LIES. LIES AND DECEIT!!

[PriamNevhausten]

A lot of sources tell people that it is 'bad' to lie. Many of us have been taught from a very young age that a lie, no matter how slight, is simply and utterly wrong. Even the Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Lie." We all do it anyway.

Consider, then. Is it possible or ethical to lead a life completely free of deceit? Discuss. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=priamnevhausten>PriamNevhausten</A]&nbsp; at: 10/26/04 3:20 pm

[FlamingDeth]

It is completely ethical to lead a life completely free of deceit. However, keep in mind that the entire basis behind the Bible is that humans are flawed. With that thrown in the mix, no, I'm not entirely sure that it's possible. <p>
<hr width="70%"><center>This month's "Transformer of the Month" is Pipes! He turns into a truck, and his primary function is not taking out the trash.</center></p>

[Zemyla]

Actually, the Bible specifically says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." I think Heinlein discussed in one of his books that if everyone told the truth all the time, society would be torn apart. <p>-----
Do not taunt Happy Fun Zemyla.

<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I think boobs are the lesser of two evils. - Inverse (Pervy)
Dammit, Dan, I'm not dating a damn NPC! - OOC Will (Will Baseton)
Of course! Anything worth doing is worth doing completely wrong! - Travis English
Ultimately, wizards and clerics don't say, "Gee, I want to become a lich because weapons hurt less and I don't have to worry about being backstabbed; that whole 'eternal life' thing is just a fringe benefit."-Darklion</span>

Adventurers! | RPG World World | The Phantom Lord's OT Board mkII | Indie Madnesse | Brotherhood of Elitist Bastards</p>

[Jak Snide]

There's the old situation of a white lie, such as when your grandmother buys you that horrible sweater for Christmas when you really wanted a toy train, then asks if you like it. If you reply truthfully then you'll hurt her feelings (and come off as being obnoxious and/or gormless) while telling her that you love it is generally seen as the "right" thing to do.

Of course, I've seen this extended to people lying to their friends when they're upset to comfort them when something's gone wrong, even when it'd be more helpful in the long run to point out how the friend had messed up and that it wasn't all the other person's fault.

[Molokidan]

Sorry, but no matter HOW cool you are, there's no way you can go all those days without lying. Especially as a child. I mean, come on. Kids? They're lying whores. They lie all the time.

But even as an adult, it would be impossible to NOT LIE for your entire life. Just ain't possible. Maybe for a few days or two, but you would eventually crack. Haven't you folks seen Liar Liar? <p>---------------

"Well slap a dead fish on me and call me Molokidan!"</p>

[Nakibe]

You realize of course that there are as many reasons for telling someone a lie as there are lies to tell.

That aside, I personally don't think it's possible for anyone to go through life without telling at least SOME lie, minor or not. Just remember not to step in your own lies. Or something. <p>

---

*lurks*<br /><br />Warning: The previous was a work of Chaos. Anything said above was written by a certified nut. Caution is advised<br /><br /> MY head, Dia!!! eVe</p>

[Ganonfro]

MY LIFE IS A LIE! *Bursts into tears*

....Ok, that aside, I think it would be a challenge to do it, but I believe it can be done... They just don't grow up in society. If they're completely secluded from the wrong goings on in the world, I'm sure it'd be much easier to do.

[BrainWalker]

Parents are always telling their children not to lie, and yet they constantly lie to their children under the banners of false flattery and protection from concepts children don't understand. People, in general, don't want to piss off other people, and thus they gave birth to the "little white lie". Deciet has been a part of human nature since Adam and Eve took their respective bites of that forbidden fruit, and it will be a part of human nature until the day we die. Perhaps longer if you end up heading south after that.

<table background="http://home.earthlink.net/~brainwalker/pics/drk_shdws.jpg" align="center" border="3" bordercolor="darksalmon" cellpadding="5"><tr><td></td><td align="center" style="font-weight: bold; color: white;">BrainWalker

Your friendly neighborhood
cat... wait, what? WTF!?</td></tr></table>

[The Great Nevareh]

Psychologically, the only way to have a child that never, ever tells a lie in any shade of the word is to have a child that is mute and completely bodily paralyzed so they can't communicate in any way, shape, or form. At a young enough age, the distinction between reality and fantasy is too blurred for a complete blockage of the telling of untruths to exist.
That, and a society where there are no lies or half-truths can be immensely psychologically damaging to a small child. You HAVE to blunt the sharp edges of life for small children, since they probably can't efficiently cope with those sharp edges. You'll end up with a child who has philosophically broken his head open on one of the sharp edges of life because you didn't psychologically baby-proof your society. Shame on you. <p>[---------------------------]
"There is great disorder under Heaven, and the situation is excellent."
-Mao Tse-Tung</p>

[Spleen]

The only possible society that could survive complete truthfulness would also have to have automatic, superinvasive psychic powers. That way, everyone knows everything anyway, so why bother lying? <p>-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

"If a tree falls in the middle of a forest and no one's around to hear it, it was obviously the work of ninja."
-Darkknight

"Two men entered, and...both men left, but not before talking for ninety minutes."
-Stephen Colbert, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, on the first presidential debate.</p>

[PriamNevhausten]

I am somehow happy that the hivemind concept was brought up in this thread. Go spleen! <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Choark]

I never lied when I was a child. When I was in a situation where telling the truth was probably the only way to go I would just clam up and say nothing - sometimes getting me into more trouble then lying would of depending.

Not lying is very hard. <p><div style="text-align:center"> Shhh! </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> </div>
<div style="text-align:center"> Something cute plots your death </div></p>

[Kai]

I guess you could BS a definition of lying as moral if it achieves something in particular. People have goals that, if they are priorities, must be considered important enough to achieve. The most efficient way to achieve something important is usually the best. Lying is often more efficient. Therefore, regardless of what the person is trying to achieve, if they are acting in accord with a goal they believe to be necessary, then the only way for them not to betray their own principles is to lie.

Unfortunately, we get into the problem of 'good' morality and 'bad' morality, which no one really cares about, so my post endeth here.

[PriamNevhausten]

Yay! I was hoping the moral-standards thing would come up here. Also, what is that in your avatar? Is that from Magnetic Rose? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Endesu]

That's the mother of Samara from The Ring. It's a bit of the 'cursed videotape.'

*Disappears*

[Kai]

Well, it seemed pretty irrelevant to me whether someone could go their entire life without lying. The point is, could their life still be moral if they chose not to lead a life of prefect pristine honesty.
My problem was, lying is fairly amoral unless you can attach some actual definition of morality. Since a universal declaration of What Is Moral is not really going to happen, I attached my own. If it could meet anyone's definition of moral behavior, we have to assume that judging the lie would be about as effective as judging the morality of the person in question.

And yeah, the picture is Anna Morgan from The Ring.

[Spleen]

Yeah, me!

I got the idea from <spoiler> in the Foundation series. <Spoiler> said that privacy was meaningless and impossible there, because they had a hivemind. <p>-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

"If a tree falls in the middle of a forest and no one's around to hear it, it was obviously the work of ninja."
-Darkknight

"Two men entered, and...both men left, but not before talking for ninety minutes."
-Stephen Colbert, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, on the first presidential debate.</p>

[Zemyla]

Okay, now I am happy that other people read the Foundation series, too. <p>-----
Do not taunt Happy Fun Zemyla.

<span style="font-size:xx-small;">I think boobs are the lesser of two evils. - Inverse (Pervy)
Dammit, Dan, I'm not dating a damn NPC! - OOC Will (Will Baseton)
Of course! Anything worth doing is worth doing completely wrong! - Travis English
Ultimately, wizards and clerics don't say, "Gee, I want to become a lich because weapons hurt less and I don't have to worry about being backstabbed; that whole 'eternal life' thing is just a fringe benefit."-Darklion</span>

Adventurers! | RPG World World | The Phantom Lord's OT Board mkII | Indie Madnesse | Brotherhood of Elitist Bastards</p>

[Spleen]

I am a crushing wall of pleasure for all. <p>-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

"If a tree falls in the middle of a forest and no one's around to hear it, it was obviously the work of ninja."
-Darkknight

"Two men entered, and...both men left, but not before talking for ninety minutes."
-Stephen Colbert, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, on the first presidential debate.</p>