Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

RP-related discussion otherwise not covered in the Character Closet.
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helvorn
 
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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:31 pm

I prefer the system from the RH. However I see Chris' point that you should not GAIN things from the malignancy tests; benefits should be gained via Dark Pacts that have their own costs in CP and other demands.

I suggest using a mix of the two systems and throwing out the more positive aspects of the RH system or sticking with the RH system sans the good results.

At the end of the day the charts should just be a guide for the GM.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:37 pm

New character #1 looks good. I see he has tech use...

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:04 pm

helvorn wrote:New character #1 looks good. I see he has tech use...


Only the standard Hive Worlder Basic version (a whopping 17% basic chance). We have a Reclaimator coming up.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 pm

I'm pretty sure I'll use the straight DH rules, but it should be some time before this is a concern for anybody (barring a very unfortunate Perils of the Warp result). Pretty much the only thing I like about the RH variant is the possibility of getting Forbidden Lore (Warp).

Since burning fate points is basically a way of keeping a character playable (taken out of play = dead), I would let someone do that to bring an obvious mutation down to something more manageable.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:07 pm

InquisitorChris wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll use the straight DH rules, but it should be some time before this is a concern for anybody (barring a very unfortunate Perils of the Warp result). Pretty much the only thing I like about the RH variant is the possibility of getting Forbidden Lore (Warp).

Since burning fate points is basically a way of keeping a character playable (taken out of play = dead), I would let someone do that to bring an obvious mutation down to something more manageable.


I could see a corruption incident providing some degree of Forbidden Lore (Warp). I do like the idea of burning Fate points to mitigate a mutation.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:28 pm

helvorn wrote:
InquisitorChris wrote: I do like the idea of burning Fate points to mitigate a mutation.


In an RPG, "dead" = "nonplayable," so I would let someone do it.
Last edited by InquisitorChris on Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:32 pm

Slimy tentacles and such would tend to make a character unplayable... at least in a non-Radical game.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:16 pm

I massively prefer the RH version of the corruption tract simply because it avoids the problem of "suddenly, mutations!" The original corruption tract is far too heavy handed and damning a set of mechanics for my tastes, especially given the difficulty of resisting mutations. The malignancies are great, adding a touch of mechanical flavour to a character's soul being tainted. When you grow funny eyes, scaly skin or whatever then that's it. You're a mutant, touched by the warp and ready for purging. There's no nuance, just a character suddenly becoming unplayable.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:58 am

I see your point. My counterargument would be that Dark Heresy is a system with high character mortality as it is, and corruption (and insanity and death) should be things to be feared. Moreover, as I said above, assuming you have fate points left I would allow one to be burned to mitigate the effects, for instance, downgrading a major mutation to something manageable and less noticeable or exchanging it for something else (such as a couple of extra Malignancies, a heapload of Insanity Points, or something of that nature.)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:45 pm

On another note, I think I'm going to import that Rogue Trader rule that I didn't know existed until I read it yesterday in one of Alex's threads about the minimum damage of an attack being modified by degrees of success (do I have that right?).

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:55 am

You got it. If you need to roll a 54 to hit and roll an 11 (4 DoS) then roll a 2 on the damage die you'd upgrade that roll to a 4. It means that highly skilled people/ridiculously easy shots are unlikely to score glancing hits.

Rogue Trader has a few tweaks that I like (the ability to move your Agility Bonus in meters while performing Semi or Full Auto attacks (thought at a penalty to BS), Bulging Biceps being more useful and a few other things that escape my memory right now) but there's at least one that that's proved to be a problem. Righteous Fury in RT means you roll full weapon damage again, just just +1d10. This is a nice little boost for stuff like lasguns, but when it comes to bigger guns it becomes ludicrous. Deathwatch had the same rules for RF and they had to be errata'd to +1d10 because astartes bolters, with 2d10+5 damage and Tearing, would obtain Righteous Fury quite often and became capable of mulching even the toughest foes. Rogue Trader also made a pigs ear of Unnatural Statistics and the rules for them. I've only even found them stated concisely in a single location, that being in the Inquisitor's Handbook.

Image

Even then it isn't perfect. Why would an Unnatural Stat only affect unopposed skill tests and not any unopposed test related to the unnatural stat? What of opposed tests that are based on a skill? It's an issue unlikely to come up in Dark Heresy (where obtaining an Unnatural Stat usually means that something has gone very, very wrong) but one that does frequently occur in Rogue Trader (where good quality cortex implants, vat-grown muscle enhancements and other esoteric and expensive augmetic enhancements are available). FFG being sloppy with their editing is no real surprise, just a frequent disappointment. It's a real shame, given how good everything else is. Except Ascension, but that's a grumble for another time.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:52 am

Jak Snide wrote:
Even then it isn't perfect. Why would an Unnatural Stat only affect unopposed skill tests and not any unopposed test related to the unnatural stat? What of opposed tests that are based on a skill? It's an issue unlikely to come up in Dark Heresy (where obtaining an Unnatural Stat usually means that something has gone very, very wrong) but one that does frequently occur in Rogue Trader (where good quality cortex implants, vat-grown muscle enhancements and other esoteric and expensive augmetic enhancements are available). FFG being sloppy with their editing is no real surprise, just a frequent disappointment. It's a real shame, given how good everything else is. Except Ascension, but that's a grumble for another time.


I've been wondering about something. Unnatural Agility (x2) would give a +10 to Dodge, wouldn't it? (By lowering the difficulty of the Test from Challenging.) This is never spelled out, especially because Dodge doesn't have difficulty levels, so I'm not sure.

I like the Influence rules in Ascension at least. I don't have much interest in playing a game at that level myself, at least at this point. I know the standard complaints (Vindicare Assassions, Primaris Psykers), but have you tried running/playing a game with it?

(Also, how does the RT damage rule interact with autofire and semiautofire? Seems... weird.)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:21 pm

That's how I interpret Unnatural Agility and Dodging, yeah. An eldar aspect warrior with agility 60, Dodge +20, Step Aside and Unnatural Agility x2 is a terrifying opponent. At least until you can bring a half-dozen guns to bear on it.

As for Ascension, I've yet to play it but I've heard a couple of reports on games that have been run. High rank DH characters are generally very potent to begin with. One GM said it was literally impossible to challenge his group without throwing the utterly absurd at them. From the sounds of things the game was fairly action heavy to begin with but it had transitioned from extreme danger and epic conflicts to "throne agents go punch greater daemons in the face." Space marines had nothing on these guys.

In concept Ascension is wonderful and the Influence system looks solid. The problems arise when it comes down to the overall power level of the characters and the careers. Some are hideously powerful either by design or accident (Vindicare can dodge the undodgeable 10+ times a round, Death Cult Assassin can charge 80m and make 4 attacks in 5 seconds, the old Unnatural Willpower + Force Barrage combo) while others have clearly been neglected. Look at the Crusader; it's a bit muddled thematically. They're supposed to be melee warriors but only get a slow trickle of treats in that regard. They're also belong to well respected crusader houses and get a load of peer/good reputation talents to this end, but their fellowship advances are hideously expensive and they're likely to come from base careers with moderate to expensive advances. Overall it just feels a bit rushed and so badly balanced that it becomes a problem in a game that usually doesn't worry much about such things.

On Rogue Trader's DoS damage stuff: You get to replace a one single damage die with the DoS if you want. So if you roll snake eyes with your Inferno pistol on a 6 DoS hit you can only upgrade one of those 1s. I suspect it's the same with rapid fire weapons; only one of those hits is going to benefit from a damage upgrade.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:38 pm

Jak Snide wrote:
On Rogue Trader's DoS damage stuff: You get to replace a one single damage die with the DoS if you want. So if you roll snake eyes with your Inferno pistol on a 6 DoS hit you can only upgrade one of those 1s. I suspect it's the same with rapid fire weapons; only one of those hits is going to benefit from a damage upgrade.


Hmmm. I don't know if this makes sense, since on average your DOS on an auto or semiauto attack is going to determine your number of hits, and your DOSs go up an average of 2 or 1 just from the attack. Firing full auto means less accuracy with the individual shots, not more.

If I made it not apply to autofire, that would give an actual reason for firing a lasgun single-shot other than ammo conservation.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:45 pm

BTW one of the new players (Matt's friend) had to withdraw due to work and time considerations. If anybody knows of a person who would be interested let me know -- I have 1 person ready but want 2.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:33 am

InquisitorChris wrote:Hmmm. I don't know if this makes sense, since on average your DOS on an auto or semiauto attack is going to determine your number of hits, and your DOSs go up an average of 2 or 1 just from the attack. Firing full auto means less accuracy with the individual shots, not more.

If I made it not apply to autofire, that would give an actual reason for firing a lasgun single-shot other than ammo conservation.


Fair enough. The whole semi-auto/full-auto deal causes enough debate as it is. I've seen a few house rules regarding it. The most popular seems to be switching the extra hit criterion; semi auto gets an extra hit per DoS, full auto gets one every two. Semi-auto ends up being the most efficient (and means that lasguns aren't considered horribly sucky) while full auto gives you more of a chance of hitting something and, in theory, gives you more potential hits. Full Auto capability is still needed for suppressing fire, so that keeps weapons that only do full auto useful. It'd probably require a few weapons to be tweaked (I'm sure the combat shotgun is semi auto not because it fires in a controlled burst but because it can't fire any faster) but overall it seems like the best solution if you have issues with the mechanics. Unlike the "every stray bullet costs you 1 Profit Factor" house rule I read about once. I'm only half convinced it was a troll.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:28 am

Jak Snide wrote:
InquisitorChris wrote:Hmmm. I don't know if this makes sense, since on average your DOS on an auto or semiauto attack is going to determine your number of hits, and your DOSs go up an average of 2 or 1 just from the attack. Firing full auto means less accuracy with the individual shots, not more.

If I made it not apply to autofire, that would give an actual reason for firing a lasgun single-shot other than ammo conservation.


Fair enough. The whole semi-auto/full-auto deal causes enough debate as it is. I've seen a few house rules regarding it. The most popular seems to be switching the extra hit criterion; semi auto gets an extra hit per DoS, full auto gets one every two. Semi-auto ends up being the most efficient (and means that lasguns aren't considered horribly sucky) while full auto gives you more of a chance of hitting something and, in theory, gives you more potential hits. Full Auto capability is still needed for suppressing fire, so that keeps weapons that only do full auto useful. It'd probably require a few weapons to be tweaked (I'm sure the combat shotgun is semi auto not because it fires in a controlled burst but because it can't fire any faster) but overall it seems like the best solution if you have issues with the mechanics. Unlike the "every stray bullet costs you 1 Profit Factor" house rule I read about once. I'm only half convinced it was a troll.


I actually don't consider lasguns horribly sucky -- that Reliable can be a lifesaver.

I think not giving lasguns full auto and giving them Reliable instead was a design decision made to distinguish lasguns from autoguns. Without that, lasguns and autoguns would be identical except in type of damage done, amount of damage, and a very slight range difference.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:15 am

Indeed. Trouble is that things like "reliable" and "near-infinitely rechargeable power supply" tend to get ignored in favour of full auto. +20 to hit, with an extra hit per DoS, and the ability to use suppressing fire is very, very valuable. Suppressing fire is a huge deal when it comes to combat between regular folks; it's very hard to resist and drops you to a 1/2 action per round while also imposing a -20 BS penalty. It's a shame, since the lasgun is the definitive soldier's weapon of the Imperium (until you work your way up to some hot shot with a bolter, anyway) and most people ignore it in favour of the autogun.

Of course, the autogun rinses through ammo at an astonishing rate if you go spraying it everywhere.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:26 am

Jak Snide wrote:
Of course, the autogun rinses through ammo at an astonishing rate if you go spraying it everywhere.


And it has a not insignificant chance of jamming when you're doing so.

By the way, how are you making these maps (like this one: http://alswebpage.netfirms.com/jaksbit/ ... hmap_2.png )? I need to learn how to do that.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:51 am

Paint.net

Free image editing program, somewhere between Photoshop and MS Paint. LAYERS make your life infinitely easier as a GM. Have the grid/map as one layer and anything that moves about on a layer above it. As for the image you linked involved drawing the upstairs bits on one layer, making the grey floor they were standing on partially transparent and I then put a layer beneath it, copied over the correct section from the ground floor map into said layer than then used a built in blurring effect (defocus) to distinguish between it and the stuff happening above it. If you click here you can see what the map would look like with the bottom layer/ground floor turned off. Bear in mind that the white you see is transparent/blank space. If you check out the program try deleting some of the default white page you start with and you'll see what I mean.

It took me a little while to get used to but I highly recommend it. It makes creating and updating maps much, much easier. If you'd like I can upload a blank grid that I use as a template for ground combat, at least when I've decided that exact positioning matters.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:04 am

Thanks. I will try fiddling with it. It looks useful.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:38 pm

It looks like an awesome tool.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:50 pm

I talked to another friend about the game... we'll see.

He's running a cool Deadlands game and is a very good player.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Deadlands-WWW/?yguid=303484241

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:56 pm

Oh that would be good. I hope if he can he'll come in soon.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:43 pm

He's a pretty busy guy so we'll see... Don't hold anything up waiting.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:48 pm

I need an Adept dammit!

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:22 pm

I have a question for those of you in the States. If I were to Western Union you the money, could you buy and send me a copy of Deathwatch and the news Sisters book? I am crippled by my lack of a credit card and geographical location. (I have a US PO Box, which is why I am asking US-ers.)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:29 pm

I've bought stuff on ebay and such in the past for folks in the UK. I'd be happy to get the book and send it. Which book exactly do you want?

I assume that I'm not going to get arrested for espionage shipping a book to Russia :)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:55 pm

Don't worry Games Workshop already has a sizable presence in Russia and can count as your cover. ;)

I would like Deathwatch and the new book that came out on the Ecclesiarchy. And isn't there some nifty supplement for Rogue Trader? (Realistically I have little use for any of these, but the 10-year-old in me really really wants them.)

Thanks a lot!

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:26 pm

There is Rogue Trader: Into the Storm for $33, Deathwatch is $38 and Dark Heresy; Blood of Martyrs is $27 all on Amazon. If you want those three I can order them together and get the free shipping. I'm not sure what the rate to ship to Russia is but I can see if there is a book rate or such.

I've been buying a lot of the books just because they are nifty also :)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:58 pm

That's less expensive than I expected.

Don't worry about shipping rates. I handle international mail through my employer, which has a US office. Just send the stuff to the NYC PO Box and it should get to me.

I get paid somewhere around two weeks from now so I'll give you the address then.

Thanks a million!

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:29 pm

Ordered. The books are all in stock and will be here sometime toward the end of next week.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:25 am

Wow you're awesome. Kara gets another Fate Point! (Just kidding.)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:13 am

It's no big deal to order the stuff; glad to help. I can sympathize with the obsession to collect the stuff; they're worth reading just for the fluff.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:00 pm

BTW, does anybody know of any BPB games coming up. I have GM'd this game plenty, but never actually been a player, and I have a Hive Mutant Penitent Penal Legionnaire Tranch War Veteran I am dying to play. (It is amazing how many Corruption Points you can start off with if you really try.)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:15 pm

helvorn wrote:It's no big deal to order the stuff; glad to help. I can sympathize with the obsession to collect the stuff; they're worth reading just for the fluff.


Chris, The goodies arrived today. Just shoot me the PO box info and I'll get them mailed off to you.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:18 pm

InquisitorChris wrote:BTW, does anybody know of any BPB games coming up. I have GM'd this game plenty, but never actually been a player, and I have a Hive Mutant Penitent Penal Legionnaire Tranch War Veteran I am dying to play. (It is amazing how many Corruption Points you can start off with if you really try.)


I'd like to try other than a psyker. Maybe a tech priest to really mess with the mind.

So how many corruption points did you quite manage? Inquiring minds want to know :)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:29 pm

helvorn wrote:
InquisitorChris wrote:BTW, does anybody know of any BPB games coming up. I have GM'd this game plenty, but never actually been a player, and I have a Hive Mutant Penitent Penal Legionnaire Tranch War Veteran I am dying to play. (It is amazing how many Corruption Points you can start off with if you really try.)


I'd like to try other than a psyker. Maybe a tech priest to really mess with the mind.

So how many corruption points did you quite manage? Inquiring minds want to know :)


This character has a mere 17 (and one Malignancy). I think the theoretical maximum is 33 (10 from Tainted Blood of Malfi or Blighted Schola + 20 from Penitent or Warp Touched + 3 from Divination).

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:42 pm

InquisitorChris wrote:
This character has a mere 17 (and one Malignancy). I think the theoretical maximum is 33 (10 from Tainted Blood of Malfi or Blighted Schola + 20 from Penitent or Warp Touched + 3 from Divination).


Damn! That's starting behind the eight ball already.

Matt

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:30 pm

Penitent gives you 2d10. Then again, it also gives you Flagellant, Dark Soul, and Insanely Faithful, which are reasonable protection against further corruption.

Heck I'll just post the character I rolled up because I like him so much. The idea is that he is a former member of the Pale Throng uprising on Tranch who betrayed his masters (he has Hatred (Mutants)!). I must admit that I got some really good rolls. The flintlock pistol is a nod to his primitive background in the underhive. Probably has some sentimental value.

Home World: Hive World (Hive Mutant)
Career Path: Guardsman (Penal Legionnaire)
Divination: “Men must die so that Man endures”

Weapon Skill: 32
Ballistic Skill: 36
Strength: 45 SB: 4
Toughness: 47 TB: 4
Agility: 24 AB: 2
Intelligence: 38
Perception: 29
Willpower: 32
Fellowship: 28

Wounds: 12
Fate Points: 1
Initiative Bonus: 4
Corruption Points: 17 (Soiled) Malignancies: Malign Sight
Insanity Points: 5 (Stable)

Traits: Caves of Steel, Hivebound, Wary, Twist, Strength through Adversity

Talents: Melee Weapon Training (Primitive), Pistol Training (Primitive), Basic Weapon Training (Primitive, Las), Dark Soul, Insanely Faithful, Flagellant, Hatred (Mutants), Light Sleeper, Streetfighting, Psy Rating 1

Basic Skills: Tech-Use (Int)

Advanced Skills: Forbidden Lore (Mutants, Heresy), Speak Language (Low Gothic, Hive Dialect) (Int), Search (Per), Swim (S)

Mutations: Brute, Wyrdling

Psychic Powers: Lucky (6; Half; You), Precognition (6; Half; Sustainable; You)

Advancements: Penitent (200), Tranch War Veteran (100), Streetfighting (100)

Weapons: Sword, Lasgun and 1 charge pack, Flintlock Pistol and 12 shots, Bow and 10 arrows, Knife

Armour: Guard Flak Armour (All 4)

Gear: Street clothes (Common Quality Clothing), 1 week corpse starch rations, explosive collar
Last edited by InquisitorChris on Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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