On Gwa'Aag and Orcs

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Kelne
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On Gwa'Aag and Orcs

Unread postby Kelne » Sun May 27, 2007 6:48 am

"Your typical orc is none too bright, beligerent, and possessed of a might-makes-right attitude, with the muscle to back it up. Still, at least they have the decency to stay in Gwa'Aag and fight amongst themselves, unlike certain others. Anyone stupid enough to enter said nation or provoke its inhabitants deserves whatever they get." - Kelne

Yes, it's that time again, where Gwa'Aag and orc-kind in general get revised. Given the frequency with which this temptation arises, I think it may be time to bin the old stuff and start from scratch.

I figured I'd start by getting people to table their basic opinions on orcs. Basically how you'd like to see them realised. My own perspective on orcs is heavily influenced by the Games Workshop portrayal of them, for those familiar with it. Anyway, without further ado, my thoughts on orcs.

- Barbarians. Strong, tough, but not particularly bright, and certainly lacking in the accoutrements of civilisation

- Rule by the biggest. Odds are the leader is the biggest, toughest orc in the tribe. If not, he's bound to be challenged in pretty short order. The stronger you are, the higher in the hierarchy, and the more you can push around those weaker than you.

- Nothing better than a fight. The basic goal of an orc's existence is to seek out enemies to fight. If there are no other races handy, the orcs will happily fight amongst themselves. This internecine conflict is the reason they're not constantly at war with their neighbours.

- Clan-based. Orcs divide themselves along tribal and clan based lines. Anyone able to unite several clans is a force to be reckoned with. Each clan has its own way of looking at the world. Orcs are by no means a monolithic society.

- Green tide. If the orcs ever do put aside their differences, there's very little that can stand in their way. The prospect of such a thing happening is a perpetual worry to their neighbours.

- Looters. Many orcs have a tendency to steal and adopt certain items or practices from their foes.

- Low magic. Few orcs have any aptitude for magic, and fewer still any interest in it. Aside from the lone tribal shaman and any apprentices he might have, there are almost no casters in orcish society.

- Fun. Above all else, I see orcs as an essentially fun race.

Finally, there's the issue of the map. I just don't see the weedy area allotted to Gwa'Aag on the map as being worthy of an orcish nation. Hence, I've taken the liberty of amending it into something that truly strikes fear into the hearts of its neighbours. As an added bonus, it also has more neighbours.

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Sun May 27, 2007 10:34 am

I'd like to see the orcs have a culture that is actually a culture, rather than being a race of blithering idiots. That's not to say that they shouldn't be a potential rampaging force of fury or whatever, but it would be nice to see a reason for it that is not "Og bored. Og go kill some puny hunams today."

Also: I think it's a bit much to go from their original admittedly small amount of territory (About the size of Rhode Island or something) to the largest nation/territory on Igala. I also remember something about us having a "don't use/make nations just to fill up the map" policy in place since before I even came here. Couldn't it still have the "green tide" thing if it were, say, only slightly larger than Nekonia?

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Unread postby Geesi » Sun May 27, 2007 11:49 am

As enjoyable as this would be, Teef would probably have some pretty atrocious exchange rates.

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Unread postby Kai » Sun May 27, 2007 11:56 am

You noted that clans each have different views of things. I'd like to see writeups for a couple of clans just as a sample, with the rest left open for GMs and players.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sun May 27, 2007 2:45 pm

Right. First off, if you mean "bright" as in "intelligent" or "smart" or the like, then they sound more like Charles Darwin is knocking at their door, ready to naturally select them out. Barbarians, contrary to many popular beliefs, would have to be particularly smart in order to be able to survive on their own, given the fact that survival in the wild is no walk in the bloody park. Uncivilized and unlearned, I would buy, but not "stupid". Stupid is left to village idiots. And to certain people I shall not name. Anyway, I digress.

I would support Bes' suggestion of the inclusion of an actual culture, not "fighting is good, especially pounding the snot out of pink things." The reason I enjoyed Dominic Deegan's rendition of orcs before the strip started to fail was because they had a culture. I am not saying that they cannot have a slight predisposition to violence and xenophobia--barbarians can believably have that, after all. Especially under specific conditions which I may mention later.

I would not particularly understand orcs being unilaterally "rule by the strongest" in nature; they still think, and I would imagine rulership of each tribe would most likely vary based on the specific tribe, rather than being a set racial constant. They would very clearly be divided up along tribal lines, I would agree. Likewise, I don't imagine all of these tribes having the exact same rulership method, so to speak.

No preference on level of magic. Most people would likely put them at low to medium-low.

Possibly more to come later.

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Unread postby Nakibe » Sun May 27, 2007 2:55 pm

Actually wouldn't mind an idea placed here. That territory is fine to me as long as the orcs contained within are at least somewhat nomadic. I mean, that'd also help for the crazy marauding idea. Without warning several orc tribes you THOUGHT were on the other side of their "nation", suddenly charge at you like mad. Quite unsettling for the neighbors.

I must agree with Bes, though... I want orcs with culture. With some sense of class. And if they go around kicking people's asses that's just something they do, you know?

EDIT : Just thought of something hilarious, considering my love of tweaking things. What if Orcs were HUGELY magically aligned, to the point where its actually rare that an orc ISN'T a mage of some sort. Just one problem: The only sorts of magic they readily learn and teach to themselves are Benediction magic. Some others learn some form of Shamanism/Druidic magic over time, and jealously guard this secret. It makes for a humorous sort of perception of Orcs that remains highly fight-oriented. Others may rarely EVER see Orcs when they're not under the influence of some spell.

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Unread postby Idran1701 » Sun May 27, 2007 8:02 pm

I'm not sure I entirely understand the logic behind the green tide. The rest of the description you've got there doesn't really say "they could take over the world if only they could work together!" to me, and I'd like to see your reasoning for that.

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Unread postby Kelne » Sun May 27, 2007 9:02 pm

Hn. Probably should've left myself more time to type up this post before work. Suffice it to say that I decided to focus on the basic question of 'what is an orc', rather than addressing the far more interesting issue of 'why'.

After all, if people don't agree on the what, the why becomes academic.

One thing I'd like to address is the question of how orc society functions without degenerating into a general free-for-all. I see orcs as having an almost instinctive grasp of how powerful another orc is in combat, and whether or not they can take him. Thus, they settle themselves into hierarchies without conscious thought. It's only if a particular orc is behaving above his station, or if there's an element of doubt as to who would prevail in a fight for a particularly coveted spot that a fight breaks out.

This is also the source of much of the strife that can occur with other races, as this sense gets completely thrown out of whack. It's impossible to tell whether you can beat a human just by looking at him, though most orcs surely think they can. The only way to be sure, of course, is a fight.

On the subject of the map, I think that if we're having white space for the sake of white space, it can be just as bad as filling up every corner of the map with new nations. I do see orcs as a nomadic culture, which means they need a fair amount of space to move about in. And truth be told, I imagine as long as there was empty land, the orcs would just keep expanding until something fairly substantial stopped them. The Shuman Mountains and the nation of Baron seem to qualify as substantial.

As well, giving Gwa'Aag a large geographical area allows it to be divided into sub-nations. Each with their own traditions, and possibly with radical differences in their outlooks on life. Any other nation you point to on the map may have its factions striving for dominance, but they're essentially one culture and one people.

Blah. More later.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Mon May 28, 2007 9:49 am

Idran1701 wrote:I'm not sure I entirely understand the logic behind the green tide. The rest of the description you've got there doesn't really say "they could take over the world if only they could work together!" to me, and I'd like to see your reasoning for that.


I also happen to share Idran's objection to the "green tide" concept. I will also point out that he has posted his more effectively than I could have managed mine.

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Unread postby Kai » Mon May 28, 2007 11:28 am

I'm just going to spew random crap about orcs to get my view on this out there in as disorganized and disjointed a fashion possible.

Nomadic=good. This gives them a reason to be highly clan-based with little need for any strong, overarching government. As long as each clan knows who's in charge, and as long as that person leads them to food and resources, all's well for them.

Orcs as comedic buffoons=bad. I dislike the idea of an orc's defining characteristic being how unintelligent they are. If the only thing that makes an orc an orc is that they're bumbling stinky green people... that's boring and adds nothing.

As an alternative, I would prefer that orcs be a little more frightening. Don't tell me orcs are scary and that I shouldn't wander around alone in Gwa'Aag. Show me what the hell might happen. There should be more to fear from Gwa'Aag than the body odor of its inhabitants. Adventurers won't shy away from Gwa'Aag unless they know damn well that the orcs will kick their asses, steal their stuff, take their women, kill them, and leave their bodies for scavengers.

We don't need to go all the way and make them the gorramn Reavers from Firefly, but (and I can't believe I'm saying this) their culture should still be "savage" from an outsider's perspective even though it needs to maintain some internal logic to it.

This is part of why I like rule by strength, but it needs to be supplemented with some notion of honor or pride. That way if you're an orc you've got a reason to strike out for yourself and take what you can. There's something orcs can value about themselves that other races or nations wouldn't have besides "puny pinky wimpy little girlyman humans can't break rocks with their teeth."

From the outside orcs should look savage and be a very intimidating race. To do otherwise cuts off their balls and ignores where we got them from (LotR). Perhaps most importantly, it also takes a lot away from PC orcs who have left their home culture to pursue something different. If all they've left behind is a culture of bumbling stinky manly-men, they haven't really accomplished anything.

From the inside, orcs need to have some regulating factor that gives them reasons to behave in certain ways aside from "if I don't do this the Alpha Male will kick my ass and take mah wimmins." I think strong notions of honor and racial pride would contribute that.

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Unread postby Kelne » Mon May 28, 2007 10:45 pm

It's a tricky thing about orcs. Either people go with the 'raging barbarians' route or the 'they're not all that bad, just misunderstood'. I tend to err towards the former in an effort to avoid making orcs just another unremarkable race, but I'd certainly like to see some kind of middle ground.

A revised list of orcish traits

- Barbaric, tough, but not stupid. On the other hand, they don't share human attitudes, and can be honestly perplexed by aspects of other societies.

- Nomadic, clan-based. Multiple distinctive clans.

- Strict honour code, supplementing rule by strength.

- Frightening. One should not be entering orc lands without a good reason, and neighbouring nations should maintain border forts as a matter of course.

- Magically inclined? Shaun's thoughts on widespread benediction magic intrigue me.

- Potential. If raised in a different society, an orc should be capable of being at least the equal of its peers. Otherwise, we're penalising anyone who decides to play an orc. In line with this, I daresay that all of a Gwa'Aag orc's defining characteristics are cultural, rather than being inborn.

Another question, what 'domestic' animals do the orcs employ? I see them as accomplished horsemen, and I daresay that more exotic mounts are a great status symbol. Wyverns come to mind.

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Mon May 28, 2007 10:54 pm

I like this much better, yes.

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Unread postby Spleen » Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 am

Making them accomplished horsemen gives them kind of a "Mongol hordes" feel that might be cool. I'd be leaning toward making the standard mount something more unusual, like war bulls. An orc on a horse? Scary. An orc on a bull? Terrifying. However, I don't know that it would be easy to train a bull to accept a rider. Perhaps they would be specially-bred for such.
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Unread postby Idran1701 » Tue May 29, 2007 9:18 am

If you want a monstrous type of mount, there's always your standard goblinoid mount, the warg. Yeah, orcs aren't exactly goblinoid, but it still might make for a good choice.

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Unread postby Seethe » Tue May 29, 2007 2:46 pm

Velociraptors.

Seriously. Decorate them with a few ornamental feathers and savage tribal warriors belong on them.

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Unread postby KingOfDoma » Tue May 29, 2007 5:40 pm

... I don't think so. Velociraptors would at least SEEM too skinny to support your average orc.

... what about a specialized rhino? Perhaps something related to the rhino in the same way the oliphaunt is related to the elelphant? It'd be neat to have something somewhat unique to Gaera...

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Unread postby Seethe » Tue May 29, 2007 6:47 pm

I probably should have done a little research, seeing as how velociraptors are also smaller than humans. Probably not as a mount then, but maybe they could use them as something like a war dog. But they really do look like they fit the orc theme perfectly.

Of course, horses used to be pretty small too. Might just need a few centuries of breeding...

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Tue May 29, 2007 7:24 pm

Destriers

They caried men in plate armor. They can carry an orcish barbarian. Also, in Igala, using horses instead of chocobos seems to be damned unique.[/url]

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Unread postby KingOfDoma » Tue May 29, 2007 7:44 pm

I mean unique as in unique in general. Something we can call our own...

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Unread postby Archmage » Tue May 29, 2007 8:02 pm

You know, even according to that wikipedia article, destriers are not a specific breed of horse, but a name for "the biggest and best horses." That really isn't a different suggestion from "horses."

I don't see any problem with orcs riding wargs; I think that to come up with a "truly unique" mount for orcs that would still be plausible would be difficult. In order to be a suitable mount for large groups of warriors, a creature should:

1) Be able to carry a heavy load, being a rider and probably his gear (9/10 times, this means a quadruped)
2) Be highly mobile OR be a weapon in itself (elephants, for example)
3) Be relatively common and easy to breed/care for

That doesn't mean an individual orc couldn't ride a wyvern or a dire hippopotamus or something, but it shouldn't be a common cultural trait. "KISS." We're going to strain plausibility if the common orcish mount is an albino pygmy elephant with hooked tentacles like a displacer beast or something.
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Unread postby Kelne » Tue May 29, 2007 8:16 pm

On the subject of velociraptors, I have to say no dinosaurs for the sake of dinosaurs. Igala has no other dinosaurs, and introducing a single species just so orcs can ride them strikes me as a bad idea.

Wargs are certainly traditional, but the problem there is that any carnivorous creature large enough to carry an orc is going to require a lot of meat. Enough so that if you want to mount every warrior in the tribe on a warg, you're going to run into difficulties keeping them fed.

In all, destriers certainly seem like the best option, and Bes is right in that they act to distinguish orcs from all those other nations which use chocobos.

The idea of a war rhino or something of that nature as a special mount for the seriously hardcore orcs appeals. I don't know that it necessarily has to be bigger than a normal rhino, though. Seeing a normal-sized rhino thundering down on you with a bloodthirsty orc on its back has to be plenty scary.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Tue May 29, 2007 8:56 pm

Dinosaurs fail. Stupid Ash tried to use dinosaurs a few times.

Thus exactly why they fail.
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Unread postby Seethe » Tue May 29, 2007 9:22 pm

I guess the particular breed of horse could be something unique to Gaera at least. Wouldn't really make sense to have a breed found on Earth roaming Gaera anyway unless interplanetary travel was involved.

Just no unicorns. Orcs + unicorns = no.

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Tue May 29, 2007 10:08 pm

I rebutt Seethe with these:

Moogles, Chocobos, Doma, Baron, Clangeddin, Lolth, Mab, Semuanya, Volt Cola, Mazoku, Yeti, Humans, Airships, The Elemental Crystals, Summoned Monsters and Summoners of Mist, Cold Iron, Dark Iron, Mithril, Starmetal, and many other things left unmentioned for the sake of time.

Yes, the Orcs could totally have their own breed of horse. But in no way does it not make sense for this setting to have things that emulate Earth, since it not only already has things emulating earth, but also Greyhawk, Planescape, Final Fantasy 1-6, Tatics and others in said series, Anime, ancient earth mythology both adapted and directly translated, and so on.

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Unread postby Kelne » Tue May 29, 2007 10:40 pm

Okay, points for the honour code. It seems like something that should be fleshed out. People should feel free to add their own thoughts here. Also, I'd think that there would be variations between clans, but a basic code generally agreed on by all orcs is the place to start.

- Bows are for hunting food, not people. To shoot an arrow at an orc is to say that you see him as nothing more than a beast to be put down. Although many orcs are actually quite competent archers, it's only in the very worst clan wars that arrows start flying.

Of course, other races have no such codes, and would much prefer to shoot an orc from a distance, rather than risk engaging him in melee. This has led to some rather nasty incidents, and orcs have a particularly deep-seated hatred for elves.

There's also a tendency on the orcs' part to say that if you treat them as food, you will be treated as food in return. Right down to cooking and eating you. It's a vicious cycle, really.

- One does not challenge the weak. If someone is obviously weaker than you are, there's no honour to be had in defeating them. Orcs are free to challenge those above them in the hierarchy, and such challenges are inevitably accepted, since to do otherwise would be to face a loss in honour.

Since high-ranking orcs don't have the time to deal with the challenge of every upstart youngster seeking to make a name for themself, challenges may be deferred to a second of intermediate rank, and frequently are. If the challenger can defeat the second, they are free to issue the challenge again.

- Men see to the prestige of the tribe, women to its survival. In many ways, orc women stand outside the honour codes of their society. They are expected to care for and protect the children, and to see to the tribe's food and shelter. They are expected to take up arms only if the situation is grim, and their status is largely tied to that of their husband.

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Unread postby Seethe » Tue May 29, 2007 11:46 pm

Bes: There's a difference between species and breeds. In all likelihood, orcs will never wind up riding anything other than "generic horses," but it might be questionable if the orcs just happened to breed Arabians or Clydesdales. Maybe it could be allowed, but it's still questionable.

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Unread postby Zemyla » Wed May 30, 2007 12:37 pm

I'm going to have to second Spleen on the War Bulls.

The best part is, having cows and bulls is very awesome because they're so versatile. You've got meat, milk, leather, bone weapons, sinews for bows, etc.

Also, if the bulls are loyal to their owner only, then that could be a good reason for some "weaker" members to survive. Sure, Morag may not be that tough, but he's got a huge herd of bulls, and it'll be a pain in the ass to try and take them from him.

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Wed May 30, 2007 5:45 pm

Editted: I have a reply, but for the sake of the thread I'll take it to IM.

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Unread postby Seethe » Wed May 30, 2007 6:46 pm

I could sign off on the war-bull idea. At the very least, we always have the power of "A Wizard Did It" to fall back on.

And speaking of wizards, I would like to know how the orcish honour code treats magic use.

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Unread postby Spleen » Wed May 30, 2007 8:49 pm

It depends on whether that "orcs are natural benediction mages" idea pans out, I guess.

Also: How honorable is mounted combat? What if your opponent is on the ground?

Orc religion: I'm seeing animal spirits being involved.
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Unread postby Idran1701 » Wed May 30, 2007 9:27 pm

Honestly, I really can't see bulls as a mount. I'm not sure why my suspension of disbelief breaks down on bulls and not wargs, but I think it might be mainly because wargs are so far different from wolves that wolves never being used as a mount doesn't hurt that possibility for wargs. While bulls...if cattle-like species were usable for mounts, as widespread as they are, wouldn't some culture at some point have used a bull, ox, auroch, buffalo, bison, any sort of creature of this kind as a mount?

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Unread postby Seethe » Wed May 30, 2007 10:30 pm

People don't ride bulls because bulls will kill you. An orc might be better at dealing with that problem. A shaman could easily be better at dealing with that problem.

I would expect that a warg's propensity to kill its would-be rider wouldn't be much if any less than that of a bull.

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Unread postby Idran1701 » Thu May 31, 2007 5:22 am

Yeah, but there has to be more to it than that. What about the other cattle species I mentioned? If it was just the violence of the bull that keeps it from happening, why not any of them? There's no real reason why they wouldn't be just as speedy as a bull, as far as I can see, though I freely admit I could be wrong on that. But they all have similar musculature compared to a bull, so that at least suggests a similar speed and endurance.

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Unread postby Seethe » Thu May 31, 2007 10:20 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Buffalo

Apparently it's possible to ride a water buffalo, at least. And, of course, we know that people ride bulls at rodeos, if only for short periods of time and against the animal's consent. I don't really know how long a person could ride a bull if the animal would allow it, though.

On the other hand, horses probably have better mobility than bulls. I'm not so sure a bull that isn't charging would actually move as fast as a horse at standard pace. Even charging, horses could very well be faster.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Thu May 31, 2007 2:03 pm

To be fair, the primary reason why rodeo bulls go just about everywhere has to do with pre-ride treatment. Namely with a constricting band that presses their genetalia to a point that is at least uncomfortable, if not painful. At least, that was what I've heard.


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