Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

RP-related discussion otherwise not covered in the Character Closet.
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helvorn
 
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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:07 am

I certainly over reacted to the situation in the room with Jenkins. It was a reaction to the last encounter that seemed to grind on with us unable to hit and because of the frenzy the things just not going down. Then the back to back fear tests either froze or further hindered our ability to react. I figured if these things were frenzied like the last ones they would (literally) eat our lunch just from sheer attrition. Then while the Jenkins-thing hadn't attacked the work up to the encounter had us (me at least) on edge and expecting it to come after us.

That said, I'd prefer to move on and continue the game. I think we've pretty much heard everyone's point of view including the moderators and Chris seems willing to make some adjustments to help the game roll more smoothly. I think the time has come for the players and GM to make a decision and move on or call a halt.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby gsteelwraith » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:43 pm

I will agree the strings of poor dice rolls are grating. Our characters are supposed to be well-trained, competent individuals, and thus far by the dice we're seemingly a bunch of bedwetters whom barely know one end of our weapons from the other. Now, I will say, realistically, combat is a scary thing, and weird stuff happens. I know one incident in NYC where a police officer and a perp fired forty rounds between them, across the hood of a car, none of which actually hit their intended targets. A highly publicized event in Florida showed a disturbed individual firing shots at a school board meeting at point-blank range at unresisting targets. While a couple people were badly injured, none of them died.

This isn't real life, this is a game. Bad dice rolls happen to everyone at some point, its just the multiplicity of them which is causing issue. While I appreciate the GM's desire to let the dice fall where they may, it dragged out the last combat a round or two longer than necessary. Having GMed for twenty odd years, I do the same, however, I can (and will) cheat in favour of the players (though not always) to move the story along. If done right they likely won't know any different. As far as I'm concerned, the story should never be held hostage to a bad die roll, and nothing sours players more than the feeling that they're unable to accomplish anything.

I've said my piece, and I'll yield my soapbox, and hope my waffling is taken in the spirit in which it is meant.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:17 am

gsteelwraith wrote:This isn't real life, this is a game. Bad dice rolls happen to everyone at some point, its just the multiplicity of them which is causing issue. While I appreciate the GM's desire to let the dice fall where they may, it dragged out the last combat a round or two longer than necessary. Having GMed for twenty odd years, I do the same, however, I can (and will) cheat in favour of the players (though not always) to move the story along. If done right they likely won't know any different. As far as I'm concerned, the story should never be held hostage to a bad die roll, and nothing sours players more than the feeling that they're unable to accomplish anything.


This is my own position as a GM. I never roll dice in the open because I do occasionally fudge them to help things along. It doesn't happen often, but when it does nobody knows the difference. Any concerns of me "cheating" are a non-issue; I'm not out to defeat the players. What end would that serve? We're all aware that it happens occasionally but if they're none the wiser then all is well. You can take it too far and fudge dice too often, of course, so you've got to be careful about that.

InquisitorChris wrote:Also, they didn't attack you, you attacked them. You weren't intended to fight them at all. When I constructed the encounter I originally thought about putting up some kind of barrier but couldn't find a way to rationalize it.


That's a pretty interesting assumption to make. Chani is an instrument of the Emperor's will, Kara has tangled with warp-spawned horrors before and Leveticus is a brave and pious priest of the God-Emperor. As for Jim, he's surrendered himself to the reality of the situation and now simply wants to destroy whatever is responsible for it while taking refuge in his hatred. All of them are acolytes of the Inquisition. When these people are confronted by something clearly heretical there's a fair chance that they're going to try to destroy it. The only alternatives I see are fleeing for their lives (possible) and stopping and listening to the warp-tainted, disembodied head spew blasphemy as tainted cherubim tear flesh from its body and feed said head while waiting for the unholy things to attack them.

The PCs have weapons and the Imperium's stance when it comes to heresy is pretty clear. You should have realised that they were likely to engage in combat and planned accordingly, either by giving them a very good reason not to (overwhelming power of the enemy made abundantly clear) or by planning around "purge everything" being a valid solution to being trapped in a basement full of heretical vileness.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:05 am

gsteelwraith wrote:I will agree the strings of poor dice rolls are grating. Our characters are supposed to be well-trained, competent individuals, and thus far by the dice we're seemingly a bunch of bedwetters whom barely know one end of our weapons from the other.


Dark Heresy is notorious for this, so-called Incompetent Acolyte Syndrome. Rank 1 characters are quite weak (not relative to a standard run-of-the-mill Imperial citizen, but relative to having a consistent success rate). I think this may be the result of conflicting design philosophies; on the one hand, it seems the designers wanted to start the characters off as promising but generally not extraordinary people confronted with extraordinary things, a la Call of Cthulhu, but on the other hand, they're supposed to have been hand-picked by the Inquisition and therefore probably extraordinary. Maybe I should have started the characters off with more than the standard 400 XP (say 750 or so) but I wanted to stick to the RAW as closely as possible.

Jak Snide wrote:
The PCs have weapons and the Imperium's stance when it comes to heresy is pretty clear. You should have realised that they were likely to engage in combat and planned accordingly, either by giving them a very good reason not to (overwhelming power of the enemy made abundantly clear) or by planning around "purge everything" being a valid solution to being trapped in a basement full of heretical vileness.


True. I could have set up some form of barrier or overwhelming firepower, and I did think about this, but could find no way to rationalize where such a thing would come from within the context of the situation. I've been trying to make everything that happens flow logically from a single premise and not invoke dei ex machina like barriers appearing from nowhere.

Jak Snide wrote: I never roll dice in the open because I do occasionally fudge them to help things along. It doesn't happen often, but when it does nobody knows the difference. Any concerns of me "cheating" are a non-issue; I'm not out to defeat the players. What end would that serve? We're all aware that it happens occasionally but if they're none the wiser then all is well. You can take it too far and fudge dice too often, of course, so you've got to be careful about that.


The thing is, I have a history of fudging dice rolls a lot in the players' favor, with the result that none of the PCs ever die or have genuinely bad things happen to them, which in what is supposed to be largely a horror setting is not good. This time around I made a solemn oath to myself that I would cure myself of that habit. There must be a golden mean around here somewhere.

OK, to move things on --- does anybody else want to leave the game? If not I will continue from the point where we left off, taking everybody's concerns into consideration. I really do appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:19 am

I vote that we move on.

Have we lost Christian for good? I sent a PM a couple of days ago and haven't heard from him.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:26 am

helvorn wrote:I vote that we move on.

Have we lost Christian for good? I sent a PM a couple of days ago and haven't heard from him.


I exchanged a couple of emails with him but haven't heard back from him lately. I assume he's going since I haven't heard otherwise and that was his last intention. I'm hesitant to actually start NPCing Chani without getting his express permission though.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:34 am

InquisitorChris wrote:
I exchanged a couple of emails with him but haven't heard back from him lately. I assume he's going since I haven't heard otherwise and that was his last intention. I'm hesitant to actually start NPCing Chani without getting his express permission though.


I'd say let her flee for now which puts her off the stage and buys time to either NPC her or let him come back.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby ChristianC » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:57 am

I really don't feel like there's anything I can add to this discussion that hasn't already been said. I am not going to rejoin the game again, I'm already tied up in enough RPs as it is and I simply don't think I have any interest left in this, regardless of if it turns better or not. Sorry, but I'm not going to change my opinion on this matter.

I do hope that things turn out better for all of you guys. I'm sorry for not expressing myself any better than this, but I'm slowly coming out of a very bad cold, and again, I think all of my thoughts and opinions have already been brought up.

I apologize for my lack of contact, but I succumbed to my illness on Tuesday, and I've been having some rather intense, fever-filled days. Today's the first day I'm fever-free.
"That's not interactive, there's no back-and-forth with the other player and how much fun is it to watch someone incredibly good at moving their eyes? And then whichever Seeker gets lucky swoops in and grabs the Snitch and makes everyone else's work moot. It's like someone took a real game and grafted on this pointless extra position just so that you could be the Most Important Player without needing to really get involved or learn the rest of it. Who was the first Seeker, the King's idiot son who wanted to play Quidditch but couldn't understand the rules?" Actually, now that Harry thought about it, that seemed like a surprisingly good hypothesis. Put him on a broomstick and tell him to catch the shiny thing...

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:05 pm

OK, that's fine. I hope you feel better.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Akinya Zuri » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:14 pm

Tactless as it may be to say; lets stop beating a dead horse and move on. Points have been made and honestly Chris has taken the criticism with an amazing amount of grace all things considered. I'm good with continuing whenever we're ready.

Oh, and I know it's a little after the fact but... Chris, with regards to my Ascension toon - she's crawled her way up. Admittedly, I have never started an rpg from lvl 1 (my Inquisitor began at lvl 4 I believe), but after that it was pure grind. RPGs being what they are I would highly advise against starting an rpg at the Ascension level unless the GM and -all- the players were intimately familiar with the setting and the system. You'd never remember anything and would get overwhelmed pretty instantly.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:20 pm

Akinya Zuri wrote:Tactless as it may be to say; lets stop beating a dead horse and move on. Points have been made and honestly Chris has taken the criticism with an amazing amount of grace all things considered. I'm good with continuing whenever we're ready.


I bound about like a ballerina.

I have a work deadline tomorrow. I will try to get to the game before then but I can't promise anything.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:21 pm

ChristianC wrote:
I apologize for my lack of contact, but I succumbed to my illness on Tuesday, and I've been having some rather intense, fever-filled days. Today's the first day I'm fever-free.


I'm sorry to hear you've been ill. It's that time of the year. I was fighting a bad cold last week and having to fly back and forth across the country. Ugh.

We'll miss you in the game but I totally understand your decision. Hopefully our paths will cross again sometime as I enjoyed your gaming and personality.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby gsteelwraith » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:49 pm

Tactless as it may be to say; lets stop beating a dead horse and move on. Points have been made and honestly Chris has taken the criticism with an amazing amount of grace all things considered. I'm good with continuing whenever we're ready.

Oh, and I know it's a little after the fact but... Chris, with regards to my Ascension toon - she's crawled her way up. Admittedly, I have never started an rpg from lvl 1 (my Inquisitor began at lvl 4 I believe), but after that it was pure grind. RPGs being what they are I would highly advise against starting an rpg at the Ascension level unless the GM and -all- the players were intimately familiar with the setting and the system. You'd never remember anything and would get overwhelmed pretty instantly.


I'm all for continuing, but I think we also need to get our newest player in when feasible. I'd rather not start a character at Ascension level or advance the current crew. Characters should be allowed to advance and develop in response to the way things play out. I've found, at least in D&D, that starting characters at higher than 1st tend to be a little too perfectly pointed out, their development seems a bit artificial. I'd like to know how a character got the way they are.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:15 pm

I want to add one final note-

Chris, if you need any advice on GMing, or any other such things, feel free to shoot me a PM. That goes for everyone.
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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Idran1701 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:23 pm

Also, on a similar note (and since you said that thing about crossing paths with Christian, helvorn), all you guys should remember that you're entirely free to join up on other games on the board too. I know Planewalkers, once we get to a mid-quest point I'd be happy to take on some new players if there'd be any interest, and I'm sure there's other GMs here that'd feel the same.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:23 pm

Idran1701 wrote:Also, on a similar note (and since you said that thing about crossing paths with Christian, helvorn), all you guys should remember that you're entirely free to join up on other games on the board too. I know Planewalkers, once we get to a mid-quest point I'd be happy to take on some new players if there'd be any interest, and I'm sure there's other GMs here that'd feel the same.


This. I am one such GM, in fact.
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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:44 pm

Shinigori V2 wrote:
Idran1701 wrote:Also, on a similar note (and since you said that thing about crossing paths with Christian, helvorn), all you guys should remember that you're entirely free to join up on other games on the board too. I know Planewalkers, once we get to a mid-quest point I'd be happy to take on some new players if there'd be any interest, and I'm sure there's other GMs here that'd feel the same.


This. I am one such GM, in fact.


It'd be fun to join some of the other games if GM's are looking for victims... errr players. Is there anywhere in particular to look for notices of openings?

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:45 pm

gsteelwraith wrote:I'm all for continuing, but I think we also need to get our newest player in when feasible. I'd rather not start a character at Ascension level or advance the current crew. Characters should be allowed to advance and develop in response to the way things play out. I've found, at least in D&D, that starting characters at higher than 1st tend to be a little too perfectly pointed out, their development seems a bit artificial. I'd like to know how a character got the way they are.


I've always had more fun starting characters at lower levels and working them up.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Idran1701 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:48 pm

helvorn wrote:
Shinigori V2 wrote:
Idran1701 wrote:Also, on a similar note (and since you said that thing about crossing paths with Christian, helvorn), all you guys should remember that you're entirely free to join up on other games on the board too. I know Planewalkers, once we get to a mid-quest point I'd be happy to take on some new players if there'd be any interest, and I'm sure there's other GMs here that'd feel the same.


This. I am one such GM, in fact.


It'd be fun to join some of the other games if GM's are looking for victims... errr players. Is there anywhere in particular to look for notices of openings?


Usually you can just post in their OOC thread or PM them and ask if they've got an opening and that'd usually be fine, I'd say. For myself, I don't right now, unfortunately, but like I said, I should once the current quest finishes up. There's no one thread for posting openings, though, I'm afraid.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:55 pm

Shinigori V2 wrote:
This. I am one such GM, in fact.


Shinigori V2, which game are you GM'ing?

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:57 pm

Idran1701 wrote:
Usually you can just post in their OOC thread or PM them and ask if they've got an opening and that'd usually be fine, I'd say. For myself, I don't right now, unfortunately, but like I said, I should once the current quest finishes up. There's no one thread for posting openings, though, I'm afraid.


I'll pop over to the planewalkers game and take a look.

An OOC thread just for recruitment would be a good idea.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:03 pm

It'd be fun to join some of the other games if GM's are looking for victims... errr players. Is there anywhere in particular to look for notices of openings?


The OOC forum is full of them. Child's Play is my pet project right now, and I'm looking for a few to fill out the roster for what's actually my second group running a different part of the story.
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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:17 pm

Sorry guys, give me a day here. Work obligations.

(Thanks a lot for the offer. I may do that.)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:45 pm

Take your time Chris; we'll be here.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Akinya Zuri » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:16 pm

Sorry for our absence - lots going on right now... and it's probably only going to get worse from here on in. We'll try keep up as best we can.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:48 am

Believe me, it's been a perfect storm where I am too.

I was wobdering if players would prefer to do their own dice rolling using invisible castle? It would slow things down but it might lead to people feeling more in control.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:21 pm

Other than your problem with online dice rollers (real dice on the way!) I don't have a preference how or who rolls the dice. It'd be easier for the GM to continue to do so.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:39 pm

helvorn wrote:Other than your problem with online dice rollers (real dice on the way!) I don't have a preference how or who rolls the dice. It'd be easier for the GM to continue to do so.


There's a problem with our internet access that is blocking off about 80% of the web. Hopefully we'll get that taken care of soon. (Thanks for the dice and books!)

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Jak Snide » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:50 pm

I'm fine with you rolling the dice for us, chief. Speeds things up.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby Akinya Zuri » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:51 pm

Ok guys, I think it only fair to apologize for my, and by extension, my husband's absence from the game. We are going to be moving in the next 2 months so I have been feverishly trying to find suitable housing and all the lovely little odds and ends involved with relocating out of state. Hectic barely begins to cover it, and it's only getting worse as the end of the school year approaches.
Soo... I'm trying to keep up and, while I would wish otherwise, I feel Sebaztion may simply not be able to continue on a regular basis.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:22 pm

Sorry to hear that things are hectic at the moment. Hopefully when they calm down Sebaztion can rejoin us.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:13 pm

OK, I was a little disheartened by the Chani leaving thing, and then I got permission to finish my dissertation (hooray me!), but now we're back on track and I'll be posting at least once a day.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:24 am

Hang in there Chris. Things are really starting to get interesting now.

Are you working on an advanced degree?

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:42 pm

helvorn wrote:Hang in there Chris. Things are really starting to get interesting now.

Are you working on an advanced degree?


I have an unfinished PhD in philosophy, as in, I left the dissertation uncompleted a long long time ago. I decided to see if I could get permission from my old grad school to finish it finally, and they gave me the thumb's up besides the considerable time (and considerable distance, since it's in the States).

I'm just waiting on posts from you guys to go on. :kirteach: I know Jim is whacking at Jenkin, but don't know about other people.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:15 pm

Very cool that they would let you continue with the dissertation; good luck.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby InquisitorChris » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:30 pm

As is no giant surprise, this game is shutting down (I think part of the problem was poor adventure design; this would have made a better book). Anyway I'll be seeing some of you in my Tattered Fates game.

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Re: Dark Heresy -- Purge the Xenos

Unread postby helvorn » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:27 pm

That's a shame. I was enjoying the game and really liked the characters.

Still, thanks to Chris and everyone for a fun time.

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