it. At all.


"Where does personal responsibility stop? At what point is it expected that a person be able to say 'enough?' Where is the line, on the other side of which we tell people that their own conscious actions are not their fault?"

At what point can you tell me that I'm the one cutting, or that my depression is in control? I've had people accusing me of being on one side of the line or the other all my life, when really, most people have no bloody idea. Best for others to keep their mouths shut, and let professionals do their job. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center">dictionary.com | encyclopædia dramatica</div></p>

[PriamNevhausten]

What *is* their job, in this case, though?

As has been stated before, nothing in here is likely to affect anything at all, ever, but the point remains that responsibility is an important thing for someone to establish at some point. In the ethical sense, and thusly in the legal sense.

Ugh. I'm so tired of discussing blame and responsibility and fault. I'm about ready to say that it's everyone's fault that everything happens, ever, and just be done with it. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Besyanteo]

I blame the Gypsies.

And possibly Redskull.

[pd Rydia]

"What *is* their job, in this case, though?"

The job of whom? The professionals? To acquire knowledge and experience in order to best help the person who's got whatever problem, and to do so. You find out what the problem is, come to grips with it, find out how to cope, and figure out where that line* is. Not necessarily in that order, depending on the person.


*The line of responsibility. As you mentioned, it is important for someone to figure that out--but typically, it won't be your problem. If someone makes it your problem, you may need to distance yourself from that person, or cut them out of your life.

Funny, I find that others like to make it their problem, however--because of course, someone can't/won't ever do that for themselves. Thing is, the afflicted is the only person who'll ever be able to find out where the line is. And, generally speaking, the people who feel like they need to solve everyone's problems are the least fit to be helping someone through their issues.

"Ugh. I'm so tired of discussing blame and responsibility and fault. I'm about ready to say that it's everyone's fault that everything happens, ever, and just be done with it."

Why is it your problem? Do you absolutely need to find someone to blame in the instance that you find an alcoholic? Bes has got a good idea. That Redskull is up to something. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center">dictionary.com | encyclopædia dramatica</div></p>

[PriamNevhausten]

It is my problem because it is so basic to my personality to find solutions to problems, to recreate systems to better achieve an ideal universal output, that I must at least try to critically analyze, take apart, and possibly put back together any given interactional subset, in an effort to know how to improve it by any means, feasible or otherwise.

.....what were we talking about, again? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=priamnevhausten>PriamNevhausten</A]&nbsp; at: 8/9/05 3:56

[Besyanteo]

Alcoholism, Drunk Drivers and other such types in various countries, stuff that won't see mention here, and intravaginal devices that lock onto your cock when you get busy with the woman wearing it. Intended to prevent/deter rape, but also great for those passive agressive ladies that decide you've wronged them! =D

Take James's wife Norma for example: She's a controlling bitch, and seems to think that any girl James ever looks at or talks to that's even REMOTELY close to his age group (18-30) is obviously fucking him behind her back. She has gotten very angry at him because he laughed at the joke of a girl once. I don't imagine it would be a streach, should these devices be sold, that she would purchase one as punishment for some perceived crime.

You know, before or after she finally stops taking her ring off, throwing at him, and then laughing mischeviously, as though she'd just told some dirty joke.

Bleh. That wasn't supposed to turn into a rant/story. o.o; Oh well.

[Archmage144]

I think an amusing side note to all this that's actually on-topic is that it gives women a chance to upgrade to that +3 vorpal vagina they've always wanted. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center"></div>

</p>

[Besyanteo]

... What can I say?

Brian wins.

[Kai]

I was hoping you'd mention that, Brian. <p>-------------------------
TheGreatNevareh (Virgil): I'm safe, don't worry. His hot pants are what got me interested in this whole scenario.</p>

[FF Fanatic 80]

This seems a good a place as any to bring this up.

[url=http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10739.phtml]
Is THIS where you got said Vorpal Vagina +3 Brian, HUH?! =[[/url]

[Wolfbelly]

What the fuck? You guys are talking about bears, alcoholism and then having a gaye-olde love in. How many posts in this 7 page long thread were ACTUALLY on topic regarding the rape-prevention/female-empowerment hook thing?

Anyway, here's the problem I see with it. It's a neat idea, and yeah, it's a good way to give the rapist some of what he has coming for him. However, it's not as though the hooks can discriminate between penis and finger, or maybe even penis and lead pipe. So, all a rapist needs to do to avoid this is get ANYTHING into the vagina and the dick-trap is rendered useless. And once he knows that this "bitch" (see it from their perspective) tried to fuck up his pleasure tool, he'll be right pissed off and she'll be fucked.

Also, this isn't a device that prevents rape. It's horrible in the sense that it only activates when the person is in the process of getting raped. Now, I'm not too familiar with rape, but I think the general understanding is that when the guy is sticking his dick into the lady, she's already suffered a fair bit of trauma/punishment/violence. This device does NOTHING to prevent that. It's merely a placebo to make women feel empowered. And while female empowerment IS a good thing, I'd rather they be fully empowered and not have to think "Oh I hope someone tries to rape me today! I'll have such a nasty surprise for them!"

You want to empower women? Fund a program that teaches free self-defense courses. Teach women how to avoid getting into the situation where they're going to become targeted by rapists. Teach them how to get out of it. Don't flash around something that needs them to become a victim and say it empowers them. That's blatantly illogical.

Neat idea though.

Edit: Why the FUCK is this in unspoken? Kicking it into discussion. <p></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wolfbelly>Wolfbelly</A] at: 8/28/05 0:43

[PriamNevhausten]

Lloyd is my new hero for the next couple of hours. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Wolfbelly]

Love that hero worship.

Your avatar needs to put away his penis. ~Archmage

I much prefer it when you put it away for me. :wink

It actually doesn't offend me at all, but I thought it'd be humourous to censor you this time! ~Archmage <p></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=archmage144>Archmage144</A]&nbsp; at: 8/28/05 12:52