Bestiary

RP-related discussion otherwise not covered in the Character Closet.

Would it be beneficial to RPGWW to have a Bestiary for RPing?

Poll ended at Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:47 pm

Yes.
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No.
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Total votes : 11

Nekogami
 
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Bestiary

Unread postby Nekogami » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:47 pm

I think so... but I'm crazy.

I love using monsters, personally so to me a Bestiary would be a ton of fun to use and abuse.

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:46 pm

I should note that we started to make one a while back. It was for PhilSys! It should sitll be around here, somewhere.

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Kai
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Unread postby Kai » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:50 pm

Bes speaks truth. Bes also mentions something that reminds me of something else.

I think Brian listed a couple of sample PS monsters on the wiki. I think it would be great to expand that for the same reason that having pre-made level one NPCs is great. Saves time in case CI turns into pseudo-plotted turns into Philsys combat.

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Unread postby Archmage » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:08 am

Kai wrote:I think Brian listed a couple of sample PS monsters on the wiki. I think it would be great to expand that for the same reason that having pre-made level one NPCs is great.

I did! It is located here. There aren't too many monsters up, just a handful that I dug out of old notes and edited a little to fit more recent PS revisions.

Thanks to the freely editable nature of the wiki, it would be perfectly fine for people to add to the list and include more stuff. The one thing that I would like is for people to try to keep the formatting consistent unless someone can think of a better way to organize the sheets into tables, in which case they are free to re-organize the entire page to suit that style.
Image

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Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:58 pm

Oh, Snap. That totally needs to be added to. With some hardwork, we'll have a full blown bestiary!

I'll brainstorm myself on beasts.

Anything we need to know Philsys-wise?

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:03 pm

Hm. Not useful for most RPers, but PC summoners and GMs in general would definitely find it a convenience, I'd argue.

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Some additions for Critique

Unread postby Nekogami » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:05 pm

Edit: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersAtoZ.html
Dire types: Predominantly in the northern and mountainous regions of Igala.

Dire Wolf
HP: 75
AT/PA: 4/12
INIT:5 + 2d6
MBLOCK: 5
MISSILE EVADE:16
AC:14
MOVE:10

Bite: 1d6+10

Dire Bear
HP: 147
AT/PA:9/23
INIT:1+2d6
MBLOCK:20
MISSILE EVADE:1
AC:17
MOVE:8

Bite: 2d6+15
Scratch:2d6+10

Dire Badger
HP:40
AT/PA:2/11
INIT: 2d6+3
MBLOCK:10
MISSILE EVADE:7
AC:16
MOVE:6

Burrow: 10ft
Claw: 2d6+2
Bite:1d6+1[url][/url]

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Legendary Beast

Unread postby Nekogami » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:01 pm

Bamfs the Great Foam God
HP:1470
AT/PA: 35/0
AC:30
INIT: 2+2d6
MBlock20
MISSILE EVADE: 0
MOVE SPEED: 100mph (Swim)

Bite: 50 + 10d10

Skills: Swallow Whole

The Sinker, Deep Maw, or the Great Dire Shark, all call him different things but Bamfs is surely a legend. The thrust of his mighty tail whips up waves of foam, hence the name Great Foam God. His sprimary died consists of whales, Giant Squid, sea dragons, and whole shoals of fish. Most ships sunk by Bamfs are sunken by this enormous dorsal fin or tail as he surfaces, though he only does so, once a week and always without warning.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:03 pm

BAMFS!!!

...poor scared Deeum. XP



Anyway, I might make stats for Gaeran Wyverns(Northern/northeastern Shumans); I've got ideas for those.

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Unread postby Nekogami » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:29 pm

One day...just one day, I'd like to see theoretically, how many PCs it would take to take down a Legendary beast.

I would like Hakaril to be on that team and at least one celestial for healing. AT LEAST that. Oh and Dia for summoning...

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:42 pm

Uh, infinite, technically. The AC, AT/PA, and MBLK are absolutely impenetrable by ANY stretch of the mind.

Clarification: Barring any sort of magical enhancement from equipment or spells, the theoretical maximum AT or PA (not both) is 76. 270 PA simply means that they'll ubercritfail. ...likewise, anyone would effectively get megacritted. And explode into tiny little PC giblets, never to be seen again.

Dodge is literally nothing, but few weapons can actually break that DR. Definitely nothing short of artifact or artillery.

And on magic, maximum base MATK equates to 58. So the same can be stated on the MATK/MBLK deal. Ultimately, such a thing is literally of a divine level, statistically, meaning that raw, sheer numbers mean nothing.

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Unread postby Nekogami » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:21 pm

Editted for Godmoding!

He should be more manageable now.

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Unread postby Seethe » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:44 pm

The new version would be fairly easy to take out. You would just need a malediction mage to keep it cramped up while Gnashrak, End, Cardinal, and some sailors hack it to pieces. Actually, this one might need a few malediction mages to reduce the chances of spell failure allowing disaster.

For the original version, I would contend that numbers actually would be the key to success, though I doubt that the combination of PCs that would be required actually exists. What would be needed would be a massive number of people dedicated to attacking and an even more massive number of supporting spellcasters dedicated to enhancing the attackers' AT or MATK to a high enough level. The number of characters would also be increased by the need for cannon fodder to appease the Swallow Whole attack, assuming that attack is meant to take out a large number of targets at once.

Of course, if we were to bar enhancement spells it would be impossible, but I really see no reason to do that since, unlike artifacts, enhancement spells can be cast without the GM's divine intervention.

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:11 am

This is assuming it does stupid things like sit there, of course, and let itself get beaten on. It already has the two advantages of being massive and water-native. These two effectively mean that it cancels out the normal disads of being huge through the fact that the water allows it so much more mobility. Note that projectiles can't be fired through the water, and a degree of magical effects would be altered; either for better (Electric- and cold-based) or worse (Heat- and kinetic-based). So what're they going to do? Swim after it?

...if they're stupidasses, maybe.

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Unread postby Seethe » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:53 pm

They could just have a bunch of malediction mages ready to paralyze it when it comes in to attack, eliminating the advantage of its mobility. Or they could hit the thing with enough stat-reducing spells to take one of the creature's stats down below -10, which as I recall would result in its immediate death. Or they could hit it with a single Aquatic Motion spell (rank 4 spatial magic), causing the creature to fall to its death on the ocean floor.

If they were pursuing the creature and it wasn't coming to them, the benediction mages could just buff up their swimming speed with Haste to whatever is needed to overtake the thing.

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Unread postby Kai » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:17 pm

Okay. So according to Seethe this monster is not "legendary" enough because if you have an army of mages, some of whom are dedicated to debuffing it and some of whom are dedicated to buffing the additional set of people who are there to attack it.... *deep breath* ...in this case you could defeat it.

Name one monster that could not be defeated by an army of well-prepared mages and warriors and I'll show you a monster that isn't fit for an RP encounter. I agree that such a monster would be "legendary" because no PC is going to be fighting it. Not reasonably. If an army of PCs would fail, there's no point in using that as a combat encounter.

That said, I believe an army is exactly what you would need for this creature. It seems epic enough to me. With one attack (that will hit just about anyone or anything) it would deal an average of 100-something damage. It also has more HP than God. Its MBlock isn't fantastic, but it's good enough to cause a problem for most lower-level mages. Its missile evasion sucks, which is good, but basically relies on having an entire ship full of spellcasting Valthi whalers wielding guns, harpoons, and powerful offensive magic.

All in all, I kind of like it.

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Unread postby Seethe » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:28 pm

I never said it "wasn't legendary enough." I just said it wouldn't be immune to large numbers of enemies without the aid of artifacts or divine intervention.

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Unread postby Kai » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:34 pm

"The new version would be fairly easy to take out."

The point of my post: I disagree.

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Re: Some additions for Critique

Unread postby pd Rydia » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:42 pm

That is a sexy, sexy link. Thank you!

Also, Seethe is acting dangerously like Nev--contentiousness is all well and good if it leads somewhere worthwhile, but no one's happy when things devolve into a semantics debate.

:science: Now, I have no idea how to work philsys numbers! But I know one way to find out how things work! Coliseum, peeps?

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Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:00 pm

They could just have a bunch of malediction mages ready to paralyze it when it comes in to attack, eliminating the advantage of its mobility. Or they could hit the thing with enough stat-reducing spells to take one of the creature's stats down below -10, which as I recall would result in its immediate death. Or they could hit it with a single Aquatic Motion spell (rank 4 spatial magic), causing the creature to fall to its death on the ocean floor.

If they were pursuing the creature and it wasn't coming to them, the benediction mages could just buff up their swimming speed with Haste to whatever is needed to overtake the thing.


I severely doubt that. First off, you're assuming that it would manage to, say, let them superbuff. Ever. Or that it would always be on the surface, for that matter. Or that it would have to be easily visible below the surface if it was in range to strike in one round.

God forbid, Seethe, that you allow a GM to take common sense into the equation. God forbid, Seethe, that you, as a GM, would take common sense into the equation; playing strictly by the rules leads to problems from people who follow the same ways of thinking; you know, like Zemyla. A single Aquatic Motion spell would, more likely not than work; it would be assumed that sheer SIZE would be taken into consideration here. Many spells' effects tend to assume a man-sized target, understand. An ad-hoc decision based on the sheer size (~3x that of a blue whale) would see things working MUCH differently, especially considering that this thing gets its own size category.

Also, this makes me actually consider something else that I haven't before; rules on stacking/overlapping of benediction/malediction spells. In particular, I fail to see how temporal alteration spells would manage to stack, period. Your haste tactic would ultimately fail, given the fact that humans (and by proxy, many humanoids) are extremely unfit for water--and are slow, clumsy swimmers by nature.

Really, size alone would be enough of a factor that, quoth Kai, defeating it semi-reliably

relies on having an entire ship full of spellcasting Valthi whalers wielding guns, harpoons, and powerful offensive magic.


...yeah. Given how Valth is, and what they do with spellcasters, that would literally be IMPOSSIBLE, for the count. XP

Also note that with certain exceptions from RP to RP, the average NPC is < level 1. Without superoptimized stats. It's unlikely that you're going to manage to lock something like that down like that. ESPECIALLY given the HP on that thing. With an excess of 1200 HP, an AT that is hellishly difficult to beat, and damage that can be assumed to be both multitarget and OHKO under most cases, this is indeed far from easy.

As for the previous version, it's a stupid assumption that you could somehow manage to fit enough suitable casters on a ship to manage to buff damage, defenses, and whatever else to a high enough level in time. Much less maintaining it.

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Unread postby Seethe » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:52 pm

I haven't been talking about the new version. The army I've described was required for the version that existed before it was de-godmodified.

<s>The new version wouldn't require a whole army at all. The method I described earlier involving Gnashrak, Cardinal, and End was just a joking reference to an encounter they've had involving a monster with 500 HP, which was defeated far more easily than I had expected, but this creature could be comfortably dealt with by a party of six mages capable of casting Aquatic Motion and would only have to be hit by this spell once without really the need for any buffs. A character would be capable of casting Aquatic Motion at level one if he or she took four ranks in Spatial Magic. The monster's initiative is low enough that the mages might actually manage to cast this spell before the monster could even attack, but even if it did take one of them out first they would still have five chances to hit it before its next move.

Dealing with this creature would require specific preparations, and a ship caught unprepared would be in trouble, but anyone who goes chasing a dangerous target really should consider preparing themselves beforehand.

Now, it would become another matter entirely if you were to patch up the creature's most serious weak-points with immunities. Leave only moderate weaknesses that can be exploited to give the opposition a decent chance, such as the low Missile Evasion and MBlock, but take measures against ruinous weak points like Aquatic Motion and vulnerability to uber-debuffing. Vulnerability to paralysis may be kept or tossed, depending on the strength of the force that's being sent against the creature.</s>

Edit: The previous two posts were entered while I was still working on this one. Editting in progress.

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Unread postby Seethe » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:18 pm

I wish editting a post would still bump a thread so that I wouldn't have to double-post.

Also, Seethe is acting dangerously like Nev--contentiousness is all well and good if it leads somewhere worthwhile, but no one's happy when things devolve into a semantics debate.


What's the point of having semantics if you don't debate them? I'm just having fun with speculation here, anyway. I assumed I wasn't the only one just having fun, but am I?

Now, I have no idea how to work philsys numbers! But I know one way to find out how things work! Coliseum, peeps?


But... but... Coliseums are on land, so the giant fish would collapse as soon as the fight started!

Seriously, though, sounds like a good idea to me.

I severely doubt that. First off, you're assuming that it would manage to, say, let them superbuff. Ever. Or that it would always be on the surface, for that matter. Or that it would have to be easily visible below the surface if it was in range to strike in one round.


Given that you're allowing us to have an infinite number of mages, and I quote, "Uh, infinite, technically," there could also probably be a few scryers or psychics around to detect the thing and communicate its location to the rest of the army by telepathy. Also, the only way it could keep them from superbuffing is to kill them all at once. I'll get to this in a minute.

God forbid, Seethe, that you allow a GM to take common sense into the equation. God forbid, Seethe, that you, as a GM, would take common sense into the equation; playing strictly by the rules leads to problems from people who follow the same ways of thinking; you know, like Zemyla. A single Aquatic Motion spell would, more likely not than work; it would be assumed that sheer SIZE would be taken into consideration here. Many spells' effects tend to assume a man-sized target, understand. An ad-hoc decision based on the sheer size (~3x that of a blue whale) would see things working MUCH differently, especially considering that this thing gets its own size category.


Yes, common sense strictly forbids a massive circle-casting by a legion of mages at once, vastly enhancing the power of the spell so that it can take effect against such a large creature. Also, common sense clearly states that a GM should be out to kill the party by making the battle impossible to win.

This objection is, however, viable against the six-member party I described above unless the GM rules otherwise.

Also, this makes me actually consider something else that I haven't before; rules on stacking/overlapping of benediction/malediction spells. In particular, I fail to see how temporal alteration spells would manage to stack, period. Your haste tactic would ultimately fail, given the fact that humans (and by proxy, many humanoids) are extremely unfit for water--and are slow, clumsy swimmers by nature.


See, this debate did lead to something productive.

If we forbid stacking, the haste tactic won't work. However, if we allow stacking, I don't see why the haste tactic should fail. Sure they'll continue to swim slowly and clumsily, but the distortion of time will still allow them to cover much more area in much less time.

The way a temporal alteration spell would stack is probably by increasing the degree of the alteration. If one haste spell changes the speed of time for the target by a little bit, a second haste spell will further that change, and so on. I'm not so sure that this actually silly, though I'll concede that it might be.

Also note that with certain exceptions from RP to RP, the average NPC is < level 1. Without superoptimized stats. It's unlikely that you're going to manage to lock something like that down like that. ESPECIALLY given the HP on that thing. With an excess of 1200 HP, an AT that is hellishly difficult to beat, and damage that can be assumed to be both multitarget and OHKO under most cases, this is indeed far from easy.


I'm not sure what you just said. Clarify?

As for the previous version, it's a stupid assumption that you could somehow manage to fit enough suitable casters on a ship to manage to buff damage, defenses, and whatever else to a high enough level in time. Much less maintaining it.


Nobody said there had to be just one ship. Could be a whole fleet. And this is where I'll pick back up the point I left off on earlier: the assumption that the creature could kill the entire army in one attack. If there were only one ship, it could possibly do that. But if there are a great number of ships, it couldn't swallow them all at once. Furthermore, as long as the size of the creature is finite, it will not be able to swallow an entire potentially infinite army all at once.

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Unread postby Idran1701 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:08 pm

Seethe wrote:I assumed I wasn't the only one just having fun, but am I?


No offense, but it sounds like it from the way the debate's going. Though this is from an outside perspective.

I mean, you're debating if a creature that isn't a god can be killed by an infinite number of mages. Heck, an infinite number of mages probably could kill a god. So what's the point how it's done? It's already a ludicrous thought experiment that wouldn't really tell you anything useful anyway.

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Unread postby Seethe » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:20 pm

The quoted question was rhetorical. Point is, people are being too snippy.

Anyway, what you say is basically my point. An infinite number of mages could probably kill a god, at least if the god isn't totally omnipotent. However, a suggestion was made to the contrary.

Though, by "an infinite number of mages," I actually mean a "finite number of mages that is as large as one desires." In other words, Nama stated that numbers wouldn't have any effect on the battle, and I hold that they would.

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Re: Some additions for Critique

Unread postby Nekogami » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:26 pm

pd Rydia wrote:
That is a sexy, sexy link. Thank you!

Also, Seethe is acting dangerously like Nev--contentiousness is all well and good if it leads somewhere worthwhile, but no one's happy when things devolve into a semantics debate.

:science: Now, I have no idea how to work philsys numbers! But I know one way to find out how things work! Coliseum, peeps?


COLISEUM!! IT NEEDS REVIVING!

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Unread postby FF Fanatic 80 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:32 pm

This all does actually bring up a good point, or potential point for Philsys.


Suppose, as an example, Stephan was trying to cast a fire spell on a creature. But, oh no! He isn't powerful enough to penetrate its magic resistance.

But wait! The blue mage of shyness is also here, and tries a fire spell. But oh snap! Midoku isn't powerful enough to penetrate it's magic resistance either.

Hmm, but wait again. What if the two of them try to combine their casting efforts, and cast a spell together?


Is this something that would be a good idea? Or do rules for doing something like this already exist in philsys? (IE: either a normal mechanic or something you'd need ranks of a skill for?)

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Unread postby Besyanteo » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:50 am

Coliseum:

Sounds like fun.


Arguing about how this thing might or might not be killed, and meta-arguing about the arguement about how this thing might or might not be killed, and meta-arguing about that, and any ungodly iterations beyond that:

Not sounding like fun.


GAME TIME?

Edit: If it's board based, I'd happily GM it, assuming Amanda doesn't want to herself. Are people bad enough adventurers to get on an out of character boat, and fight Amanda's beast?!

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Unread postby Seethe » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:01 am

I'm definitely up for some Coliseum. I'm hoping it's board-based for convenience.

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Unread postby Kelne » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:33 am

Sounds good to me. In the interests of giving our legendary shark a run for its money, I will quite happily volunteer the highest levelled character in my arsenal. Secure in the knowledge that, being imaginary, he has no way of exacting terrible vengeance upon me.

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Unread postby Nekogami » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:10 pm

Besyanteo wrote:Coliseum:

Sounds like fun.

GAME TIME?

Edit: If it's board based, I'd happily GM it, assuming Amanda doesn't want to herself. Are people bad enough adventurers to get on an out of character boat, and fight Amanda's beast?!



Bes! Do that damn thang! WOO WOO! I'd be happy to have you GM Bamfs' battle.

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Unread postby Archmage » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:58 pm

I actually have a system, as it were, for converting monsters from D&D 3.0/3.5 to Philsys, if you're interested. Since you linked the SRD and were talking about dire animals, I assume you might be! You can apply a lot of these rules directly as long as you're willing to kludge things a little; I'll explain in more detail.

HP: A standard humanoid in PS has 55 HP, whereas a standard humanoid commoner in D&D has about 3. This does not mean that you need to multiply all HP values by 13 to scale them; instead, consider how much more or less durable something should be than a humanoid. My rule of thumb is that most humanoids are going to have between 50-80 HP at "low" levels. This includes more "exotic" humanoid creatures that aren't unnaturally tough.

Monsters are harder to scale directly because the way HP works in D&D is goofy; unlike Philsys, most creatures and players will have lots of it and be expected to absorb hits with high HP instead of simply dodging them. As a result, it's usually easier to work from reference benchmarks than it is to use any scalar value, so:

Small animal (cat, dog): 20 HP at most.
Humanoid: 50-80 HP.
Medium-sized animal (wolf, panther): 60-100 HP. A big cat like a tiger is going to be on the high end, a more fragile creature on the low end. This also works for other creatures that are similar in size and durability.
Large animal (bear, elephant): 100-200 HP, easily. This also works for other creatures similar in size and durability. An owlbear, for example, would probably have 120-150 HP.
Giant: 200+ HP. Pretty much anything that has 100+ HP in D&D is going to have sufficient HP if you just double or triple the listed value.
Dragon: Depending on age and strength, this is going to vary a lot. Baby dragons might have about 80 HP, adults somewhere around 300-400, and the oldest of wyrms HP exceeding 600 (don't forget that these guys are going to have natural AC, too).

For some creatures, such as golems, consider the fact that they probably rely on natural hardness (AC) as opposed to being able to take lots of damage that breaks through that hardness. A steel golem might only have 150 hit points, but have an AC of 30+ against weapon attacks.

To give you an idea of things with ridiculous HP, aside from dragons:

Whale: ~300 HP. Same HP, but less armored than a dragon, and likely less skilled in a fight.
Purple Worm: 400-600 HP.
Titan: 500+ HP.
Tarrasque: At least 2,400 HP, plus natural regeneration of around 60 HP per round and a fuckload of AC, likely between 60 and 80.

Init, Speed: Either derive these from ability scores or just fudge it.

AT/PA: Big creatures should have lower PA because they can't dodge as well, smaller creatures should have higher PA (but fewer hit points). Creatures that are very skilled at defending themselves might have high PA despite large size, or heavily armored creatures might just absorb attacks with high AC. I'll put up a chart of "average" AT/PA values by character level later; this is a good way to determine how tough creatures are in terms of physical fighting skill.

AC: Because AC in D&D corresponds with PA, not AC, ignore this value entirely. If the monster has a high Natural bonus to AC, you can probably convert it directly with slight adjustment; an iron golem in D&D has Natural AC +22, so you could probably get away with a Philsys AC of ~25-30.

It also helps to think of AC values in terms of how good they are relative to different types of armor. Leather is treated and hardened animal skin, and it has an AC of 6-8, so most animals that do not have extra tough hides will have an AC of less than 6. Plate mail has AC 18 in PS; if a creature has skin less hard than worked sheets of steel, it should have AC less than 18. Dragonscale has AC 30, so dragons of adult age should have at least AC 30 (because dragonscale armor is probably thinner than dragon hide still on the dragon).

Damage: Damages in PS are higher than they are in D&D. A longsword wielded by a strong man that deals 1d8+3 in D&D deals something like 21+2d6 in Philsys; as a result, you can typically take the average damage a D&D monster would deal and multiply it by 3 or 4 to get the PS damage. Check for logic; how many hits would it take to drop an unarmored man? A fighter in chainmail? In plate?

Ability Scores: 10-11 in D&D is average, and for PCs, higher scores are the norm. Having a few scores 16 or above is typical in a high-power game and probably correlates to a PS stat of +4 or +5. So, consider as rough guidelines:

1-2: -5, if it's even important to assign a score.
3-4: -4 to -3.
5-6: -2.
7-9: -1.
10-12: 0 to +1.
13-14: +2 to +3.
15-16: +4.
17-19: +5.
20-21: +6.
22-26: +7.
27-30: +8.
31-34: +9.
35: +10.

These may need to be adjusted on a case by case basis for creatures with very high or very low stats.

A lot of the conversion is knowing what "typical" values in PS and D&D alike are and trying to scale things based on averages and benchmarks. I think the AT/PA values I'll put up later will probably help.
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Unread postby Dragon Sage007 » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:10 pm

Brian is a brilliant, brilliant man, and I am very tempted to start just churning out D&D monsters into PS stats for reference.

Because, let's face it. They have plenty of the normal mythology of creatures in it, and generally at believable values.

Perhaps we should have a seperate thread where we start posting such things, so that this is less of a poll to derive into semantics and more of a thread to comment on possibilities and balanced-ness?

On another note, any ideas on how to convert EL for these beasties, Brian? I'd generally put it at one half, but this may be...difficult to work with.

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Unread postby Archmage » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:29 pm

Challenge ratings you should just ignore altogether, there's no guarantee they'll be accurate at all and it's totally arbitrary anyway. Don't worry about hit die totals, either, unless you want to use them to gauge things like where MBlock should be.

OK, some AT/PA calculations. These ought to help people figure out where monsters (and players that are intended to be good fighters) stand. You don't have to be maxed out on weapon ranks to be good with the weapon in question, but being too far behind is obviously a handicap. The point of these estimates is to illustrate what a character's AT/PA and potentially damage should look like if he is the best warrior possible for his level.

I'm going to assume that a good fighter has a base AT/PA of 12/12, which is pretty consistent with the truth. I'll also do three "builds," an offensive, balanced, and defensive build. An offensive or defensive build is biased 75% toward AT or PA in skill distribution, whereas a balanced build is even. These assume increases in STR, COU, AGI, or INT, and it can be assumed that the average solid fighter will probably increase one of these stats every other level or so at minimum, and these estimates may actually be a couple points low.

1st Level:
Maxed out skill is 4 ranks.

Offensive: 15/13
Balanced: 14/14
Defensive: 13/15

3rd Level:
Maxed out skill is 8 ranks. Assumes +1 to base AT/PA from stat-ups, base 13/13.

Offensive: 19/15
Balanced: 17/17
Defensive: 15/19

5th level:
Maxed out skill is 12 ranks. Assumes another +1 to base from stat-ups, base 14/14.

Offensive: 22/18
Balanced: 20/20
Defensive: 18/22

7th level:
Maxed out skill is 16 ranks. Assumes another +1 to base from stat-ups, base 15/15.

Offensive: 27/19
Balanced: 23/23
Defensive: 19/27

9th level:
Maxed out skill is 20 ranks.
Another +1 to AT/PA. Base attributes for the weapon skill must equal at least 14 at this point, or average +4.6 (realistically, they'll probably all be about +5). Base AT/PA is now at least 16/16,

Offensive: 31/21
Balanced: 26/26
Defensive: 21/31

12th level:
Maxed out skill is now 26.

Offensive: 36/24
Balanced: 30/30
Defensive: 24/36

15th level:
Maxed out skill is now 32, which requires combined base stats of 26, so each stat must be around +7 on imaginary average. This means that AT/PA is at LEAST 21/21 and is probably higher.

Offensive: 45/29
Balanced: 37/37
Defensive: 29/45

18th level:
Ladies and gentlemen, we have potentially hit the hard skill cap at 36, assuming that the character has +10 in all three base attributes, which is possible but unlikely. This character has at LEAST an AT/PA base of 30/30. The theoretical maximum base AT/PA, before buffs, is 40/40.

Offensive: 57/39
Balanced: 48/48
Defensive: 39/57

Therefore, before buffs or magic items, the maximum AT or PA a character can have is 76, involving maxed +10 COU, AGI, STR, and INT, being level 18, and having 36 ranks in their chosen weapon (and attributing them all to one or the other, AT or PA). After direct spell buffs, the maximum AT or PA (assuming a +rank bonus) is 98. This totally maxed out character will, without buffs, beat a 1st level character maximized for defense (PA about 16) by 41 points even if they roll a 1 and the defender rolls a 20, automatically dealing a triple-damage critical hit each attack no matter what the defender does.

If armed with a totally mundane longsword, our theoretical uber-attacker versus a 1st level totally-defensive fighter deals (10 base + 10 for STR + 36 for ranks) * (3 crit) = 168 damage every attack, before armor, and gets 4 attacks for a total of 672 points of damage, enough to kill a typical unarmored human just over 12 times. And that's a light attack; the attacker could use a heavy attack to deal (17 base + 30 STR + 36) * (3 crit, since he still wins by 30 automatically) = 249 damage per attack before armor. Hooray! The potential damage is increased several times if we start factoring techs, and I'm not going to do that. He could also wield a two-handed weapon, or even just one with a higher damage, and hit even harder. I just don't care enough to work that out, but this is a fun example of what "a lot" of damage in Philsys really is.
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FOR YOUR VIEWING PLEASURE

Unread postby Nekogami » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:30 pm

http://www.mysidia.org/rpgww/Category:Bestiary


Feel free to edit the hell out of this, I have no idea how to wiki.

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Unread postby Nekogami » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:37 pm

Dragon Sage007 wrote:Brian is a brilliant, brilliant man, and I am very tempted to start just churning out D&D monsters into PS stats for reference.

Because, let's face it. They have plenty of the normal mythology of creatures in it, and generally at believable values.

Perhaps we should have a seperate thread where we start posting such things, so that this is less of a poll to derive into semantics and more of a thread to comment on possibilities and balanced-ness?

On another note, any ideas on how to convert EL for these beasties, Brian? I'd generally put it at one half, but this may be...difficult to work with.


Sounds great, Sage on all accounts. Should it be in the Character closet or here in OOC?

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Unread postby Archmage » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:04 pm

Nekogami wrote:Sounds great, Sage on all accounts. Should it be in the Character closet or here in OOC?

Put it on the wiki; it's most permanent and easiest to edit there.
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