Theological Question #1

[Wolfbelly]

<FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Before I start, please ... no flame wars. What other people believe, no matter how uninformed it may seem to you, isn't worth hurting feelings over.

Quote:

---

What happens to you when you

---

</FONT><FORM method=post action="http://p068.ezboard.com/frpgww60462frm11.processVote?topicID=570.topic"><table border=0 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 width="55%"><tbody><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="1"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>The body dies and is later resurrected</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="2"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>The body dies and the soul continues on</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="3"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>The body dies and the soul undergoes reincarnation</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="4"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>The body dies</FONT></td></tr><tr><td><input type="radio" name="choice" value="5"><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Other (please explain)</FONT></td></tr></tbody></table><P><input type=submit value="Vote"></form>Show results</FONT>

[Wolfbelly]

Goddamnit. Looks like I missed a spot. Some friendly mod/admin want to throw a 'Die' onto the end of that question?

[Archmage144]

I'm afraid I can't do that, as you can't edit polls. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center"></div>

</p>

[Choark]

Other:

Now the main thing is: I don't think about it anymore. However this isn't my answer. Now I do not believe in the soul at all, so no resurrection, going onto a better place or carrying on to drift or any of that. Anywho this'll probably take a lot to explain and unforantly I can't do it very well but here we go!

When you die you, the part of you that thinks and all that, dies. The whole nothingness gig, like going back to before you were ever born and staying there. So techically thats the "Your body dies" option - however the next part is just of my own simple musings.

I came to understand quite early on in life that everything does in fact "die" and basically ends right there and then. This was true for Me, the trees, the planet, the Sun, all of the stars, the Galaxy and until I relised, the whole universe.

Now at the time this was terrorfying me. I suddenly relised that no matter how long humanity would last - it would in fact end and everything we once knew would be completely forgotten - no everlasting memory of us or anything. Then I relised this would happen to abolsutly everything. Nothing would last ever and it just... end and that be that.

Well when I was a little older and finially starting my GCSE's I learned of a weird thing about Time. The thing about time is, IT can end as well. Time hasn't always been around. In fact before this Galaxy exsisted, time couldn't and didn't exsist.

When - however this thing called life/galaxy - happened, Time began to start - all mixed up and running differently depending on what was going on and spinning but it had Started THEN.

Now, if everything was going to end then when all that was gone I believed that Time itself would end as well. So what you had was from THIS point to THAT point time would be around then it would end.

Now in my younger years of pointless musing I started to think of what is the absence of time and came up with something. If there was no time, then there could obviously be no before - and be no after - and so on. Now how could this exsist? A constant nothing all the "time"?

Well then two options came open to me.

Option 1: This is eventually how everything will end - and techically it would never have ended cause it never began and everything is nothiness. - Cheery.

Or

Option 2: It ends here right? But it can't Stop here. Option one doesn't seem to make sence cause there WAS life, I'm in it now. So when you're outside of time its all one "none moment". We know this can't last forever - cause there isn't forever in this moment. So what if from the stoppage of time is whats causes this Big Bang theory? Or the beginning of everything anyway?

I'll try to say this outside my head but it never works. The beginning and the end of the Galaxy has been and gone so its over. This nothingness is like Around this - before it and after it - but not exsisting in time - now it ended when Time begun and this can only happen once. And once its ended that means Time has began again - which means there's the Galaxy spinning around again.

Then theres life again right? But so what cause I'm dead and ended? But maybe ya not cause you haven't happened yet because this beginning happened outside of time so maybe it could only happen once - cause you can't have been alive before time didn't exsist.

So basically what I'm saying is its exactly the same thing. Spinning in exactly the same way - cause its exactly the same - doing it fo the first time. Everything is happening again - exactly as it happened before- except it IS the first time.

Now a mind can't remember nothing cause its nothing. So maybe when we die - we are born? No memories - no reincartment - no soul passed on - just one (horrible) loop where we sort of relive our one life over and over and over again - but techically its only once.

Now I don't fully believe this will happen but it sticks with me better then any "We have a Soul" theory or anything else thats been thrown my way.

So either I'll return to nothingness and thats that.
Or I'll see you all again, forever, eve though its only once.

If that fitted into another option - sorry.

And sorry - but this probably makes no sence but I can never type out or say what I want to say properly.

[Biomess]

Say what!?!?!?!

A few tips for you:
Various phisycs that support the theory that time will eventually end once the greates state of enthropy is reached also believe that at that moment the "arrow" of time will turn around and everything (and I do mean everything) will go backwards... maybe that goes a bit with your theory, tough not a cycle in itself, it is an ethernal swing back and forth.
Secondly, various theorists predict (or suppose, rather) the existance of other dimensions, where the laws we know do not exist, and are different in every aspect of our knowledge.

About the question, I picked a soul that carries on. Why? Not just because it's poetic, but also because I believe in God. And this is far from religion, I just happen to think (regardles the skeptics that criticize) that there just has to be something superior to everything we could possibly come to know. My evidences are simple: anyone that has ever studied the complexities of a single cell, even the simplest in existence, has to admire the complex mechanisms that allow it to defeat enthropy and time. There is not enough time in the Universe to account for all the necesary random reactions that could possibly lead to the billions of billions of possible organic compunds that comprise the mechanisms of that cell. I guess what I'm trying to say is, either life was somehow "guided" in its evolution or it is just a gigantic, enourmous, infinite, absurdly large (like my icons) fluke, that just was lucky enough to end right. Statistically that's almost impossible. But hey, current physics laws allow for a glass of water that falls off a table to bounce right back (there's just too little chance of it happening, go try!).
Soooooo, I have a God, how did I end up with a soul you ask? (you are asking for trouble). In short, since there's a God, there are miracles. Since there are miracles, there's a pretty good chance of angels existing, and while angels are not souls, they are pretty much like it....

The long answer is: I have seen many things, and heard more even. I have heard of people feeling things outside normal senses, and I do believe there is a special link between that God and everything. Confusing, huh? Well, it's something I believe, and that comes close to Christianity, so there you go!

Note: I'm not advocating for Christianity. I think that it's Ok for someone to believe they are right about their religion to be the "correct" one, but argueing about it is just lame, unreasonable and idiotic.
<p>---------------------
I hate no html comments allowed. I HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT.
</p>

[SALSAlys]

Mm. Can't say I follow any particular religion, although if anything, I'd likely be something vaguely neopagan or similar. ^_^;;

But... I figure that even when the body dies, the soul continues. Maybe reincarnation, maybe not. I figure that when you die, that little bit that makes you 'you' goes to an afterlife of sorts, no matter what your religion. Same location, different descriptions or ideas of it for different religions, but I think it's a pretty good place, for good people. Or maybe I'm just innately trusting, figure that most people, at heart, have some good things going for them so that even if you're deadly enemies in the living world, you can at least tolerate eachother when dead.

...that last sentence made no sense whatsoever, but continue on. *shrug*

But anyways, so once you die, I figure you go up there, and if you want, like there's something you want to finish, or you just want more experiences, you can volunteer to live again. Maybe not necessarily this world, or same gender, religion, race, wahtever, maybe even in a whole different realm of possibility... but you can go on and do other things. Just keep reliving it, have good stuff happen.

*chuckle* Kind of incoherent, but I'm typing this in computer lab, with limited time for this, so maybe I'll edit it or something later, but most likely I'm just going to forget this.

[Dalin Rifthome]

What existed before God? *Not trying to denounce the christian faith, its just this helps with my theory.*

Math. You cant honestly say there was a time when 1+1 DIDNT = 2. Thats impossible. If such was the case, Im guessing we're all living in a dream world or SOMETHING. If Math is never ending, isnt it equeally possible that TIME then never ends? And dont fool yourself, math is forever. Now thir may come a time when Math is as usefull as a piece of chewing gum on a stick. But it will still be there.

Now think of your body as a floppy disk. Your soul as a pdf file. When your Disk is corrupted *Dead* our file gets uploaded to a big Computer in the sky, you meet up with other files, and are then downloaded into a different disk. Maybe not the same floppy, maybe now Its a cd, *Differnt dimention* but since all that information Is to much, they only place the information that is relvent to that file. Which is why you cant remember past experiences.

Every baby born in this world, is like a clean slate. You have a soul, and this soul is imbued with the will to survive. Nothing more. You grow up taking in all this information, and storing it in your soul. When you die, your soul is transfered SOMEHWERE I have no clue, call it heaven if you want. And when theres an opening in a new "host" your "Soul" is placed into to, new existance, and all your memories and information is stored in this heaven for outher souls to acess and read. LIke a big library.

So What Im saying is, the meaning of existance is to gather information, and you go to a big data storage area after death. But agian, this is only my theroy.. <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

[WhiteShadow]

Well, I put reincarnation, but that's more of a hope than an idea. Unfortunately, I'm too scientific to fully believe anything other than the nothingness that will come with death... *sigh*

Although, to stray from the topic somewhat, I had a strange thought the other day... What if, when you die, you simply relive your life, from start to finish? It was just a crazy idea, but that would explain "fate" and all that crap, because you're no longer making active decisions, just following the tape.

Oh well, enough about my crazy theories ;) <p>-----------------------------------------------------
"To fall, to fall... Glorious!"</p>

[Animala]

So, Dalin, you're saying that abstract concepts existed prior to either the beings that concieved them or the physical objects they're related to?

I don't buy it. I don't suggest that 1+1 did not equal 2, but rather that neither 1 nor 2 could exist without someone to come up with them, or at the very least an object and another object to combine to create two objects.

Now, there is the argument my older brother once tried to construct that claimed that math was a fundamental part of the divine. His argument involved the Trinity, which Catholics believe as one of their sacred mysteries has existed for all times, even prior to the incarnation. One God in three persons. Thus, one and three must have existed, and from one and three follow the rest of mathematics.

Personally, I don't buy it. I think you could well have one and three without the rest of arithmetic, and even without two. And in any case, if I were to believe that a number would be part of the fundamental existence of God, it would have to be a number that we don't have: something that would describe the "one God in three persons" state more completely.

-White Knight <p>

---

Behold! Sig figs!</p>

[Dalin Rifthome]

Are you sitting there trying to tell me that math "Couldent" have existied untill someone figured it out? Thus: Air shouldent have existied untill someone figured out they where breathing something and POOF! It was so?

What Im getting out of your post, is that Items or objects cant exist untill someone, or something figures them out and brings them into being. Thats impossible. Math is not a psyical form, or even an abstract idea. Shure its a Idea, only because we cant give it psyical form. Hence: Math can, and in MY opinion, probably did, exist before ANYone discoverd it.

Then agian, I could be WAY off base on your post, so, enlighten me. <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

[Animala]

You are indeed "WAY off base."

First, a quote from your post.

" Are you sitting there trying to tell me that math "Couldent" have existied untill someone figured it out?"

Now, a quote from my previous one, with emphasis added.

"I don't suggest that 1+1 did not equal 2, but rather that neither 1 nor 2 could exist without someone to come up with them, or at the very least an object and another object to combine to create two objects."

You suggested that, in a universe devoid of all physical things 1+1=2 (since the popular view is that God created the physical universe, I assumed that mathematics existing before God implied that). I am saying that I don't believe 2 could exist before the was anything for there to be two of.

Of course "air" (assuming you refer to Earth's atmosphere) existed as soon as Earth had an atmosphere. Air is not abstract. I can breathe it, I can measure it, and I can choose to breathe helium instead to make my voice sound funny.

"Math is not a psyical form, or even an abstract idea."

Then what is it? What would you describe it as, besides a formal system?

"Shure its a Idea, only because we cant give it psyical form."

I have no idea what you're saying here, although it is an interesting illustration of the migratory patterns of the letter "h."

And now, just to be contrary, I will give an indisputable example of when 1+1 does NOT equal 2.

In base 2, 1 + 1 = 10.

-White Knight <p>

---

Behold! Sig figs!</p>

[EKDS5k]

Yeah, but it still denotes that one and one makes two.

[Animala]

What is this "two" you speak of? We shall have none of your godless heathen twos in the purest of all bases!

-White Knight <p>

---

Behold! Sig figs!</p>

[PriamNevhausten]

Freaking....gah. Here, I'm going to drop a quote, and leave this thread, because religion discussions NEVER end well and are NEVER pleasant.

"So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose that it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be."
--Stephen Hawking

Do consider the possibility that the universe has ALWAYS existed, and will ALWAYS continue to exist. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Animala]

Priam is incorrect. I have had religious discussions that both ended well and were pleasant.

These discussions even involved people I disagreed with.

Not that he's going to read this to find out, of course, since he nobly delivered his shot and then fled the field.

-White Knight <p>

---

Behold! Sig figs!</p>

[SuperRube]

The campping faggort. <p>

---

"Carrying a ham into a room, Mr. Connery says, 'hon mono.' It basically means that the ham he carries is genuine or real. We expect nothing less."</p>

[Dalin Rifthome]

Ohhh I get it now, THATS an interesting way of looking at it.

And no worries I fail to see how this could end badly if we manage to keep this civil eh? ;)

<p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

[Wolfbelly]

Priam, so long as people are willing to keep the majority of their dogma outside of their discussion, religious debates can be great learning experiences. It's only when people come in who see their view as being the truth and steadfastly tell everyone else that they're wrong that problems begin to occur. It's always the introduction of one of those types that destroys debates, whether they're religious or not.

[Celeste of Elvenhame]

Priam the problem is you are arrogant and derogatory when discussing things you don't believe in. That is why you end up in fights about them. If you didn't put down another person's religion in the process and instead showed respect for it whether or not you agreed with the views, you'd get a lot farther.
<p>---------------Celeste of Elvenhame --------------- </p>

[PriamNevhausten]

Ironically, it seems the rather diminutive foreword with my last post here has caused the whole discussion to be derailed. I find it greatly amusing that people are still talking to me in this thread when I said I wouldn't even look at it anymore.

Maybe I should say disagreeable, unrelated things in more arguments. At least it stops and/or prevents bickering about the subject, it seems. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[PopoSujo]

YOU LIED! You said you wouldn't come back here; now I can't talk shit about you without you knowing :( *throws McDonald's chicken nuggets at Priam* <p>

---

The Media is an organization in the same sense that Ohio is a team. -PriamNevhausten</p>

[Animala]

"I find it greatly amusing that people are still talking to me in this thread when I said I wouldn't even look at it anymore."

I find it amusing that you then read it, and thus acknowledged that we had been right to address remarks to you, for your will was weak and you could not fulfill your vow.

As I knew you would.

DANCE, puppet, DANCE!

-White Knight <p>

---

Behold! Sig figs!</p>

[PriamNevhausten]

Of course, I memorize every thread's name and any numbers and dates associated with it. And "Theological Question #1," amongst others such as "Theological Question #2" and so forth, was very obvious in its content, even though it was only tenuously related to the other aforementioned threads. Of COURSE I had been watching this thread the whole time, how could I not have been? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Animala]

Ah, but I know how the doubt grew in your mind and heart, how its icy tendrils caressed your brain...I know how your resistances crumbled, and with trembling hand, you clicked on the thread and beheld my masterpiece.


-White Knight <p>

---

Behold! Sig figs!</p>Edited by: [url=http://pub30.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=whiteknightdelta>White]&nbsp; at: 11/4/03 12:28 am

[PriamNevhausten]

I just thought this thread had already died, and when my unsuspecting hand found it back at this location, I was as surprised as I was that people were still talking to me. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[PopoSujo]

Quote:

---

I was as surprised as I was

---

O_o <p>

---

The Media is an organization in the same sense that Ohio is a team. -PriamNevhausten</p>

[Animala]

I am as suprised as I am that you can maintain these illusions so well. Perhaps you hide the truth even from yourself, but I can see it so very clearly. You fear our words. You fear what we might say in your absence. And that fear drives you to return to me.

As it always has.

-White Knight <p>

---

Behold! Sig figs!</p>

[Seraph Cherry]

What if math was really going to become obsolete as the greeks beliefs and all did. would it not be odd to see the future and that they looked back at our math and read odd stories to their children about mythical Paythagores and his mighty powers. We don't belive that our way of life will ever not be as it is, but so did ancient cultures

[Blackwind Isao]

The new guy has to chip in on this... even if it is old.

I will not bore you all to tears with an extended explaination of string theory or a conversation about the possibility of parallel dimensions where the laws of physics and therefore everything else may or may not exist. If you are interested enough you can always google it out and find it rather easily.

That said, I believe that there is no soul contained inside the body. When you die, that's it.

- Blackwind.

[Vampire Jester Jinx]

ressurecting old threads baaaad. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center">

On Bitey, on Molesty,On Sigfried and Roy, on Slasher,On Bitchslap, Yuri and Yaoi! Yo ho ho! And Merry Christmas you bastards!</div></p>