Philsys Revisions!

RP-related discussion otherwise not covered in the Character Closet.
Uncle Pervy
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Uncle Pervy » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:11 pm

I've never seen enchanted gear as common enough to given to knights and higher ranks with any degree of regularity. Certainly, Pervy never got any despite holding a couple high ranks. Nor, I think, has Griff or Jeridan. I would assume Hak could provide his own; not so sure about Deeum and Daniel, so far as getting stuff goes.

I like "useful" enchanted things being rare, as it makes them better rewards and adds a sense of having earned it. Getting a sword that can harm ethereals isn't such a great prize if obtaining one through the market isn't that hard. But that's simply my opinion. <p>---------------------------

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Re: Well:

Unread postby Nekogami » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:15 pm

I cautiously throw my two yen in here.

If we assume that there are X stores, where X is equal to the the amount of stores created by GMs, we must also assume that they are infinite about of magical items limited only by the amount and creativity of GMs. Thusly, those magical items will either be domestic or martial depending on the nature of the RP.

Besides... in the last RP game you played on a console where money could be tracked. How many domestic magical items did you buy? Presumably few to none. And since our world is similar to those worlds, it's natural to assume that demand for magial martial items will increase the supply for those kinds of items as opposed to domestic magical items.


/econ babble. <p>

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Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:37 pm

That's kind of the point, actually, that it is hard. They're available, but they're expensive beyond the reach of the common man. Why doesn't Pervy have any enchanted gear (though I recall him getting some new robes in one of my RPs)? Why doesn't Griff? Why doesn't Deeum? Surely such characters are rich in resources or have connections to people that could provide them with such.

My main note is that these items are rare, comparatively speaking--but rules of rarity do not apply to PCs. PCs are the exceptions to every norm. They have more money, better resources, better equipment, better skills, and better abilities than their NPC counterparts. How many ryuuzoku exist in Gaera, and what percentage of those are played as PCs? How many people are the King of Doma or the Admiral of its navy? How many people own castles, mansions, or even full plate mail? To say something is rare for the world at large does not deny it to PCs. Even in D&D, not every peasant owns a +2 axe (~8,000 gp)--indeed, most of them would be dying to own a masterwork weapon or tool (~300 gp), seeing as how the average laborer makes 0.1 gp per day and a skilled artisan only makes 1 gp/day. That +2 axe costs more than the average house (1,000 gp for your standard wooden 3-4 room thatched-roof cottage or whatever) or even a nice house (5,000 gp for a wooden house with 6-10 rooms).

The point is that it isn't hard for adventurers, but the cost should be prohibitive for the common man. High-ranking knights might get such trinkets as rewards from their employers as evidence of their strength in battle, and while it takes him a while to make something truly powerful, Hak has no problem throwing together basic magic items for his friends.

Also, Amanda's got a point. There's no real reason to decide that magical items are inaccessible to everyone because it's "more realistic." More realistic according to who? To what set of guidelines? In a fantasy world where slaying dragons or planeswalking to the astral are common weekend activities, it's not worth being up in arms over the idea that there might just be enough magical weapons that the majority of higher-levelled adventurers might have a couple.

Oh, and as one more additional note--the really neat stuff should probably only be given out explicitly in RP or whatever, found as treasure in the beholder's lair or the evil wizard's castle or buried deep within the ground where nobody would ever think to look. But that doesn't mean that there can't be marginally more common items as well. <p>
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Squintz Altec
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Squintz Altec » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:59 am

Actually, I never really assumed magic weapons and such were all that rare. In most of my RPs, someone got a magic weapon to borrow, if not keep. +1 swords, stuff like that. I always assumed that is an easy enchantment to put on a weapon. And while it would be expensive, PCs (and some NPCs, depending) are well within the means to buy them.

Though I do like the idea of the more "mundane" magic items being in greater demand. I can appreciate a self lighting stove, or an Everburning Torch or something like that.

Comparing PCs to the "common man" is something that can rarely be done. PCs are naturally stronger, faster, smarter, and more talented. They go off and fight demons and demigods. The normal person has no place in this. So it's not really fair to say "Yeah, but the common man can't have this," when we're talking about PCs.


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Re: Well:

Unread postby Zemyla » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:33 am

Sorry, just reviving this post. It's important. <p>-----
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Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:52 pm

This post is getting bumped, because it may have become relevant again, depending on a couple of various factors!

Also, because someone's starting a Philsys RP. OMGWTF? <p>
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Kelne
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Kelne » Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:53 pm

Since the topic's been bumped, I think the illusion magic system needs an overhaul.

At present, illusions work like any other magic. In theory, anyway. Targets roll resistance as per usual, and if they succeed, the illusion simply doesn't work. Which is all very well in the case of direct offensive spells, but doesn't really cover the more subtle or insidious effects one can generate using illusion magic.

As I see it, resistance to illusion magic is predicated on whether or not the person you're using it on is fooled. Even if they're not fooled, the illusion is still there.

Taking a couple of examples from Kilra's sheet, which is what got me thinking on this line, faerie fire may not necessarily make you believe you're on fire, but it does illuminate you nicely. Likewise, darkness is still going to block your vision even if you know it's an illusion.

The solution I've come up with is to assign illusion spells a casting DC based around the difficulty of creating them. Simple spells such as faerie fire or darkness get a DC of 15, while more complex illusions with multiple details to get right, such as creating a tiger, would have a DC upwards of 20. Magic resistance is effectively bypassed.

Taking time to concentrate would lower the DC, obviously, and certain spells would likely be automatically cast on immobile, inanimate objects.

Of course, just because an illusion is realistic doesn't mean it's convincing. A person's liable to be a tad suspicious of a woolly mammoth suddenly charging them out of nowhere, however good it looks. Common sense is required on the part of the GM or the RPer as to whether a person is fooled.

Go ahead and give me your thoughts on the issue.

Also, it occurs to me that I never did put in my 2 cents on the enchanting and magic weapons thing. I may do this at a later date. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:58 pm

I'm much less concerned about the magic items thing now than I was originally, because I had a vested interest in the subject at the time because something specific had come up. Right now, it's less of an issue as far as I'm concerned.

You bring up a very valid point about the illusions--it's a very good issue, and it's one I don't think d20 addresses well either. Will save to disbelieve is such a subjective thing in the first place--if you put your arm through my illusory elephant, of course it isn't real.

Kelne's raising this issue brings me around to the way magic in Philsys works in the first place. Some people have taken issue with it in the past, and it's been the source of at least one or two heated arguments, many of which ultimately devolved into some nonsense about how Philsys sucked ass because it didn't allow a Reflex save. That, I felt, was a little ridiculous, but let's sum up the basics, including a review of the rules:

MAtk = INT + WIS + MAG + Spell skill rank.
MBlock = 10 + COU*2 + INT.

Both attacker and defender get a d20 roll to add to their numbers. All magic, regardless of effect or description, works this way.

This is for the sake of balance. Yes, it violates realism, on one hand, but on the other, it simplifies playability and makes the spell system more balanced.

First of all, if every character has their own techs and spells that are resisted in a manner that's completely different from any other character, things get overcomplicated. This is not the kind of thing a GM should have to be concerned about--"how is this ability dodged again?" Especially in a system where you can create your own custom spells/techs, the last thing anyone needs is to be constantly concerned about semantics.

Secondly, it does something that I have always wanted to go to great lengths to avoid in Philsys. Strictly speaking, since all details of a spell effect are up to the player, a player is responsible for figuring out the visual and physical effects. If a "dodge" save is allowed for things like a thrown fireball, a player should, instead, create spells that deal the same amount of fire damage by setting the target ablaze directly. With the way the rules stand, the thrown fireball would essentially allow two dodges, one physical dodge and one chance to deflect the spell with willpower. Even if the chance to "will resist" the spell is eliminated and replaced completely by the "reflex save" dodge, it becomes too complicated.

In short, players should be allowed to design their own spells, but the guidelines in place exist so that no matter how fantastic they are, the rules will dictate that they should all function similarily for ease of play. So while I like your idea about illusions, I don't know how much I like the idea of allowing exceptions to the core magic mechanics. It's very interesting and should definitely be considered, though--perhaps illusions are the one school of magic that should be an exception. <p>
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Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:18 pm

Come on, people. Post more stuff! <p>
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Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:20 pm

After some thought, I've decided that (COU+STA)*3 is probably too low for starting TP--the assumption that that would be suitable was based on old data where the average PC stat was closer to +3, and with the new point distribution scale of 18 among 8 stats, the average is slightly closer to +2, giving a starting character an average of 12 TP as opposed to the 18 I was originally working around.

Therefore, I think all characters should get a base TP of 10--their starting TP is 10 + (COU+STA)*3, so the average character will now start with 22 TP. This means that physical fighters have the potential to get a lot more out of investments in STA than they previously did, and that physical fighters overall will potentially have a lot more TP to throw around, allowing for greater versatility and more tech usage. This should help keep physical fighters from being too much "hit thing with sword" while still allowing mage characters a decent TP allotment even if they choose not to invest in STA.

One of my next goals is to develop some sort of regulatory/standardization method for tech costs--essentially things like "how much TP does it cost to get an extra attack" or "how much TP is an extra parry roll or multiple parry rolls" or other relatively simple effects that can be used as a baseline. For comparison's sake, I think that the cost for an extra attack thus far has been around 3 or 4 TP. An extra parry roll without sacrificing any attacks strikes me as being about 2 TP. From Hakaril's sheet, an extra spell attack is 6 TP. Some standardized skill rank prerequisites might also be helpful. If anyone wants to discuss this with me over IM in addition to posting, that would be fantastic. <p>
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Uncle Pervy
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Uncle Pervy » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:36 pm

As I think on it, I'm finding that I don't like the idea of removing agility. As is has been mentioned, Dexterity and agility are not the same thing. And, given that old-school dex can determine double-wielding under the revisions, and a lot of skill rolls, I hardly find it superfluous at all.

If Dex needs to have more use, allow an option to use Dex instead of strength for determining damage for some attacks? <p>---------------------------

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Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:15 pm

Dexterity, as defined by Merriam-Webster, definition two (the first one is about mental alertness):

2 : readiness and grace in physical activity; especially : skill and ease in using the hands

And agility:

Main Entry: agil·i·ty
Pronunciation: &-'ji-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
: the quality or state of being agile : NIMBLENESS, DEXTERITY <played with increasing agility>

Dexterity is listed as a synonym for agility, which apparently has no meaning of its own, because it's defined as "the quality of being agile" and then refers you to dexterity. While dexterity is occasionally associated with fine motor movement, it doesn't have to be. Most commerical RP systems I know don't bother to make a distinction partly because of the KISS rule--the fewer stats, the better. D&D has six. GURPS has four. We have eight already--nine is overkill. If a character needs to be particularly "dextrous" in the sense of fine motor movement, Philsys can handle that with an [s]Improved Fine Coordination <Dex> skill that adds a +1 bonus to fine motor tasks.

The stat combination was done to simplify the system slightly and remove a percieved redundancy. It also makes ranged combat a much easier option for fighter characters to pursue at least peripherally and still be decent at it without having to specialize in it exclusively or completely. It will also make "thief" characters better fighters by boosting their AT/PA and not forcing them to choose between being nimble at dodging swords and nimble at picking locks. <p>
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Uncle Pervy
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Uncle Pervy » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:18 pm

Fair enough. <p>---------------------------

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Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:56 pm

I'd like to add another objective to the list of things that Philsys is attempting to accomplish--which I'm going to call "The Philsys Manifesto," because it sounds cool and makes me feel much more Marxist and in touch with the proles.

One of the goals of Philsys is to be extremely stylish. The precise details of what your character can do are irrelevant, as long as they're cool. The whole point of the numbers is to provide a sense of scale, at least point the system in the direction of balance, and to quantify things a little.

What I'm saying here is that if Philsys seems a little more arbitrary in some cases than a commerical system, it's because it is, and that's largely my doing--most of the numbers I've come up with are rough estimations based on what sounded good at the time. Some statistical analysis and probability has been done to validate my work, but for the most part, a lot of Philsys is random numbers that sound good and feel right--and it's worked.

So there's a good reason that I haven't been making balance my priority, because the whole point of Philsys is to do cool stuff in an RP and to create a system to represent characters that are well-rounded people with interesting abilities, something a lot of other systems don't really give you the chance to do, especially at level 1.

Just keep that in mind when you're making suggestions. <p>
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Kelne
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Kelne » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:13 pm

On the topic of magic resistance, I've always considered it to encompass dodging and the like. After all, it doesn't make much sense for fighter-type characters to be shrugging off spells that target them by sheer effort of will.

Of course, Agi doesn't play any part in the formula, but the int and cou components certainly seem to factor into seeing the attack coming and acting accordingly. Each character uses whatever means is best to avoid spell damage for them, they just happen to use the same formula to do so.

On the integration of dexterity and agility, I haven't considered them to be the same thing in the past, but I can see the reasoning behind integrating them. Looking through my characters, I'm rather surprised to find that practically all of them had a dex of at least +2 at creation, in a couple of cases as a result of a trade-off with agi. On the other hand, boosting dex is almost never a priority on level-up.

So not exactly superfluous, but not compelling enough in its own right to keep separate from agility.

Improved fine motor coordination, on the other hand, I regard as very superfluous. If you're doing stuff that requires fine motor coordination, such as lockpicking, disarming traps, or jewellry-making, you might as well put the skill points directly into that. I tend to distrust skills that double-up, as it were. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Re: Well:

Unread postby White Charisma » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:20 pm

I've yet to see anyone throw this out there so here goes:

If you limit skills to 6+stat rank your absolute maximum is going to be a 16 skill. That seems to invalidate some of your high level (One Shadow, One Astral, One Enchanting, One Telepathy, Three Heal, Five Space and Eight Malediction) spells. Perhaps you should throw something about character level into the mix here as well to get this sorted out or you may have to rework the high end of the magic scale.

- Blackwind.

Edit: After some thought maybe something on the order of Stat Rank + Character Level + 4 would work out decently. This still allows for high level magic (but only for high level characters).
Let me know what you think.
- Blackwind. <p>'The internet has no wang!' - Chaos Ironskull.</p>Edited by: White Charisma at: 8/23/05 18:31

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Clarification

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:54 pm

It's not 6+stat rank. It's basically the sum of the ranks of the relevant stats displayed (If a stat is displayed twice, it is added twice. If only one stat is displayed, it is assumed that said stat is tripled in relevance to that skill), and then plus six. This is opposed to the former "if ranks go up beyond the sum of the relevant stat ranks, roll 1d6 versus the number of ranks above that barrier. If you don't get that roll, sucks ass to be you."

For the count, in regards to characters being ported over: What would one do with those points from extraneous skills such as Ambidexterity or Two-Handed Weapon Use? <p>ChibiUrusai: *chomps* I am underage. ^-^
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White Charisma
 
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Re: Philsys Revisions!

Unread postby White Charisma » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:05 pm

Understood. I assume that you keep the cap of four on skills for first level and an optional two increase every level until you hit that max. Yes?

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Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:32 am

With the system that's in place, the average "maximum rank" for a character is about 12-14, assuming they have only average (for PCs) base stats for the skill. Most PCs will succeed at one or more relevent stat-ups to increase this cap dramatically--but a high base set of stats, i.e., aptitude, is still required to achieve the most powerful of skill ranks. A character is likely to be able to boost his or her base attributes significantly as levels are attained. A mage character with low physical stats is in this way capped relatively early on a weapon skill, whereas a fighter with low mental stats will be capped early on a magic skill.

Essentially, there's only so much training you can do before you hit your limit, and at that point, you've got to find a way to increase your base stats instead. Generally speaking, most people don't run into this cap unless their characters have skills that are counter to their stat layout (i.e., a sword-wielding mage will probably never be at good at swordfighting [ will have a lower cap] than a fighter with high physical stats).

As for people who "wasted" points in the skills Nama mentioned, consider those points returned to you to spend as you please within the normal limits of spending points. I recommend that they not be used to teach your character skills they never knew before, but to instead increase existing skills that are not capped. <p>
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Capntastic » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:07 pm

I am against the combination of Dex and Agility, simply because to me they've always been completely different things. Dexterity being stuff like coordination and not being a clumsy oaf; whereas agility is more overall-speed (Sprinting and whatnot) and range of motion. Example! My grandpa, a lovable fellow, is ace at repairing instruments; he can replace tiny parts and make accurate cuts and hammers to bits of metal. He could be considered very dextrous! Other than this, though, it takes him about a half hour to go get the mail, and taking off a jacket is a chore. He is not agile at all.

Another thing is that I'm not very clear on how changing over from PS1 to PS2 would handle this. A character of mine, Ned, has a score of 6 in both Agility and Dex. If he were to simply lose one, where would those 6 points go? Putting all of them into the other would result in a score of twelve. If you took the two extra and put them somewhere else, he'd have stats that don't reflect him at all. It's heartbreakin'!

OTHERSTUFF:

I am all for the use of different stats being used as key stats for attacks. Kung-Fu masters could use agility, whereas knife-artists could use dexterity! Your average Joe Blackjack could use strength to pummel his foe about the face and spine.


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Re: Well:

Unread postby Idran1701 » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:14 pm

I agree with Zero on all of those points. <p>

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Re: Well:

Unread postby FlamingDeth » Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:53 pm

I think a lot of people are missing the point.

Combining Dex and Agi is not something that anyone thought would make Philsys more realistic. It's to make it simpler, and easier to use. Right now, there are so few uses for the "Dexterity" stat that there's no real reason for people to put points in it.

Is it realistic to combine the two? No, not at all. But then, I could make a huge long list of *other* things in the system that aren't realistic about Philsys, that nobody seems to have any problem with. It's not about realism, it's about having a system where all the stats are mechanically meaningful. <p>
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Capntastic
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Capntastic » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:11 pm

Then why not work to make Dex useful instead of banjaxing it altogether and make it incredibly complicated to switch stats over to PS2.0?


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Re: Well:

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:00 am

I think having Dex and Agi represented as one stat is fine. It's a very good idea to keep it simple, and while there are those who are clumsy with large tasks but excellent at fine motor skills (and vice versa), this is not terribly often the case--and if you want to make a character that acts so, then you can roleplay them appropriately, or there may very well be some sort of 'flaws/merits' system implemented.

This is, of course, coming from a player of Unknown Armies, which has *four* stats.

One thing that should be kept in mind is the reason for having stats in the first place. The primary reason why any RP has numbers down on paper is to resolve conflicts that would otherwise be arbitrary or arguable. Do I hit, how hard, can I escape those ropes, did I learn the meaning of life. Is it really necessary to represent the two qualities of dexterity and agility separately, when you get down to the combat aspects? Because RPwise, that shit doesn't hardly matter unless the GM is a die-rolling whore ("I open the door." "Roll a d20, see if you can open this unlocked door without hitting yourself in the face."). Keep combat and tests of skill primarily in mind, things that don't fall to RP guidedness. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

Uncle Pervy
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Uncle Pervy » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:14 am

I have often used PS for things other than combat; as do other GMs, it should be noted. <p>---------------------------

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Re: Well:

Unread postby Capntastic » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:30 am

And I've seen Philsheets as a snazzy list of character skills and ability. The main advantage over a "Freestyle" being that there's a system with it, covering two stones with one piece of paper.


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Re: Well:

Unread postby Besyanteo » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:40 am

Uses for Dexterity:

- Guns/bows/throwing knives/stars/other missile weapons heavily requiring use of the hands
- Lockpicking
- Palming of Objects
- Fist Fighting(single or dual)
- Playing most musical instruments
- Manipulation of magical rods/whips/other hand heavy melee/magical weapons
- Massaging
- Mechanics (advanced robotics on down to simple tool maintenance), especially clockwork
- Manipulation of any kind of control system, from vehicles to weapons to computers and on and on, even controlling reigns properly while riding.
- Writing (We take literacy for granted: It wasn't always so prevalent) and/or drawing, painting, and other artistic practices such as sculpting clay.
- Sign Language
- Sewing, leatherworking, and other crafting/practical repairwork
- Ropes

And many more.

I should also note that I've seen more than half of these used on character sheets for rounding out the character, or for general usage. I will admit that Dex is not largely used in alot of our combat formulae (although most people who practice with any kind of weapon will tell you someone whose is in fact not dextrous makes a bad shot/swordsman/whip user/whatever), but you can't say that Dex goes unused.

ON THE OTHER HAND:
Removing it does make things just a little bit simpler. Here's a question: Has Dex caused anyone enough of a problem with it's presence that it warrants removal of the stat, and then overhauls of everyone's PS sheets?


Archmage144
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:00 am

I have never been in any situation where it was necessary to do half of those things--the issue is seriously a means of simplifying things. If merging the two stats as a simple additive measure is going to create some bizarre problem, as in Zero's case, the best solution is to boost the combined DEX stat to +7 or +8 or something and then take the other four points and distribute them as freebie-ups to other statistics. This isn't entirely unreasonable or unfair.

It should be noted, as far as the usefulness of Dexterity as a single stat, that separating the "Dexterity" used for missile weapons from the "Agility" that makes you a decent fighter by improving your AT/PA (which reflects your base defensive capability, naturally) really potentially screws over any thief character who also wants to have decent skill points (INT) and some COU to provide magic resistance, weapon cap increases, and other benefits. Strictly speaking, it is the least "valuable" stat, because its only benefit is to add to the caps of certain skills. It occasionally gets used in stat checks for relatively minor purposes. AGI is a much more "valuable" stat because it adds to initiative, AT/PA, and skill caps, and its uses in a check are somewhat more major (a reflexive jump to avoid a trapdoor or falling object, for example).

You guys didn't argue about this three months ago, or at least, not heavily. Why the sudden influx of opposition to something that, systematically speaking, makes a lot of sense? If I felt I could get away with eliminating another stat in the name of simplicity, I'd do it, but eight stats isn't completely unwieldly.

As another side note, if we shouldn't make changes to Philsys that will require people to change their sheets, then we shouldn't make changes to Philsys. Ever. At all. Because the most important fixes are going to require changes, somehow, and since everyone keeps track of their own sheets nowadays, it's not that much to ask. Let me give you an example:

Once upon a time, a little RP webmaster named Archmage maintained and tracked every single PS sheet on the website. By himself. Anything that needed updated, changed, or reformatted was his duty. One of the earliest Philsys fixes was that most physical fighters were almost incapable of doing any damage whatsoever to a character wearing so much as hide armor unless they used a chopping attack! But to personally edit every single character sheet and change every available bit of information on the subject at the time would have been an overwhelming and impossible task. The solution? To simply decide that damage reduction was equal to AC/3, rounded down, and leave it at that. In truth, this is not a good, permanent fix--it's the result of needing a hasty band-aid to cover a hole in the system that would have been too complicated and tedious for one webmaster to correct.

From one perspective, we are still beta-testing Philsys. If Philsys is to evolve, grow, and improve, changes to the system that will require people to edit their character sheets will be necessary. Last I checked, there weren't dozens of people playing under Philsys in RPs currently, and there's no pressure to go back and edit all of your sheets immediately. God knows I won't. Just edit them as needed and worry about it later.

Edit: And before I get the counterargument that "there are more important things than being good at combat"--I firmly believe that a player should not have to sacrifice their ability to fight effectively in order to be able to pick locks and give back massages. <p>
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Besyanteo
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Besyanteo » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:10 am

Just pointing out a flaw in Priam's example. That and that removing Dex is no more a necesity than keeping it until there's due cause. If you think you have that, then by all means remove Dex.

Zero: As an alternative, if the redistributing the points as advised causes too many problems in Ned's set up, maybe consider restarting his sheet? That's what I planed for Jeridan when this was first brought up, though admittedly that sheet is fairly helter skelter as is.

Edit in reply: People still do that with a full understanding that they're doing as much, though. Anything that requires training can be focused on that way. And these things do. Also: It's fairly easy, the way skills level, to have an entirety of two or three combat related skills, and be just as functional as anyone else, with boatloads of spare skill points. But that's all kinda getting away from Dex.

Final edit for Clarity: I'm not against editting sheets to account for changes in PS. I just want to be sure that if it involves changing the layout of all the most basic stats and suchlike, that we're doing it for the right reason. IE: We've deliberated a little on both the reasons why and why not, and then decided the "whys" do indeed outweight the "why-nots". I'm not actually in either camp at the moment, but didn't feel the portrayal of one side of things was entirely accurate.

I do think you have compelling reasons for what you want to do. Just like I think there's compelling reasons to think about what Pervy and Zero have said.

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Uncle Pervy
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Uncle Pervy » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:22 am

I've seen at least 80% of Bes' examples come up, in stuff that was not my own RPs. Just because it's not used often in combat doesn't make it useless.

Personally, I want to see Dex factored more into Missile weapons



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ReakoSomner: regardless, I was poor, and in need of diamonds</p>Edited by: Uncle Pervy&nbsp; Image at: 8/25/05 2:23

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Re: Well:

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:14 am

Quote:
Keep combat and tests of skill primarily in mind, things that don't fall to RP guidedness.


I think it's probably about time to actually list the Pros and Cons of taking out dex. Someone who's been paying attention to this thread, do that. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: Well:

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:35 am

I'M SURE THIS HAS BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE, BUT I BRING IT UP WITH AN EXAMPLE:


Anyone who's been involved with End of the Chaos, be it an advisor, a RPer, or just a random reader may know of Schroedinger.

Schroedinger is a nekojin half who was involved in an unfortunate accident offworld. Specificly, in an aircraft crash on a higher-tech world.

In this accident, she lost an arm. It was replaced by the people she had been taking up working for (The Imperial army of said world) with a mechanical prosthetic.

She's still quick on her feet (HIgh agi), but I've had to revamp her dexterity to reflect the fact that she can't use that new arm for shit just yet (Very low dex)

Having both makes this possible. Cutting one makes it hard to reflect this. <p>
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Re: Well:

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:09 am

Regarding DEX being factored more into missile weapons--it factored decently well into throwing weapons' accuracy, and possibly into bows. Guns and crossbows are, however, already decently affected as the only way to raise ACC is to raise the skill. And DEX is one of the relevant stats to such skills.

Additionally of note is the [s]Vital Striking skill. This skill already requires some steep reqs...and really, doesn't seem to be worth it, when I think about it. A 3:1 point-rank ratio is already justifiable for balance, but it might be noted that you're going to likely suffer in the long run for the skill--Losing so many skillpoints already, and on TOP of that, having a comparatively poor AT/PA normally. Just for being able to crit more easily with a physical attack doesn't matter much when you're proportionally behind anyway. Unless you make a combat-optimized character. In which case, you get bitched out. Critting with magic is obviously ignored in this--spells are a matter of power vs. resistance, and a crit occurs when you completely overpower the opponent, not hitting a vital weakpoint of the enemy you're trying to kill like you are when using a physical attack.

The bitching makes NO FUCKING SENSE IN THE FIRST PLACE, because last I checked, some people were raised to FIGHT for a LIVING. If that's not true, then what the living fuck is fighting on the front lines? A hobby? Either way, [s]Vital Striking isn't worth the prereqs unless you can make a character focused on melee or ranged combat.

Aside from that, I honestly support the combination of DEX and AGI, and also agree with Brian when he says that people SHOULDN'T have to give up combat ability just to give back massages or someshit like that.


Shini: As for your character, there's still one good arm. So I'd say make a [innate] rule giving a penalty to the fake arm. It's NOT that hard. <p>ChibiUrusai: *chomps* I am underage. ^-^
Arch mage144: This means nothing to me. =P
T3chn0Namagomi: *motherly voice* Brian! What would Kate think if she heard you say that?!

---Dirtiness in a chat. Blame my mind for being in the gutter.

-Namagomi, who lives up to his name in this case.</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=namagomimk0>NamagomiMk0</A] at: 8/25/05 7:15

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Re: Well:

Unread postby Idran1701 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:29 am

I don't really have a position on the Dex/Agi combining anymore, since both sides seem to have convincing arguments. I do have to say, though, that I do occasionally see people denegrate combat usefulness in a character.

There is no innate problem with a character oriented for fighting. The problem is in people that do this for avoiding roleplaying or people that min/max specifically to exploit the system. However! It is perfectly possible to have a character that is ICly oriented towards combat, and yes, one should be able to be skillful in combat areas while continuing to be skillful in noncombat areas. <p>

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Re: Well:

Unread postby Kelne » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:30 am

You know, I find it ironic that the stat which supposedly sees the least use is the one which is having its name retained in this merger...

Also, to get this out of the way early, yes I am wavering in my opinion.

It occurs to me that there is another skill which doesn't factor into combat - charisma. One could make many of the same arguments for axing charisma that one can for axing dexterity. After all, is it really fair that someone should sacrifice combat skill in exchange for the ability to con - I mean 'persuade' other people into doing their nefarious bidding?

Of course, in reality the uses of charisma are pretty well defined, and most people have their own little ways of dealing with people who seem to be deliberately skimping on it (Note to self: Raise Kelne's charisma at next level-up).

Dexterity is a little more problematic in this regard. Obviously not being good with your hands won't and shouldn't influence NPC attitudes, and isn't likely to be much good in a fight unless you're up to something seriously sneaky or using a missile weapon (In theory, at least).

So, what is dexterity used for? Looking at the sample skills sheet, I see the following skills dex factors into:

Weapon parrying
Dual wielding
Musical instruments (Now there's an underutilised one. Not many bards as PCs...)
Alchemy
Throwing, bows, guns.
Piloting
Climbing
Craft Pretty Well Anything
Disarm trap
Pick lock/pocket
Escape artist
First aid (This would not have occurred to me, but it makes so much sense.)
Horse/chocobo/whatever riding
Ropes
Stealth (Definitely a big one.)
Tinkering and the like

I've also seen it used as the basis of disarming techs.

A fairly decent range of skills there, particularly if one adds in Bes's list. Most of these are, indeed, non-combat skills. But I can easily imagine an in-RP use for them. No, nobody's going to go around crafting weapons, armour, plushies, etc in the middle of an epic campaign (Well, almost nobody), but the rest? Very easily imaginable indeed.

Bear in mind that also that Dex doesn't just provide a cap on ranks for these skills. It ties into every check you make for them. And for several of these, Agi doesn't figure in at all.

Also, it seems that Dex ties into a great many of the tricksy, roguish skills. At least the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Something to bear in mind.

More to come at some time that isn't insanely late. Possibly including that list of pros & cons Priam asked for. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Re: Well:

Unread postby Capntastic » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:50 am

It's not that I don't want to change my sheets. I'm all for updating to a new system; but I'm just worried that characters with really high investments in Dex or whatever would get screwed over in a conversion; or at least majorly wacked out.




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Re: Well:

Unread postby Archmage144 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:18 pm

There really isn't any way to "get screwed" by that sort of merger--you won't really "lose" any points if you can shift them somewhere else, and if you have a lot of them, raise a couple other stats by one instead of giving a character a sudden increase to +7 STR or something. With the merge, characters with both high AGI and DEX lose nothing, whereas characters that previously felt DEX was not a worthwhile investment because of sacrifices that wolid have to be made elsewhere get a boost as long as they invested in AGI.

The reasons for the merge are as follows:
<ul>
<li>To decrease the number of overall stats. Philsys has too many as it is.</li>
<li>To make it possible for fighter type characters to be adept at both ranged and melee combat without totally sacrificing one or the other.</li>
<li>To allow "thief"-type characters to still be decent in combat without having to rely wholly on techs that utilize their DEX in non-standard ways.</li>
<li>To eliminate a stat that effectively has one function and can generally be considered to be undervalued.</li>
<li>The major point of having a highly-customized RP system is that not everything must be dependent on base stats. If a character is missing an arm, RP it. Their DEX score sholid not be the basis (or requirement) for the roleplaying of a character with one arm. Besides, a character with one arm colid have absurdly good dexterity with his remaining arm and be able to fix a Swiss watch with a screwdriver and his one good hand, because he's just that precise.</li>
<li>I have reason to believe that Zero's case is unusual--most PCs do not have a combined AGI and DEX greater than +10, and I sincerely doubt that most people have a +5 in both stats in the first place. If you really feel that your character's stats will be somehow screwed up by the merge, recreate their stats as they wolid have been at level 1 (18 points) and then roll your stat-ups normally (or guess at how many you succeeded at, because I trust people).</li></ul>

If we really need discrete stats for every minute subfunction of a stat because two different words are used to describe them (AGI and DEX are synonymous in the dictionary, remember) then I have the following propositions.
<ul>
<li>Split up Intuition into Perception and Comprehension. I think we need two different stats, because noticing things and figuring out how they work is not the same.</li>
<li>Divide Stamina into Toughness and Endurance. Just because you can take getting hit in the face doesn't mean you can run a marathon without getting winded.</li>
<li>Separate Courage into Willpower and Bravery. Some people are brave to the point of being foolhardy, but they are easily persuaded by peer pressure.</li>
<li>Charisma sholid be separated into Attractiveness and Persuasiveness, because not every great leader is a handsome man (Adolf Hitler, for example). L. Ron Hubbard is ugly, but he started an entire religion because of a bet in a bar.</li></ul>

I know that these new suggestions and changes might force people to revise their sheets, but Philsys will be much more comprehensive and accurate in describing player abilities as a reslit. After all, RPG statistics are supposed to detail every last facet of a character so there can be absolutely no confusion as to precisely what one character is essentially capable of.

As Ashley just put it, "you shouldn't have to think about your character when you're roleplaying. There should be numbers to tell you what to do." <p>
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</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=archmage144>Archmage144</A]&nbsp; Image at: 8/26/05 0:18

Idran1701
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Idran1701 » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:00 am

...Brian's suggestion actually amuses me, because the second edition AD&D option book Skills and Powers did exactly that for each stat. The spliting into two sub-stats, that is. Completely off-topic, but just saying. :D <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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Uncle Pervy
 

Re: Well:

Unread postby Uncle Pervy » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:37 am

I find it preferable to eliminating Dex, myself.

Then again, I'm not seeing how PS is all that complex that eliminating a stat would significantly improve it to begin with.

<p>---------------------------

ReakoSomner: regardless, I was poor, and in need of diamonds</p>Edited by: Uncle Pervy&nbsp; Image at: 8/26/05 4:34

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Besyanteo
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Re: Well:

Unread postby Besyanteo » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:41 am

Dear Pervy:

No. Just no.


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