Dear Catholics and/or Christians

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Nekogami
 
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Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:30 pm

I'm not trying to be cute but I'd like to know why animosity towards magic, fantasy novels, etc. continues to exist. Just curious what faith leaders are saying about it.

My question arises from the news that the new pope does not like Harry Potter. I fail to see the harm to any faith that reading fantasy novels show.

Thanks. <p> Kokoro wa (Hashiru!) ano sora no shita...There's no problem that cannot be solved by the scientific application of high explosives.-Bob the Sane,Lone System Admin of the Apocalypse</p>

Choark
 

Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Choark » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:26 pm

It has witches in it. Witches are bad. They get there unnatural, heathen powers not from God but from the fallen one, the beast of the pit. Same for wizards, or as the dark ones secretly call themselves, Warlocks, teller of falsehoods and wielder of supernatural powers not coming from the world of man or the love of the One True god.

Or basically: Magic is bad. Magic come from evil sources or God would of given us all the power... plus... you know... people tend to worship H.P. like a false idol... thats always bad.

...

... Someone else will answer the question properly no doubt. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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..

Unread postby Dee » Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:14 pm

Actually, I think Cho answered it as well as they would for you.


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Besyanteo
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Re: ..

Unread postby Besyanteo » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:05 pm

Actually, it goes beyond that. if that were all it was, people would hail LotR as the DEVIL.

Christian's biggest problem with HP is that it's a story about teaching little kids to do magic, teaching them that muggles (people without magics) are generally foolish and angry people, and most especially Harry's Aunt and Uncle. You notice how they're supposed to be 'normal', and this 'normallness' is referenced as nauseum just before they do something bastardish to Harry?

It's not intended that way I think, but it can be construed as being a way to indoctrinate kids against Christ, or even just normal people. I read it anyway because it's entertaining.

Also keep in mind that you're listening to only the most vocal, activist christians out there. The people who don't care and have some dignity are at home, being quiet and leaving you alone. Worshipping and practicing without attacking a small children's book. We're still people too dammit. :{

Other fantasy novels... Take them on a case by case basis. There was a big stink about DnD a while back, because some idiots who happened to also be extremely deviant played it. I don't hear it much anymore, really. Much like I don't hear about Chick Tracts except when someone here links it.

Magic itself... It's rooted in our faith. It's a force outside of God's influence that has some supernatural hold on the universe. The bible pretty much says God's the only one with that kind of power. I'm not sure if magic is specifically referenced as being evil, but being connected to 'pagans' puts it in a bad light as well. (Does anyone say 'Pagans' anymore? I haven't heard it since I was 12.) Again, the most vocal, hardcore people are the ones you're hearing from. It's the same thing as judging Wicca by people who write in livejournals that they're reincarnations of witches 'persecuted in Salem for casting their dark powers and flying in the night'.

In summation: Yeah, some of us are idiots. Please don't judge all of us by some of us. It makes me cry. ;-; See?


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Re: ..

Unread postby KingOfDoma » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:18 pm

I could not have said it better. And might I point out that in terms of Harry Potter, there are those in our faith (and THESE ones aren't small in number) who praise Harry Potter for its messages of friendship, unity, and good triumphing over evil. <p>--------------------
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Re: ..

Unread postby Ganonfro » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:29 pm

I, being Catholic, don't rightly give a flying fuck what the pope says most of the time. Why? Because he's a rich pompous bastard who lives in Vatican City, which he runs. He knows no poverty, he knows no strife. What struggle could he really relate to the common folk anymore? His word is more like a politician than a man of faith.

As regarding Harry Potter, I've read them all, own the first two movies, highly await the fouth coming out in November, and will likely buy the book shortly after it comes out, instead of stealing it online. Not because I abhore stealing, but because it's hard to read off my monitor, at least with books.

Ok, now that that's covered. Yes, most of what Cho said pretty much covers any theological reason why nay-sayers have a beef with it. I honestly don't see what they can complain about, since many of Christ's miracles are magical, and yet they certainly have an easy time accepting them. I mean, who's to say that the magic in HP doesn't come from the same place, in the end? If they read the books, they'll probably realize that they're stories, about childhood adversity, standing up for yourself, and becoming a better person. Huh, such horrible stories with such good morals? Preposterous! As to the muggle part, that's more a show of the corruptness of society, where straying from the norm means your to be shunned and disowned, at least from how I've read it.

If I listened to the church, instead of listening to the meanings in the stories the church preaches, I'd be one morally biggoted person. Which is completely the opposite of what the stories teach. But then again, that's less what the "church" says, and more dependent on the priest/pastor/preacher/whatever church leader is saying.

Just have some sense about you, be it common or not, and don't get overtly righteous about what someone says, pope or someone else. No one likes someone who can't think for themselves.


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Re: ..

Unread postby FlamingDeth » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:53 pm

Mr Fro may be slightly biased in the matter, seeing as he is, in fact, Harry Potter. <p>
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NebulaQueen
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Re: ..

Unread postby NebulaQueen » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:00 pm

As for the Catholic Church specifically and fantasy, I haven't heard them raise too much of a stink. In fact...

1) Tolkein himself was a Catholic.

2) I remember hearing a few years ago that John Paul the II actually approved of the HP books. I'm not sure if that's true or if it's just hearsay, though. Can anyone confirm this?

Now, as for animosity towards magic in general (not just Catholicism, but Protestant sects as well), It's like this: Magic is something that tends to involve powers other than God. Such as demons and spirits and false gods*. And dealing with them is a bad and blasphemous thing. There are also verses in the Old Testament against the practice of magic**, and Revelations speaks out against it as well***. These are often used as Biblical proof against magic.

---

*<span style="font-size:x-small;">While this leaves out details on Christian and Jewish mysticism, this is a tangent doesn't have much to do with the question at hand.</span>

**<span style="font-size:x-small;">According to some, though, the original text only spoke out against certain types of magic. More information can be found
here and here.</span>

***<span style="font-size:x-small;">Here's a link for more information.</span> <p>

"My naturally quivering state makes any display of fear deliciously arbitrary" - Manowar Leader, Scary-Go-Round</p>Edited by: NebulaQueen at: 7/14/05 23:02

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Animala
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Re: ..

Unread postby Animala » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:23 pm

*rumbles into the thread*

While we're giving out links, how about taking a look at the actual source of these statements?
This article contains the full text of the letters referenced.
Let's take a look at what's actually being said.

Quote:
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Vatican City
March 7, 2003


Esteemed and dear Ms. Kuby!

Many thanks for your kind letter of February 20th and the informative book which you sent me in the same mail. It is good, that you enlighten people about Harry Potter, because those are subtle seductions, which act unnoticed and by this deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly.

I would like to suggest that you write to Mr. Peter Fleedwood, (Pontifical Council of Culture, Piazza S. Calisto 16, I00153 Rome) directly and to send him your book.

Sincere Greetings and Blessings,

+ Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger


Note that this letter is from Cardinal Ratzinger, in early 2003. He was not the Pope at this time. Furthermore, note that this was a personal correspondence with an author of a book criticizing Harry Potter.

I'm not claiming that Cardinal Ratzinger is a different person from Pope Benedict, but the personal opinion of a cardinal is a far cry from Catholic doctrine.

Heck, the personal opinion of the Pope is a far cry from Catholic doctrine.

I don't entirely disagree with the statement made in the letter. The problem with the magic of Harry Potter is that it's supernatural power granted by no one in particular which may be used however the wielder wishes. According to the belief system I was raised with (not entirely sure that it's official doctrine), morally neutral supernatural power does not exist. Power is either granted by God or offered by icky things. It isn't too much of a logical leap to suggest that the only entities offering anything that resembles morally neutral supernatural power would be icky things.

(On a personal note, I'm not particularly convinced that evil sorcerous powers exist at all. If they don't, then attempting to call on them would be foolish, but relatively harmless. But if they do...)

And these issues, if they truly act unnoticed, as the Cardinal points out, could indeed distort a forming conscience or world view. If dealt with responsibly (and many children are quite capable of discerning reality from fantasy), I don't see it as a problem.

(edit)The article also includes an answer to Neb's question 2. And the Cardinal did, in his second letter, give permission for his judgement to be passed on, so it's not entirely a personal correspondence. All the same, I don't believe he's said anything about it while wearing his awesome pope hat(/edit) <p>
to make the pain go away
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because that make perfect sense.</p>Edited by: White Knight Delta&nbsp; Image at: 7/14/05 23:28

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PriamNevhausten
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Re: ..

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:39 pm

Incidental note: I'd heard a while back that, actually, according to Catholic doctrine "The One True God" is the name for an entity besides the God we usually reference, in some sort of nomenclatory deception. Rather, "The Great I-Am" is a proper name for God. This part is hearsay, mind you, because I can't stand reading most religious texts (or most philosophical texts, mind you) due to their long-windedness and penchant for metaphor.

As far as the Potter business goes, bear in mind also that the Cardinal-at-the-time may have been, to some extent, telling this anti-Potter author what she wanted to hear. This, considering the rest of the argument, is unlikely but possible.

Personally, I question the idea of 'supernatural' powers at all. But that gets into morphology and philosophy a bit much for this thread. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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pd Rydia
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby pd Rydia » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:55 am

That Dee is not me.

The new pope doesn't impress me. I'm sure glad I'm not Catholic, because the whole point of being Catholic as opposed to, say, Lutheran, is acknowledging the Pope's position.

I'll note that many Catholics--particularly Americans--don't give a rat's ass about the pope if it's not convenient to them. What is religion if not convenient?



Also, I'mma quote this again.

From Huston Smith's "World's Religions":
The concept of the Church as Teaching Authority begins with the premise that God came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ to teach people how to live in this world so as to inherit eternal life. If this is true, it is important that his teachings continue in the world. The Gospels do not suffice for this purpose because they contain ambiguities. Bible studies, individually pursues, does not resolve these ambiguities because individuals come up with different interpretations. Is divorce permissible? Was Christ born of a virgin? Did his body ascend after death? Is the fourth Gospel authentic? Withou a sure court of appel, moral and theological disintegration seem inevitable. It is to avert such disintegration that the Church stans as the "supreme court," so to speak, to adjudicate between truth and error on important matters.

This idea of the church as Teaching Authority leads in the end to the doctrine of papal infallibility. [...] The earthly head of the Church is the Pope, succssor to St. Pete in the bishopric of Rome. The doctrine of papal infallibility asserts that when the Pope speaks officially on matters of faith and morals, God protects him from error.

This doctrine is so often misunderstood that it must be emphasized that infallibility is a strictly limited gift. It does not assert that the Pope is endowed with extraordinary intelligence. It does not mean that God helps him to know the answer to every conceivable question. Emphatically it does not mean that Catholics have to accept the Pope's view on politics. The Pope can make mistakes. He can fall into sin. The scientific or historical opinions he holds may be mistaken. He may write books that contain errors. Only in two limited spheres, faith and morals, is he infallible, and in these only when he has consulted widely and speaks officially as the supreme legislator of the Church, defining doctrines that should be held by all its members.
That is, basically, what Mike said. The pope can be a total retard anytime he's not speaking officially on behalf of the church, and specifically on faith and morals (not on say, sports, or politics). Also, popes can fall into sin, which would seem obvious (*cough cough history*).

So when people are digging up stuff he said before he even became a pope, that only says to me that...I want to smack him (and the reporter). Much the same as I'd want to smack most people who say things like "homosexuality is a psychological and moral illness." Which, similar to this incident, was said long before he was poped.

Anyhow.

If you'd like to know why the pope thinks the way he does, research him. Look at the things he's said, what he's gone through, whatever. Try to avoid relying entirely on the latest post-election hype which is attempting to dig up old shit just to stir up drama. I attribute the vast majority of it all to the fact he's old, old, old, and uberconservative. <p>
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Nekogami » Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:00 pm

I wasn't aware the bible mentioned magic. Hm, interesting indeed.

And Pagan is still used, Jason, especially among pagans. It's not such a derogatory term to some of us, or so I have gathered.

Interesting to hear other folks' views on the pope. After Pope John Paul II died I must say I was rather wierded out but some of the reactions I viewed at least on television. I might be off mark but even I know the Bible says not to worship a false god/idol but it sure looked as though people were doing that to some extent. It made me concerned, not for corruptions sake though that's certainly a very real threat when dealing with any centralized organization, but simply because it seemed as though those people were putting themselves at risk... But why should I care, in retrospect.Image

So anyway... what I'm reading is that magic is out of the jurisdiction of God in some respects. And I guess I'm going into theology here but clarification is always good, it sounds like magic is the 'boulder too big for god to lift'. That is to say, I wasn't aware that anything (save for Hell) was out of God's jurisdiction. So... I'm confused again. <p> Kokoro wa (Hashiru!) ano sora no shita...There's no problem that cannot be solved by the scientific application of high explosives.-Bob the Sane,Lone System Admin of the Apocalypse</p>

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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:14 pm

Well, it's not that this "magic", should it exist, is outside of God's jurisdiction, more than he just doesn't like us having more power than biologically granted to us, it seems to be depicted. Additionally, the means used seem to often be portrayed as demonic in nature.

This is part of one of the main issues I have with Christianity. While it is true that some things are absolutes, the way it speaks and is taught brings the distinct impression that there are only two absolutes; there ARE no morally "neutral" things and there ARE no shades of gray. Either one is for, or one is against this ominpotent being, and in such a scenario, such absolutes are irritating to me, to be honest.

In a sense, Christianity embraces the ideas of self-sacrifice and dependency on a being you can not truly sense. Denominations may argue regarding the true nature and extent of both sacrifice and dependency, as well as any additional rites involved, but it is still there nonetheless. Admittedly, I have a bias against such because of the upbringing I went through--5 years of evangelical school is quite bad indeed. Nonetheless, it goes against my desire for independence, and is thus a reason why I don't accept it.

Now, as for the people who preach it, they tend to be the most extreme, yes, and in the process, also seem to get details quite wrong at times. The two huge things that they tend to get wrong tend to be what ends up turning people off to the religion in the first place. First is the general patronizing attitude. The overall assumption that "unrepenting heathens" have no damn idea about anything, no brain at all, and most of all, the inability to distinguish fact from fiction, leads to an attitude that turns people off of it anyway. Secondly seems to be a trend that, as they are "saved", they believe that they are always right, no matter what. This, again, puts people off a lot of the time. No matter what, what people think of a religion will usually, more often than not, be determined by the worst.

All in all, though, the simple thing that can be most irritating to me about it, is what it believes humanity's purpose is--simply to glorify and worship God. Personally, I disagree with that, but that's just me and why I disagree with the beliefs of the religion.

...Eh. I know I went on a tangent, but I guess that can be expected from me. <p>ChibiUrusai: *chomps* I am underage. ^-^
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby The Great Nevareh » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:27 pm

As a non-Catholic and non-Christian, I can only add a hemi-logical point of view to this entire gamut of discourse on anti-thaumaturgical discourse.

Before I start anything, I'm going to opt to mention that Christianity as a whole confuses the hell out of me. Judaism at least has the sense to be plainly ludicrous and stupid (I love my religion) and at least makes no sense because it doesn't make any sense (The rub of Judaism: You guys rock! Now be good or I kill you). However, every form of Christianity that I know anything about is highly ambiguous about a lot of things. Most of the "Leaders" and "Fundamentalists" that I've had the opportunity to hear sound like they haven't actually read the New Testament, or if they have they avoided all the parts about love and peace and compassion and the fact that Jesus didn't actually say a whole lot of the crap that ended up being indoctrinated into the religion itself. In my opinion, Jesus was pretty darn cool. Just... not divine. But that's because I'm not Christian. The Trinity confuses me because it's apparently a big deal and I don't quite see why. I don't understand how G-d can both be omnipotent and have limits to His power. I can't really see why G-d should be at odds with demons or sprites or fairies or anything in particular that we call "supernatural" since G-d is omnipotent and omniscient and thus any demons, sprites, fairies, and whatnot would be absolutely nothing compared to G-d in every way, shape, or form. If G-d dislikes these fairies, spires, and demons, then G-d could have just not created them. But if they DO exist, and all existence stems from G-d, then they're SUPPOSED to be there. So what's the hubbub? Anyway, Christianity confuses the hell out of me. It has ever since I knew enough about it to make heads or tails of it and it will likely continue to confuse me because it's full of contradictions that in turn cannot be contradictions because like everything else in the religion it is by definition perfect.

About Magic: I don't understand how it's possible for G-d to get angry about us exceeding our set boundaries because G-d set those boundaries and since G-d is omnipotent those boundaries could only be exceeded if G-d MADE it so. Then again, I don't understand how it's possible for G-d to get angry, or be happy, or do any number of things that humans do as part of a routine since G-d is by definition not man, though man is made in G-d's image. Unless man has the power to overcome G-d and all of G-d's works, then G-d wouldn't have set up boundaries like that and then expected no one to cross them. Of course, I being a person who believes in Freedom of Conscience as opposed to Free Will when forced to pick (though Free Will has won the day since the only Puritans you find today are the Pennsylvania Dutch and the Quakers. There are likely many others, but the gist is that Free Will won the race) see everything theologically as part of G-d's plan and no being actually acts with a speck or mote of will that G-d did not predispose to happen. An omnipotent being can't HELP but control everything since they wield all powers and possess all perfections. Thus from a theological view, I don't really get how people could consider Magic to be evil without ignoring some fundamental truths of both the Old and New testament.

Then again, I think the whole idea of raising a hue and cry over anything this mild is a complete waste of media resources that could instead be spent trying to convert people. I think the entire debate about it is really dumb and thus I link the religion with its more outspoken representatives and those outspoken representatives with frivolities that don't accomplish anything aside from raise animosity between them and the people they're trying to educate.

My summation: It's silly and they should all be locked up in a resort somewhere that serves nothing that isn't laced with valium and lithium. While we're at it, we can redirect the ridiculous resources we're giving to the entertainment industry and do something like completely eliminate poverty and hunger. I'd be willing to spend a year with no new movies, video games, or television shows if it meant that there would no longer be poverty in the United States. <p>[---------------------------]
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Besyanteo
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Besyanteo » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:11 pm

Mmmm... Lithium. *munch*


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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:20 pm

Nev: I'm pretty sure you don't have to censor the word "God". Even in relation to Christianity. <p>ChibiUrusai: *chomps* I am underage. ^-^
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Magnus de Silentio » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:16 am

(If I can survive in a thread on a topic as sensitive as this, I can make it anywhere!)

I've always found these complaints odd, and not because I think concerns over magic are stupid. I have yet to see any magic, and I doubt very strongly that it exists. But if I believed it existed, I would want it to be taken very seriously. From the perspective of someone who thinks anybody's going to be casting any spells, it's a legitimate concern.

Of course, from my perspective, the question is ludicrous to begin with. But I am a dirty deist/pseudo-christian/humanist! We are allowed to disagree, and should in fact expect it.

What gets me is what this says about how these people view art. It is a pretty interesting viewpoint to me, as a writer. I write about fairly awful things with regularity. My novel in progress is rife with rape, prostitution, murder, suicide, drugs, and the eating of animals who used to be people's wives/children. I am aiming the novel at what I consider a fairly uplifting conclusion, but I have to imagine the pope would not like my book! Because their view seems to be that the role of art is solely to promote very specific, very-theirs viewpoints.

I think that is of course complete balderdash, but defining the function of art is tricky, so as long as they aren't seeking to censor me, I don't care.

But really, that does seem to be the basic assumption: Fiction is here to promote my view of the universe, or at the very least, not contradict it.

I think that philosphy necessarily leads to a pretty miserable art world.

(My view on the function of art, incidentally, is that it makes life bearable by being beautiful and ugly and interesting and intense, and that it helps us understand people who think differently from us better.)


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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:24 am

It seems to me, in my deep pragmatism, that Christianity, as most religions do, has tenets which discourage or demonize things which are, by and large, unpleasant to the human condition. Injury, death, dead things, exploitation, that sort of thing. This is a fairly reasonable conclusion for a religon to arrive at, particularly one involving a caring deity--if God/Buddha/Eisner created humans, and humans revile such things, it only makes sense that said things are bad in some sort of inherent way.

Now, take a look at the things that witchcraft has classically done and involved. Even the more recent rendition of this old song and dance, Wicca, has some pretty questionable stuff. Like, the skyclad coven of thirteen? Goats' blood? Semen? Sex as *worship*? Some of this stuff really twists around the idea of moral conduct to the point where things many consider wrong as a matter of course instead become dispassionate ritual, removed from the human impulse--the gag reflex, if you will.

So if what these people are doing in the name of their views is sinful/bad/unamerican, doesn't it follow that their views themselves are also sinful/bad/communist? Maybe not, when you think logically, but it sounds correct enough for the People to believe and follow along. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

Magnus de Silentio
 

Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Magnus de Silentio » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:45 am

Well, I'm not even saying that you're wrong to say that witchcraft might be wrong. It is, again, a judgment everybody is going to have to make for themselves.

Although I do question what's wrong with sex as worship. Sex is pretty awesome. If the clunky poetry that tends to serve as a hymn is good enough for the job, I would hope a really good rounf of sex could be a legitimate religious experience.

At any rate! The main problem with that argument -- bad things happening as the result of a belief system means the belief system is probably bad -- is that it cuts against every belief system you can think of. Just as you can find a bunch of crazy pagans who have done all sorts of awful things, those of the Christian persuasion have a hell of a lot of atrocities in their past, and present. Of course, if you're willing to accept that every human belief system will ultimately be deeply flawed by reason of our fundamental shortcomings, that's just fine. But in any case, it doesn't make much of a rationale for cutting certain perspectives out of the culture. Rather, it turns out to be a more sophisticated way of saying "I know for a fact that my way is best."

Regardless -- and I'm not clear that you were responding to me, but in any case it's a point that could use refinement and clarification -- I'm not getting at the question of whether or not these things are wrong. I feel a lot of things that happen in art are wrong. The key being that a lot of things that happen in real life are wrong, and we know well from the creative efforts of the very would-be censors we are discussing that art becomes totally irrelevant to the human condition when it is divorced from it to that extent. Not to mention that one person's wrong is often another person's right, and since we all have to live together, we might as well get a sense of perspective on how we all collectively feel about such things.

Edit: Semen is immoral?

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=magnusdesilentio@rpgww60462>Magnus] at: 7/17/05 2:48

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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby The Great Nevareh » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:18 am

Considering religions for the longest time considered sex to be sacred, I find it odd that you should thus claim that they're inherently repugnant to sane, morally able humans.

I don't think there have ever been incredible atrocities done in the name of Buddhism. Feel free to call me on that, though.

As for the censoring of G-d, it has to do with my religion. Unless every copy of this thread, ever, is going to be printed, blessed, and buried with the ceremony for the burial of books containing the divine name, it is religiously disallowed for me (well, technically everyone, but since not everyone does the same religious tango that I do it's a moot point) to thus put the divine name into direct, vulgar use in this form. There are other interpretations, but as I have no proof that every computer screen these messages appear on will someday be buried in their current form as opposed to burned, thrown into a trash compactor, or recycled, then this is the interpretation I'm sticking to.

And yes, Semen is immoral. You know this because the gheys like it so much and the gheys, along with 13-year old boys, 16-year-old girls, and twinks (who are a completely separate group from the gheys) are the root of all things bad and wrong on the internet. <p>[---------------------------]
"There is great disorder under Heaven, and the situation is excellent."
-Mao Tse-Tung

"I eat the talking bees because I am George Washington Christ"
-From "Bob the Ball"</p>

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PriamNevhausten
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:54 am

You can see this much in a lot of people's values. Semen is often considered dirty, dangerous, 'icky'...et cetera. Sex, too, is dangerous...it can bring people together, true, but it can also throw them apart like no other. It is something that people almost always have kept hidden, particularly from children. This can be mistaken for and/or substituted with guilt and/or regret, and/or a bunch of other things.

In any case, it's something that's not to be treated so lightly as to be done higgledy-piggledy outside of marriage, by the outlook of quite a few religions. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby The Great Nevareh » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:42 pm

All the newer religions, at least. You know, the ones who wanted to be the sole conduits to salvation and enlightenment and not the ones where sex was considered a holy act that resulted in the miracle of children. <p>[---------------------------]
"There is great disorder under Heaven, and the situation is excellent."
-Mao Tse-Tung

"I eat the talking bees because I am George Washington Christ"
-From "Bob the Ball"</p>

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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:48 pm

Indeed. I wonder where Shaolin philosophy has that little cranny for women, actually. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:30 am

I never did link [url=http://rinkworks.com/bookaminute/b/rowling.stone.shtml>this[/url]]<span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Archmage144 » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:00 pm

I think that all fantasy novels and literature are the devil. So is any form of magic, video games that involve slaying supernatural beings, and roleplaying.

In all seriousness, a good number of Christians/Catholics honestly don't care about the whole issue--the ones that do, typically speaking, do so out of some sort of guilt or fear reflex, as far as I can discern. While I'm a bit more inclined to lean toward ideas of moral relativism or "grey areas" than some of the other people in this thread, I think that most of the people I spend my time with would come to a very similar conclusion on this subject.

Fantasy is called fantasy for a reason. It isn't real. And by that logic, it certainly can't hurt anyone to pretend it is for a while.

This leaves out the assumption that magic is a real force and the idea that humans can bend the laws of the natural world by ritual or willpower. My standpoint on that is purely scientific--so far, I've never seen anyone do it, and it's a difficult thing to accept without proof. On the other hand, if someone did, say, conjure up a fireball before my eyes, I would be forced to investigate the matter. In short, just because I don't currently think that real people can do magic doesn't mean that I'm not open to being disproven.

That divergence may have been slightly off-topic, but it was tangentially related. Whatever.

Anyway, I can see the passages where "devout" believers might be able to pull out snippets about how magic and fantasy and whatnot are evil and forbidden. The unfortunate fact is that a lot of these same people are very selective about which passages they've decided to pay attention to in the first place (and that point has already been mentioned). I'm inclined to think that there's a certain degree of politics in the whole situation, but that's a fact inherent to any institution and is most likely obvious to anyone reading this thread. If you really want my opinion on that subject, not that I haven't likely shared it before, feel free to ask.

I have faith that God, being omnipotent and infinite, is mature enough not to condemn me to burn for playing Dungeons and Dragons. <p>
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby The Great Nevareh » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:13 pm

You just don't remember anyone conjuring up a fireball out of nothing because you and everyone around you clearly know and understand that that can't happen, and thus the fireball didn't happen and the mage incurred some points of paradox. <p>[---------------------------]
"There is great disorder under Heaven, and the situation is excellent."
-Mao Tse-Tung

"I eat the talking bees because I am George Washington Christ"
-From "Bob the Ball"</p>

Archmage144
 

Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Archmage144 » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:09 pm

Damnable consensual reality! <p>
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Re: Dear Catholics and/or Christians

Unread postby Magnus de Silentio » Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:53 pm

Quote:
I think that most of the people I spend my time with would come to a very similar conclusion on this subject.


Yes.


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This is code for "Yes, I agree".

Unread postby FlamingDeth » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:59 pm

Brian needs to stop going into random threads and spouting off rationality, or else we're never going to have a good flame war. Jeeze, what was he thinking? <p>
<hr width="50%"><center><span style="font-family:comic sans ms; font-size:x-large;">AVAST!</span></center></p>

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Re: This is code for "Yes, I agree".

Unread postby BrainWalker » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:57 pm

Damnit, you all already addressed the issue and didn't leave anything for me to say. Bastards!

Well, I guess I'll just outline several points that I agree with, and would have brought up had they not already been brought up.

1) Fantasy is fantasy. It's not real. The only potential problems, really, should come from those who cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality.

2) Most religious followers who have a problem with things like magic and fantasy have these problems mostly because they present sources of great power which are completely removed from divine influence. The bible tells many stories of fantastic feats, but the power always came from God. The main crux of religion is that human beings are fallible creatures, and we should look to the one to which we owe our existence for strength and guidance. This leads into my next point...

3) If God is omnipotent, omiscient, and the divine creator of everything, then who is to say that such power does not come from God, directly or indirectly? God created man, and therefore has dictated what we are and are not capable of doing. Clearly men are capable of performing supernatural feats, as it is written in the bible; but over time, events of the past fade into history and people forget little things like the name of the guy who fired the first shot, or what we used to talk to people with before the telephone. I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that "magicians" have forgotten the specifics about the relationship between God and magic. People are forgetful and live short lives, and God doesn't tend to speak up or intervene directly most of the time. It seems to be tradition that most magical sourcebooks are written in dead tongues, and it doesn't seem like anyone really has a perfect understanding of magic. Whenever the source of power is explained it's almost always something nebulous like "aether" or "mana" or "the plane of magic" or something. And, of course, all of those things would be things that were created by God, if God created everything.

Of note: Converseley, whenever someone's doing something evil, the source of power is almost always clearly defined as deomonic, or at least unsavory, in origin. Still, it doesn't seem like Hell actually has much power, biblically speaking. Not in the mortal realm, anyway. At most, it sends demons to posess people, or give them nightmares or something. Even Satan himself is mostly just a smooth talker with high charisma who's really damn good at convincing people to do things they probably shouldn't. Of course, I'm no theologan, so I could have missed something.

4) Then again, just because something is created by God doesn't mean it is intended for human use. Addressing Amanda's confusion about maic being "out of God's jurisdiction," part of the problem I imagine some Christians have is that magic is very much the realm of God, and to practice it is to attempt to approach or perhaps even ascend to that realm. This actually happens with fantasy villians from time to time. I can certainly see why that might ruffle some feathers.

5) On the grand scale, arguing about something like Harry Potter being a threat to Christian teachings is pretty stupid. God has more important things to worry about than wether or not muggles are earnestly disdained by magicians, or wether little Billy is going to try to summon a demon to beat up the kid that stole his lunch money yesterday after reading one of the novels, which I think we can all agree is fairly unlikely. If his son is any indication, I think God's a cool enough guy to not scentence me to eternal damnation in the firey pits of Hell for playing Disgaea or reading Lord of the Rings, or even roleplaying Unknown Armies, which I'm sure Priam would be willing to explain to anyone who cares.

And finally... I miss John Paul II. That guy was cool :(

I forgot some stuff I was gonna say 'cause I got distracted, but that's okay. This post is already pretty long and pointless. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>


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