Villains 101

RP-related discussion otherwise not covered in the Character Closet.
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KingOfDoma
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Villains 101

Unread postby KingOfDoma » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:48 pm

Kai and I had a discussion, and this was its end result.

PapatymisonN: ... I think we need to start up Villains 101.
PapatymisonN: Teach stuff like "Villains have weaknesses", "Villains don't believe they're villains", "Villains don't have to have ALL the power, just the RIGHT power", stuff like that.
Lithaladhwen: You'd think it would be obvious.
PapatymisonN: You'd be surprised.

Rule one: Villains are people. You are a person. You are good at some things. You are also weak, and you are not invincible. You care about some things. After that, you do stuff. -The exception to this being villians who truely believe themselves to be immortal and/or invincible. There is also the villian who is determined to the point of caring about nothing but their own goals.

Rule two: Villains don't think they're villains. They believe what they're doing is the right thing, despite it being clear to any others that it's not. The exception to this is criminals with a concense. Sometimes, it's interesting to see the villian try and justify why he's doing what he's doing, despite knowing it's wrong.

Rule three: Villains have feelings. They care about some things, and don't care about others. They have to make tough choices, and always are affected by their own decisions. Exceptions include most of the undead, sentient golems, and emo kids.

Rule Four: Villains CAN be all-powerful, but it's far more interesting to make them not. That way, they're far more interesting and can add an opportunity to give them added depth. It's easier to take a character seriously when there's evidence of more going on than "OMGZ most powerful sorcerer in the lands, bitch." Counterpoint: Sometimes, being all powerful leads to the explaination of how said person got that way, leading to the quest for knowledge on how to beat them- Making doing so that much more satisfying.

Rule Five: Villains usually want more than one thing. This is largely a result of having had an entire life of being a person before taking a life of villainy. Want to take over the world? Who cares. What's the real agenda? What do you do with the world once you have it?

Rule Six: Villains are fun to watch. Whether they're charismatic, funny, snide, or just plain insulting, they have to be engaging or no one will care. And no one will want to play if they don't, at the least, have an opinion on the character.

Shini sez-

Villians are hard to do right- That includes even minor, nameless one shot villians. Those new to GMing should try and start with such, however, and when they have a good, strong concept, move on to someone who's aspirations are a little higher, and perhaps slap a name on that mofo. Another thing is that it's okay for your villian to think that he's the most powerful being in all creation, but it's not okay for you to think he is. Don't try and empower your villian to the point where he should be able to take the PCs effortlessly- Unless, as mentioned above, part of the plot involves finding the correct way to defeat him. I'm a fan of making the PCs think creatively- The very first battle with General Vaniyakna ended when he was thrown off a ledge into a river below his castle. Granted, he came back, but everyone was satisfied.

Dramatic endings to villians are a plus- Recently, in End of the Chaos, Idran rolled a natural 20 when shooting a villian in the stomach, after the party had shitty rolls all night. Idran had history with this villian, making it appropriate and very fulfilling to simply let that be the finishing blow. This leads into the next point: Villians exist to be defeated. Do not get caught up on them and forget that.
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<div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A]&nbsp; Image at: 9/23/06 19:38

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Kai
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Re: Villains 101

Unread postby Kai » Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:37 pm

Also, a note for future posters to this thread.

If you're a mod or an admin, we obviously can't stop you from editing the first post to add input. First of all, doing such would discourage adding to the thread, and adding to the thread is ROCKIN'.

However, in the spirit of not discouraging the proletariat from participating, I'm going to reply to Shini in a separate post.

I agree with all of those things he said except one. I'm going to maintain my position that villains should not be needlessly uber. I mean, if all a villain needed to be interesting was to be grossly overpowered, I think we'd all be at DBZ forums roleplaying with ten year olds. < /elitism>

But other than that point, I think most people are going to be on the same side here.

Have interesting villains. If your villain is supposed to be scary without bearing any resemblence to an actual person, nothing you do will make your players care. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

Idran1701
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Re: Villains 101

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:32 pm

Unless you're playing in a CoC game, of course. <p>

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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Capntastic
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Re: Villains 101

Unread postby Capntastic » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:05 am

One thing I believe:

Villains should be the repository for far more thought and effort than a regular character. They often have far less time to develop more 'casual' characteristics like favorite breakfasts or ideal vacation spots through the limited time one has with them, and this should be compensated by a great deal of forethought.


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Kai
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Re: Villains 101

Unread postby Kai » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:03 pm

Agreed. This is one reason I'm resurrecting the "Villains" thread in the character closet. Not everyone has been exposed to the same literary conventions, and some examples of Gaeran villains might help.

Don't know if it will make a huge difference, but it can't hurt to show what it looks like inside the mind of an evildoer. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Animala
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Unread postby Animala » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:44 am

While digging through a backup CD, I found a set of rules for roleplaying villains that I don't think I ever actually posted. Here they are:

Rule #1: An antagonist should never, ever, be brought into an RP without careful consideration of how the characters will react.

Basically, before introducing an antagonist to the RP, one should consider where this will take the RP. Are characters already involved in doing stuff? More importantly, will their players be upset if you disrupt that stuff? It’s generally accepted that characters are not going to enjoy facing an antagonist. The important thing is that their players do. Also, keep in mind the relative power level and motivations of the antagonist and the other characters. If the antagonist is a serious threat, what is to stop the characters or even NPCs from rising up against him and striking him down? On the flip side, if the villain is incredibly powerful, what’s to stop him from crushing the characters like bugs, besides the fact that this is horribly bad RP etiquette? Consideration for the other Rpers is paramount. So there has to be something in the setting to explain the antagonist’s restraint. He must be threatening, or a nuisance, or creepy without being so dangerous that he would be immediately hunted and killed. While one can conceive of a villain who could teleport in, break things, and teleport out without being traced, this sort of thing is very frustrating to both characters and players, unless planned beforehand. More on this later.

Rule #2: There are exceptions to every rule. The exception to this rule is Rule #1. There is no exception to Rule #1.

Under isolated circumstances, the following rules may not apply. They’re more like guidelines. However, you had better be DARN sure that you are the exception, or you are going to either look very silly, or be incredibly annoying to everyone else. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Rule #3: An antagonist should either be a serious antagonist or a comedic antagonist, and should stay in that role.

Let’s face it: people don’t like shifting their paradigms. If you build up a character as being deathly serious and then have his grand evil scheme consist of painting everything pink, most people are going to be a little disappointed with you. Likewise, if you have a character who fights with magically charged ice cream cones, don’t expect his threats to be taken seriously and don’t expect him to be well received in serious RPs.

Rule #4: An antagonist should never be specifically targeted at only one character to the extent that no other characters can make a significant difference in the outcome of events, especially if the other character is controlled by the same person who controls the antagonist.

While that sort of plot may work wonderfully in fantasy novels and movies where you have one “hero of destiny” and one “creature of evil,” you must keep in mind that an RP is not a novel. Running this sort of plot very nicely simulates the experience that a minor character must have: being forced to watch from the sidelines. If you want this sort of story, write it as a story, not as an RP. If the other characters can’t make a real difference, why have them there at all?

Rule #5: The antagonist must suffer defeat and failure.

It really isn’t fair any other way. It’s a bit unreasonable to expect all of the players of “heroic” characters to accept loss after loss while their character’s tormentor always escapes every time. As a general rule, if you’re planning to physically hurt other player characters, expect to receive as much as you give, somewhere along the line. Antagonists are people just like heroes, and being mean doesn’t grant them immunity from losing every now and then.

Rule #6: Antagonists must have a reason to be antagonists.

Nothing straight is made out of crooked wood. Everyone needs some sort of history. Yes, it is possible to just be a disagreeable person for one reason or another, but people who set out to do some serious damage to innocents generally have some reason for doing so, be it past trauma or simple insanity. Speaking of insanity, real insanity is NOT any of the following: cute, funny, random, or a joke. Insanity, especially that which results in severely destructive behavior is a scary thing. Oh, and “being evil” is not a good enough reason to be an antagonist. While it makes sense on one level, it simply isn’t interesting enough to make a good villain.


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