Risk! How to Conquer Nations in Philsys

RP-related discussion otherwise not covered in the Character Closet.

Should their be a Philsys for Countries/War?

Poll ended at Sat May 12, 2007 1:33 am

Good idea! That way we can handle wars more fairly.
0
No votes
Interesting idea... I'm not confident about it but it makes me think.
3
43%
Bad, bad, and bad! This opens up a can of worms best left sealed.
2
29%
Close but no cigar, love. Like communism this idea will only work on paper.
1
14%
o_o I have no idea either way. I'll see the end result and make my decison then.
1
14%
 
Total votes : 7

Nekogami
 
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Risk! How to Conquer Nations in Philsys

Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:33 am

<.< Did the title catch your attention? Good. I didn't see anything like this in the wiki so...if it's there hit me.

I'm not smart but I'm crazy...like a fox. So bear with me.

First--Why?

Why do we care? Why am I doing it? Why is the sky blue? I can answer all three of those questions but I'll only answer two. We care because Argovia is feeing the claws of imperialism by two nations: Alahana and the Dillidan Complex. I'm doing this because I want to advance Argovia as a location and I want to give each nation a fair chance at survival.

Who?

Who's going to to develop it? Me, with the help of ya'll. Who's going to determine how the battles are fought? Fuck if I know, you give me some input on that.

What?


What the hell is wrong with me? A lot.

When?

When there's time for the combatants to....um...combat.

Where? Board, probably so the whole world can see but I'm not opposed to chat either. Just bear in mind I'm only around really early or really late on weekdays but I'm free on weekends which seem to be filled up for everyone.

How?

Now it gets juicy. Here's what I was thinking....

HP = Population. A nation is considered conquered when it's army is gone and it's population is reduced by a third. Or if they say uncle.

AP= Army Points.

TP= Time points. Setting shit up takes time and if you want to convert your airship squad into ground troops of vice versa that's gonna take time.

MP=Money points. >:{ Wars cost money.

Now how does all this get determined?

*takes a deep breath* Now what I'm thinking, and believe me it hurt to do so, but I managed! Go me! What I was thinking was this.

Nations have levels. Nations have stats. And it goes a little something ilke this.

Stats:
POP= Population to the nearest thousand
MAG= Magical level of the nation. 0 being no magic, 6 being damn near everyone's a mage or can use simple magic.
STR= Added STR of Army (See later)
WIS= Education level of nation. Anything negative is primitive. 0 is a nation beginning to make tools and such. 10 is MAC/Marispolan level. Doma is a 5.
ECO= Economic level of the nation. 0 being no economy at all 10 being everyone is getting there money from you! Doma is...>.o Probably a 5. Nekonia is probably a 7. Valth is probably a 3. Terumahilana is probably a 2.

I'm not good at math but the Level would be determined by a countries STR WIS and ECO.

Now AP is probably the most complicated. Points spent on acquiring an Army would have to be determined. I'm thinking STR, HP, and LVL would be the determining factors. Once that's decided then AP would be the added strength of a nations Army.

Time points...I ...dunno. It sounds good in theory but I don't know that it'll work.

Money points = determined by ECO and WIS.

AAAAAAHOKAY enough theory. *waves hands to clear the air and her mind*

Costs:
Dragons > Mages (Because they're uppity) > Soldiers > Peasants
Airsihps (because they're damn hard to make) > Warships > Merchant ships






And that's all I have... Thoughts.

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Capntastic
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Unread postby Capntastic » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:44 am

I don't really like the idea of countries and such having stats. To me it seems like it'd hamper PC interaction with large scale events.

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Shinigori V2
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Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:47 am

As the United States loves to prove, you don't need to be invaded to lose a war, so population shouldn't factor into it.

There's also things like how militaristic the nation is in the first place; Barius or Valth would be better prepared than say Nekonia or someone who generally plays nice with the other kids.

Combining both, by example, Barius has very few people, but they're trained from childhood to beat the other kids up and take their toys and such. Military service is mandatory. Their soldiers are bloodthirsty, and they cheat, and have a general who actually knows what he's doing as their nation's leader.


Basically, waht I'm getting at, is that stats don't really make sense with nine out of ten countries.
Hey there! Can I give you a hand?

Nekogami
 
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Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:57 am

I don't really like the idea of countries and such having stats. To me it seems like it'd hamper PC interaction with large scale events.


Now what I'm thinking is that this would be only for situations where PCs wouldn't be involved and it'd be strictly nation v nation like in my situation so that I don't arbitrarily decide the fate of an entire continent. I don't think I could get a group to defend every nation especially since not a lot of people have any interest at all in Argovia.

I also don't think things like the Malachian War would fall under this since it was handled a bit differently. Like I said this would be a nation v nation with little to no PC interaction.

As the United States loves to prove, you don't need to be invaded to lose a war, so population shouldn't factor into it.

There's also things like how militaristic the nation is in the first place; Barius or Valth would be better prepared than say Nekonia or someone who generally plays nice with the other kids.

Combining both, by example, Barius has very few people, but they're trained from childhood to beat the other kids up and take their toys and such. Military service is mandatory. Their soldiers are bloodthirsty, and they cheat, and have a general who actually knows what he's doing as their nation's leader.


Basically, waht I'm getting at, is that stats don't really make sense with nine out of ten countries.


I see what you mean but I still think there might be a numerical way to signfy all of that so that nation on nation war is fair. There are a lot of factors that determine a war terrain, home-field advantage, and just plain dumb luck.

I still have the Risk idea in my head but even that I don't know how accurate it is. There's a lot of games that handle this very issue, I just don't know how they figure it out.

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Archmage
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Unread postby Archmage » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:25 pm

Nekogami wrote:Now what I'm thinking is that this would be only for situations where PCs wouldn't be involved and it'd be strictly nation v nation like in my situation so that I don't arbitrarily decide the fate of an entire continent. I don't think I could get a group to defend every nation especially since not a lot of people have any interest at all in Argovia.

There's nothing wrong with arbitrarily deciding the fate of an entire continent. When the outcome doesn't involve PCs at all, it arguably doesn't matter, so you can either decide completely at random or make your own choices based on what you think would be the coolest. Creating a complex mathematical system is, in this case, anathema to plot.

Nekogami wrote:I see what you mean but I still think there might be a numerical way to signfy all of that so that nation on nation war is fair.

Nation-on-nation war in a fictional setting doesn't have to be "fair." Since no one "owns" countries, no one has a stake in who "wins," unless you want to assign countries to players and turn it into a wargame (warning: this is going to be way more of a headache than you likely initially imagine).

Nekogami wrote:I still have the Risk idea in my head but even that I don't know how accurate it is. There's a lot of games that handle this very issue, I just don't know how they figure it out.

Risk is an incredibly abstract game and has very little to do with actual warfare; generally, wargames take one of two approaches. One is very abstract, like Risk, and the other is very precise and detailed, like traditional simulationist miniatures wargames where players spend days or weeks replicating the conditions of real-world battles. In terms of complexity, we're comparing d6 Chatsys to GURPS.

It comes down to what you want to do. Is it necessary (and are you willing to carry out the work required) to spend hours and hours to create a very complicated mathetmatical means of determining who wins what battle in Argovia (or wherever)? Or would it ultimately work just as well to use a very simple, largely random method, especially if the wars in question are not a competitive "game" between players?
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Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:53 pm

I see what you mean, Brian. I just feel like a awful godmoder but I guess it doesn't really matter what I do.

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Seethe
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Unread postby Seethe » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:30 pm

I just feel like a awful godmoder


GMs who use Freestyle aren't necessarily godmoders. Also, if nobody cares enough about a country to defend it, is there even any point in it existing in the first place?

I don't think this idea would exactly open up a can of worms since the existence of a system doesn't actually require that the system has to be used. However, for the purposes of creating a fictional setting, left-brained calculation is usually going to be quite inferior to right-brained creative thought anyway. Your own intuition will be just as good as, if not better than, any system for calculating the outcome of a war given the level of uncertainty involved in wars.

What I'm trying to say is, if you're just worried about being fair, just try to make the outcomes of the wars realistic. Also, you should probably get the okay from any nation's expert before you do anything to it. But that's about all it takes.

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Kai
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Unread postby Kai » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:14 pm

I think that it is interesting but not necessarily useful to set nations up with a system.

I mean, on the one hand it's entertaining to see where various nations stack up, militarily. On the other, it would be an excuse for a small handful of people to try and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their pet nations are The Most Powerful Warmongers In The Lands, Bitch. That's the only can of worms I don't want to open up.

I like the idea of breaking down the particular strengths and weaknesses of each nation, but I see this turning into a way for people who own nations to try even harder to outdick each other than they already do.

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My Convo with Sage

Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:36 pm

Der DWSage: So, let's see what we have for base skills...
Der DWSage: Melee Soldiers-
Magic Soldiers-
Ranged Soldiers-

Training-
Generals-
Movement-
Supplies-
Magic Aptitude-
Heavy Weaponry-

Techniques-Der DWSage: J4deninj44: Yeah. Should there be racial bonuses? I imagine a nation like Colena would be pert near impossible to conquer just because of the dragon population. In spite of it's small size.
Der DWSage: Hm...yes.
J4deninj44: *Drawing up Alahana's sheet as they go for sampling*
Der DWSage: I'm trying to figure out how to reflect that one.
J4deninj44: Here's a thought: The field of battle is determined at random. So Day vs Night, and what terrain are determined by a roll of the die. It sounds complicated but drow would excel at night and humans in the day. Any other factors such as weather could be decided by the combatants. Really the degree of difficulty on battles is determined by what the players want, just as it should be.Der DWSage:
J4deninj44: Also: Thoughts on determining initiative?
Der DWSage: o_o Ah...2d6 unless one is ambushing?
J4deninj44: Sounds fine to me!
J4deninj44: So far I have for Alahana (using Barius as a meter) TR=7; Movement = +1 to Jungle; Der DWSage:
Der DWSage: Stone Clan of Moogles...
Der DWSage: Melee Soldiers-0
Magic Soldiers-200
Ranged Soldiers-50

Training-(-5)
Generals-1 (Only two of them-Kumo and thier chief)
Movement-5
Supplies-2
Heavy Weaponry-0

Techniques-Magic, and lots of it.
Der DWSage: Also, Home turf advantage-their 'kingdom' is situated in a natural crater. So the only realistic way to take them out is to fly.
Der DWSage: They've got the one route of entry rigged to hell and back.Der DWSage:
J4deninj44: How about I make a moogle clan based on our model and we do a mock battle?
Der DWSage: It would be a lot easier if we found a way to actually deal damage. :{
J4deninj44: >:{ Oh snap.
Der DWSage: Let's see. It'd obviously be based on equipment, as well as your amount of soldiers and training...
J4deninj44: Training should be a multiplier....
J4deninj44: I think...
Der DWSage: *Ponders*
J4deninj44: Combined AT/PA of all units? Or some kind of average?
Der DWSage: ...An average, I'd say.


That's the gist of it.

Thoughts.

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Seethe
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Unread postby Seethe » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:07 pm

If you really want to go through with this, here is The Art of War for you. If you haven't read it yet, I advise it.

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Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:51 pm

Acutally I chatted with some folks about it and we've come to a better solution for my campaign.

Though Sage and Doug might continue do devise something squad base just for shits and giggles.

Also: Sunzi is godly.

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Unread postby VoidPointer » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:56 pm

I figured I'd weigh in on this issue, since I thought my input would be useful to this discussion.

Now, I don't really care whether a system for this kind of thing gets implemented or not, but I do care that any system that gets implemented is a good one. To that end, I decided to design a more realistic one, based on the first principles of warfare.

Note that this system should only really be used when there are PCs in the command structure. Otherwise, it does little but bore the GM.

Incidentally, I have read the Art of War.

The first thing an engineer does when designing a system is put down requirements and principles of design. So, I'll do that first.

Requirements:

Model large-scale warfare as accurately as possible while making the mechanics of gameplay as simple as possible.

Make the system relatively flexible, so that it can be used on many different roleplaying systems (e.g. DnD, Gurps, BESM...).

Principles:

Unit Separation: Warfare is not a straightforward affair. Rarely if ever do two nations pile up all their forces into a unit and march it at the enemy unit. Doing this is usually really dumb. Thus, the basic unit of the system shall not be the Army, but rather the Unit.

Command and Communications: Most armies do not have perfect communications abilities. Couriers get intercepted, signals get jammed, and at low technology/magic levels it may even be impossible to send messengers faster than the army moves. More than this, the Commander-in-Chief is not capable of micromanaging every unit in a large army. He can only talk so fast. Therefore, the CIC must secure a means of communicating with his generals in the field, and so on down the line.

Intelligence: Intelligence is important. Conmmanders are not automatically aware of the movements of enemies. Know Thy Enemy. Do you have spies? How do they communicate with you? Do you have codes? For a relatively high-tech (WW2 or higher) campaign, this tends to be handled at a high level, and can be intruiging in itself ("Erika" and the intel war).

Morale: No rolls are really necessary here, but few armies will go on a suicide mission at the drop of a hat. Determine he conditions under which a unit or army will desert or defect (if any), and keep them in mind.

Tactics is for the Commander to worry about, so we will not even go into it here. We are concerned with what is necessary and sufficient to describe an army, and I believe we have it here. Now for the description, which comes from these principles.

Speed of information: The speed at which the Commander's orders propagate across a given area. If you use radio, then this is the speed of light in your world. If you use messengers on horseback, it is the land speed of a horse. Keep in mind that certain problems may reduce the effective speed of these measures, even down to 0. (e.g. radio jamming, or an earthquake, or a giant cliff.)

Tactics/Strategy skills: Substitute whatever makes sense in your system. In GURPS, these skills are it. In DnD, there really isn't a good one. Try INT.

Commander: A Commander is any PC or NPC in command of any number of Units and/or Commanders. Consider the Commander a special type of Unit: it recieves orders and performs actions. The fact that some of its actions involve ordering other units around is not critical to how it functions. So remember: A commander is a Unit, but not all Units are Commanders.

The number of Units a Commander may command "on the fly" shall be determined by his Tactics skill. All the Units a Commander wishes to command on the fly must be within half an hour or so of him, at the speed of information. Any farther than this, and it becomes very difficult to react to developments on the field.

The number of Units a Commander may command on a day-to-day basis shall be much larger, and based on his Strategy skill.

Unit: Any number of people/ giant robots/ tanks/ dragons may be grouped together as a Unit. A Unit recieves orders and performs tasks as, well, a unit. It is not possible to order half of a Unit to do something without making the Unit into two Units. This may be difficult, depending on how stretched the command structure is.

A Unit is assumed to have a commanding officer of some sort, as well as enough basic command structure to follow its orders. If cut off from the primary command structure, a Unit will (generally) follow its last orders until the commander (who is assumed to be reasonably intelligent) believes they have been achieved, or that they have become irrelevant. At this point, the commander will do what he thinks is best, which usually, but not always, involves trying to restore communication with Command.

Units may occupy the same space as each other. Combine their Sizes, and assume that a proportional amount of each attack hits each part of the two Units. If one unit flies and the other does not, then do not do this.

If all of the members of a given Unit have the same amount of a given attribute, and it says to add them together, do yourself a favor and multiply.

Unit Damage: Add together the damage of all the members of the Unit. As members of the unit die, this number should go down accordingly.

Unit HP: Same deal.

Unit Attrition: Whenever the Unit HP falls by however many HP a member of the unit has, one member of the unit dies. subtract his Damage and Size from that of the Unit. (Alternatively, just always multiply these by current HP divided by max HP.)

Unit Size: Same deal. For ground units, this is spread out along the ground, but this need not be so for air units or submarines.

Hitting a Unit with Another: Roll 2d20. Divide by 40. Subtract .5 from the probability of one member of the attacking unit hitting a member of the defending unit. Subtract the first result from the second.

((2d20)/40)-(1-P(x)))

Multiply the Unit Damage by the number you got. Yes, it's complicated. You can replace it with a simpler system if you want. This system is designed such that half of your burst will hit however often one member of the unit would hit, and follows a bell curve.

Command and Communications: Communication is essential to warfare. A wise Commander will have a means of ensuring that his orders are being recieved. There are many methods of giving orders, but these need not be discussed here, except to say that the GM must pay close attention to the speed of information. Keep in mind that a messenger is unlikely to be able to sneak through (or in fact anywhere near) an enemy Unit of any appreciable size.

//Intel soon


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