RPGWW

Part the first:

Tai has taken the time to update the Rpgww Wiki with information about Gaeran Mazoku. Most definitely worth a read:

http://mysidia.org/rpgww/Mazoku


Part the second:

After talking with Tai, Shaun, and Kai about it, we may have a bit of a lore problem with their origin.

For awhile, we've been taking parts of a spam RP as partially canon for their origin. One of my characters, Daniel, was used to make the first Gaeran Mazoku. It was a combined effort of Taiar and Nakibe working together.

However, given the lore for the Gaeran Gods, Nakibe doing something like this doesn't make much sense. Especially since doing so should have very dire consequences for our little chaos deity.

So, after talking about it a bit, we're not 100% sure where to go with it. We agreed that Nakibe should still play a big role in their presence on Gaera. How he'd go about that is where we're stuck.

I have no problem with Dante, the Daniel/Mazoku characters spawned from this, being retconned to fix things. I can always come up with another backstory to explain his existence. This isn't the first time I've had to patch up the spammy aspects of my characters, as people may remember from Daniel's Final Fantasy fan days, heh.

So, opinions?

Proposal:

Wouldn't Nakibe be a little prone to being chaotic, himself? Regular characters do things "OOC" from time to time, just like you might be told 'you're not yourself today.'

If a reason for his involvement can be scrounged up, then why not work in the consequences? Ishtar's been needin' to lay the smack down these last few millennia, anyway, it's nothing too new.

This is assuming a bit, that Shaun is alright with The Stuffs(TM) occurring to Nakibe. But there ought to be some flexibility in making it work--particularly as it occurred long ago, ICly, allowing some of the consequences to be 'past events' if need be.

It's also possible that Naki may not get in too much trouble because he's essentially undone what he did, and to my knowledge... despite the fact that Stephan technically made a deal with him to persuade him to do so... Nakibe hasn't collected on that.

Maybe that'll be his saving grace this time around.

Another thing I wanted to toss in for consideration is that deities do get some dispensation to do things for their followers. For example, a god can't just up and kill people for no reason, but if one of his followers wants to make a deal with that in the terms... the god gets more leeway.

If Nakibe really wanted to lawyer his way out of being punished, he could use his collaboration with Taiar. Perhaps because he was working with a mortal who could potentially make a good follower, the act of making Dante in Daniel could be seen as technically within Nakibe's rights.

I don't know how much luck he'd have with a defense like that, but it's certainly an option that'd occur to him. The "my followers asked me to do it" excuse.

Also, one note on Mazoku in Gaera: Nakibe is not the only one with an interest in such creatures. Their chaotic nature would obviously be endearing to him, but a creature who feeds on negative emotion would also be technically in Nikumu's jurisdiction.

I think there may be a small problem with the idea of Nakibe lawyering his way out of something. :D

This brings up an interesting point, and that is "Did the gods [of a certain race] exist before that race?" Basically, what I'm asking is, did Nekogami create the Nekojin, or did she come into existance because the Nekojin imagined some sort of deity that created them?

If the former is true, then that means Naki couldn't really get into a lot of trouble for essentially "creating" a new race, especially since he had a "mortal" spearheading the campagin. There's past precedent where races were made by gods.

Of course, Naki probably wouldn't fathom to put it that way, being chaotic, but some of the more lawful gods would dispute this point.

Dragons were created as/before Ryuugami, which I considered at the time to be an exception for the lesser gods. My idea of creation at the time was that the lesser gods were created after Ishtar/Primaer and before world/s.

I'm still kinda of the opinion that the Dante bit needs to be retconned or re-thought out.

Making a new race, I could see. I vaguely recall hints that Nakibe may have been involved in making shadowdragons, for example. The precident definitely exists to explain that bit.

The sticking point here, for me anyway, is him using Dan doesn't make sense. There's the fact Dan worships Ishtar, and I can't think of a plausible reason for him to agree to this in any way shape or form. I'm fairly sure doing something like that to someone else against their will is a huge no-no.

Another thing to consider is, how important is this event? If you took the whole Dante thing out, you could assume Arnast made the first Gaeran Mazoku instead. The only way I could see that story being important is, were other Mazoku made by Nakibe or Taiar after Dante? Or was he it, and Taiar / Arnast just lived lives on Gaera until the war happened, and Arnast got to making the mazzy family?

The event isn't too terribly important, but I decided to include it in the Mazoku Wiki page because it was a slice of history involving Mazoku that I remembered quite well. However, I don't believe that it needs to be included and could very easily be Retconned out of existance.

As Dave has said, if we took it out it would just be assumed that Arnast went through with the first Mazoku creation, and the first large scale birthing of them as well. Somebody was saying something about Jeridan, though I don't know anything about that topic. The Malachias War Wiki Entry makes note to point out that Nakibe did have his hand involved with those sinister deeds though...

Taiar wrote:The event isn't too terribly important, but I decided to include it in the Mazoku Wiki page because it was a slice of history involving Mazoku that I remembered quite well. However, I don't believe that it needs to be included and could very easily be Retconned out of existance.

I don't see any problem with retconning it out of the canon--especially as it was in a spam RP and the RPer of the character in question (Hi Dave!) is asking for it--but I'd like the story to be kept on the page, maybe under a header of "spam origins" or somesuch. Ala what Dave has done with the spammy origins of Dan and Stephan Hyral.

If Dave wants to retcon the whole Dante business, that's his prerogative, but Stephan's hatred of Nakibe has come up a lot, and it might be helpful to think of an alternative explanation in that case.

To bring up again that Nikumu would have an interest in Mazoku, and combine that with the fact that you can't really punish a deity except by denying them followers... perhaps a good slap-on-the-wrist punishment for Nakibe for making a Mazoku in one of Ishtar's followers is that he doesn't get to have them in his jurisdiction anymore. They could be given to Nikumu as a punishment to Nakibe for abusing his priveleges where they're concerned.

Just a thought. Dunno what the rest of you think.

As for Jeridan: At my personal request, Shaun went ahead and mazoku'd him. There's a log of it in my webspace ( http://besyanteo.rpgww.org/Logs/JerMazoku.htm ). It was mostly on a whim. Anyway. Jeridan was particularly religous before that, so most deities aren't going to be concerned about him. I originally wanted Arnast to be involved, but I didn't want to take Jeridan out of the Capital to do it. ... As it is, I ended up regretting it becasue ratehr than adding to his character, I found myself making him angst about things more and more. I eventually had it cured a few years later, when I found a convenient means. The RP in question ahsn't technically taken place yet. It's sort of post dated, or whatever? Anyway, that's Jeridan and his mazoku business.

Kai: Believe me, I will figure out some other way to explain Dante and/or Naki's involvement with the siblings. For one, as you said, I'm quite fond of Stephan's burning hatred for the Chaos God. That, and the circumstances making him Naki's little b#$ch, so to speak.

There's also another thing I'll have to clear up, if it makes a different for anything being discussed. While I wasn't 100% happy with it, there was an RP I ran with Aya, Choark and Redfox awhile back involving all this.

Originally, both Dan and Stephan were changed during that spam RP. The difference being, Dan's (Dante) was more of an annoying tricksters, while Stephan's was a sadistic homicidal nut. The RP I ran involved them trying to stop the Mazoku influence that was put in Stephan, when it got out of hand and was close to completely taking him over. They manage to get it out, oddly enough, thanks to Dante absorbing it into himself, after the group kicks the living crap out of it. It was a few months after that where we had the RP involving Stephan's deal with Naki, and freeing Dan of Dante for good, out of Stephan's fear Dan would end up like he almost did.

Anyway! Just some background on what I had so far if it makes a difference for anything / gives some ideas.

And to avoid sounding like a complete self-centered a$$:

I do like the idea about Nikumu getting them out of punishment to Nakibe. Part of me wonders, though, why she'd give them over to someone like Nikumu, who's known for causing trouble himself.

Nikumu tends to stay within his boundaries at least.

He's the god of hate, so of course he's an ass. But, he's an ass because it's in his nature and jurisdiction to be. Any trouble he causes is well within his rights as our resident god of assholery, and if anyone should have guardianship of a race that feeds on suffering, it seems most appropriate to put them in Nikumu's domain.

And Nakibe doesn't like him. :H

...So did we come to a decision? Because as it is...the little snippet is chilling out on the Wiki and I'm wondering if I should move it around to another less-canon section of the page...

I don't know. The Nakibe-Nikumu transfer can be noted if no one objects, but I can't speak for any Dante-related things.

We'll figure something out for Dante. If it's any help, in my head I've usually had their origin go something like this:

Aya is concerned about Taiar being missing.
Daniel agrees to help find him!
*Insert some reason Stephan would care or show up. May or May Not involve Daniel's Righteous Fury*
Daniel finds Taiar.
Daniel find Taiar talking to someone, he may/may not realize is Nakibe at the time.
*Insert Plausible reason for Daniel to be experimented on!*
Nakibe is curious about experimenting with Mazoku!
Not 100% clear on how they work, he decides to use a technique from the past to try manipulating their form.
He recalls his past efforts to make a hybrid race, making ShadowDragons with Ryuugami. (I think that's cannon, isn't it?)
Nakibe mixes in aspects of ShadowDragons, to cover the aspects of the Mazoku he can't quite duplicate properly.
DANTE GET =O
*Insert plausible reason to get Stephan dragged into all this*
Feeling a bit more confident, this time Nakibe goes the whole 9 yards.
Mazoku Stephan is made!
*Stuff happens!*
Aya finds the 4 of them, is very pissed!
*insert Dragon King Sword /Dragon's Bane duel, because that was friggin cool and still is dammit =(*
Nakibe, for some reason I'm not 100% clear on, changes Daniel and Stephan back to normal. I've always assumed, as I don't view Taiar as a bad person (maybe a big pain in the ass =P), that he may have joined Aya in asking Nakibe to change the brothers back.
The brothers appear to be fine!
Unfortunately for Naki, as he's still a noob at the whole Mazoku thing, didn't realize the purge was incomplete. Or did he.... >_>

And that's pretty much what I've been running with up to this point. =X