New Summoning and Conjuring Discussion (Formerly: Oops!)

RP-related discussion otherwise not covered in the Character Closet.
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Archmage
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New Summoning and Conjuring Discussion (Formerly: Oops!)

Unread postby Archmage » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:37 pm

I meant to move the topic from the character closet about summoning and I deleted it instead. >_>;;;

Sorry, Mech.
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Kai
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Unread postby Kai » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:02 pm

Browser Cache!

Mech:
What's the real difference between Summoning and Conjuring?

I'm betting this has been dealt with before. But I'm just too curious to see what other people think, and how other people have handled this in the past. The way I see it, Conjuring and Summoning are different ends to similar means...

Conjuring is "Something from nothing." The art of making something out of pure magic and willpower, be it an object or a programmed servant. If a Conjured item or minion is damaged, the next one you Conjure would be brand new. But you can only conjure something if you know how to make it yourself, or could command or program it to do what you want. You'd have to design an abstract "blueprint" for each item you want to conjure. Perhaps each individual Conjuring spell is actualy just a unique blueprint?

Summoning is "Something from Somewhere." The art of teleporting objects or minions that already exist in this or another plane of reality. If a Summoned item or minion is damaged, the next time you summon it, it's still just as damaged or wounded as last time. But, you don't need the knowledge required to fabricate it yourself; you can just slap a "summoning rune" on any object you want to summon, or maybe agree on a contract with a creature for the privelage of summoning it.

Here's some general ideas I came up with. None are intended to be hard and fast rules, obviously; just possible guidelines:

Conjuring Pros:
- Items and servants are brand new, every time you make them.
- Servants are totally loyal and obedient (barring interferance).
- Items can be Conjured multiple times; you can conjure up a quiver of six arrows, a pair of swords, or an army of tiny mechanical mammoths.
- If your clever enough, you could make items out of materials that don't exist; a type of wood that is magnetic, or a type of metal that's lighter than air.

Conjuring Cons:
- You can only learn a Conjuring spell for something you know how to design yourself.
- Converting Energy to Mass could be expensive; conjuring spells might have a huge mana cost. It might be possible to regain most of this energy by disassembling the conjured item... but if it breaks, fades away, or is lost, the energy is gone.
- Being made of magical energy, conjured items and minions could be disintegrated using Dispel magic alone, rather than a complicated "banishing" ritual.
- You can't conjure up other spells, like fireballs, stone missiles, or acid sprays. You could still conjure burning pitch, a rock, or a blob of acid... but it would be FAR less costly to simply use Fire, Earth, or Chemical magic.

For balance reasons, Conjuring should be restricted from emulatign other spells. You should be able to use Conjuring to conjure up a fireball, a stone missile, a giant icicle,

Summoning Pros:
- You can summon things you don't know how to make.
- Items and minions have intelligence and volition, and can act independantly of the caster.
- Summoned items and minions are "real," and can't simply be dispelled willy-nilly. A Banishment spell or ritual is required instead, and those might be harder to perform than simple a simple Dispell spell.
- Teleportation requires less energy than matter creation. Summoning has a lower energy cost.
- Short-range Summoning may not require any teleportation at all; it might just compel a nearby creature to approach and aid the caster at best possible speed.
- Unless the spell includes a "return clause," the item or minion might not have a time limit. A summoned sword stays where it is when it's summoned; it's real in every way. A summoned elemental may follow the caster for awhile, if it's simply curious.


Summoning Cons:
- You can't summon many instances or copies of something; once you summon it, it's there!
- Summoned minions may need to be enslaved or subjugated before they can be summoned; in this case, they may resist the caster now and then, or even try to break free adn attack the caster.
- Summoned allies may require a contract or agreement before they allow the caster to summon them. The caster may need to repay the effort somehow, or agree to follow strict codes of conduct when summoning them (if the summoned ally is a mage, they may even demand the right to summon the *caster* now and then!).
- Summoned items and minions aren't summoned in perfect condition; they require maintenance or recuperation. If the item breaks, or the ally dies, the spell may become useless until a replacement is found, enslaved, or negotiated with.
- Summoning spells for friendly allies may need to include a "return clause" that returns the ally to their original location. Some Banishment spells or rituals exploit this clause, triggering the return early to dispel the creature. Some Exorcism spells can even banish a creature if no return clause existed.


NOTE: A lot of the ideas of Conjuring, as I've described above, start to bleed into creating Illusions that can walk, talk, and possibly even manipulate objects. I'd be willing to state that Illusion magic doesn't actually create anything; it creates the concept of something, in the minds of anyone affected by the spell. It creates false perceptions, rather than matter or energy.

Even so, you could still use Conjuring to create all kinds of deceptive items. You could make a dummy item that looks exactly like a sword, or behaves exactly like a mithril golem, but is actually made of styrofoam or somesuch.


Brian:
The only major distinction that's been made in the past that it's technically Summoning if you call a creature and Conjuring if you create or call an object. They're both the same skill, mechanically.

Naturally, most of what you've brought up is basically flavor, but it's an interesting set of things to consider for balance purposes. Dia can't summon multiple copies of Fluffy or Cerberus, for example; they're unique creatures. Hakaril can call as many wisp guardians as he has the MP to pull into his local area, but he can't summon half a dozen clones of Radeeni. This partly bleeds into the issue of FF-style summons versus actually creating creatures with stats. The way this has been handled in the past is that FF-style summons are basically damage-over-time spells that persist as long as the caster can manage to hold them around; damage to the summon is damage to the caster. Creatures with stats use their own stats, can be destroyed independently, etc.

Most of the time, you're going to use one or the other based on thematic options. Calling a unique creature is often FF-style summoning magic, whereas creating a skeletal minion or other "generic" creature is usually not.

The Advanced Philsys theory wiki article addresses some of the guidelines and limitations behind the power and versatility of spells that create or call creatures and items.


Me:
The distinction Mech talks about is the distinction I've always made and thought was most rational given the terminology we're applying.

Summoning brings things, conjuring makes them.

This seems sensible to me.


Dia:
I've thought both definitions apply, as I've never figured that you can make life with the 'summon/conjure' sort of magic. You could make a golem elsewise, but then summoning that golem would be summoning it as a creature--or you could conjure the materials for making the golem, but need extra magic for the life-embuing part of the process.


Kai:
Wait. It just occurred to me.

Why the hell is this in the Character Closet? I may move it to OOC unless someone gives me a pressing reason why I shouldn't.

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Archmage
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Unread postby Archmage » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:03 pm

Kai is a lifesaver.
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Kai
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Unread postby Kai » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:04 pm

My fucking browser cache is a lifesaver.

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pd Rydia
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Unread postby pd Rydia » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:24 pm

YOUR MOM is a lifesaver.

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Kai
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Unread postby Kai » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:26 pm

Your mom's BROWSER CACHE is a fucking lifesaver.

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pd Rydia
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Unread postby pd Rydia » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:27 pm

Oh snap!

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Unread postby Idran1701 » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:51 am

Fixing the title so people know what to come here for. :D

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Re: New Summoning and Conjuring Discussion (Formerly: Oops!)

Unread postby Mechanisto » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:12 pm

Archmage wrote:I meant to move the topic from the character closet about summoning and I deleted it instead. >_>;;;

Sorry, Mech.


Wooty woot. Was wondering where it went to.

Sooooo, Archmage meant to summon the thread. But after accidentially deleting it, Kai had to conjure it here instead.

Right? Right?

Kai wrote:Why the hell is this in the Character Closet? I may move it to OOC unless someone gives me a pressing reason why I shouldn't.


Also, it does say in the Character Closet description that it's a place to discuss Philsys and pure system topics.


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