Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

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Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Kelne » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:51 am

Ah, the random tangent. Which is beginning to look like a niche of sorts for me.

Anyhow, I think we should work out at least a few basic facts about the MAC setting, for the sake of convenience and making sure everybody's on the same page when it comes to creating characters within the setting.

First amongst my points to cover is the question of the war. As I understand it, Amanda originally described the setting as post-apocalyptic, albeit sufficiently post-apocalyptic that the world had managed to recover. This gives rise to questions such as who fought who, why, and just how bad things got. Along with whether it was a global thing or mostly confined to Igala.

I have a few thoughts along those lines, but the very first question is 'do we keep it?' An odd question, I know, given that it's fairly integral to the setting on the face of it, but one I figure ought to be asked.

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:58 pm

I wouldn't exactly say post-apocalyptic, per-se. My answer here would be that the setting, given the fact that there's apparently a desire or demand for large humanoid piloted robots and magic-amplifying powered suits, the politics would be at least shaky in general. As adventurers in the traditional sense are effectively done away with, we wouldn't have random wandering heroes in super robots, obviously. But regardless, that point aside, I would imagine that the world would either be in a prewar state or postwar state--but not a post-apocalyptic one. As far as the nature of the political tensions, I would not believe that it would be as simple as "magic vs. magitek"--that's just a bit ridiculous.

As for scale, I wouldn't imagine it to be a global issue. Igala-scale would be more likely than the entire planet. To have a global (or near-global) post-apocalypse effect, it would take a massive war that would involve practically all of the world, at least two opposing groups having particularly destructive weapons (if a war of such scale would actually involve only two sides), and using them EXTREMELY liberally to the point where MAD would be an inevitability for each and every side. Even to get a global or near-global war started and sustained would take an outside party effectively manipulating all sides for a good time--those who've played Xenogears know what I mean. So such a war would be unlikely at best.

At the same time, so would, were I to be honest, a global, or even a continental force--trust in such groups wouldn't be so high, when I think about it, and not everyone would want to be assimilated into this group, especially if one "subgroup" ends up being the "leader" of this force. This also does not count the fact that one or more groups of "opposing subgroups" would likely not simply lose their opposition just because they were all assimilated into the same large thing.

Also, I'm not sure what there would be to fight with a global army anyway--this would require either the introduction of spacefaring aliens, or some sort of extradimensional invaders, assuming we don't count potential rebellions. Either way, a global army would alter the essential tone and nature of RPs in the setting compared to a smaller, or group of smaller militaries. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=namagomimk0>NamagomiMk0</A] at: 8/26/06 20:16

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Kai » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:40 pm

I'd imagine that, in a post-uberwar setting, it would be POSSIBLE for broad-spanning alliances to take place. However, the failure of the League of Nations idea would mean it wouldn't be for a very very long time. This means that there would probably still be unresolved problems between whatever groups caused the problem in the first place.

Now... I am going to disagree with Nama in that I won't say that the "magic vs. magitek" rivalry is rediculous. As an example, even though the branches of the U.S. military are required to work together, there is still bad blood between them. Huge rivalries. The navy thinks everything can be solved with nautical battles, the air force wants to lead air strikes, and the army wants to send troops.

Getting them to work together and make concessions for one another requires a centralized authority. Does MAC have one? If so, that would intensify resentment between groups forced to work together. Meaning, the bad blood would remain. Make sense? <p>-------------------------
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:44 pm

Oh, I would understand that. But a WAR being fought over such a thing would be a bit more ridiculous, is what I'm saying. Or, to be exact, should've said. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=namagomimk0>NamagomiMk0</A] at: 8/26/06 21:51

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Kai » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:35 am

Wars and mutinies have sparked over infinitely more minor things than long-running tension and resentment between unwilling allies.

Example: WWI.
Example: Fall of Troy.
Example: The Cold War.
Example: Other "ridiculously" improbable events.

Edit for clarification: The examples above show that tension and mistrust are poor bases for an alliance. Such alliances tend to splinter easily, even over things that would be minor on their own.

I hate to be the one always bringing pragmatic examples to discussions about an RP setting, but my point is this: Whether something is improbable or not doesn't make it impossible. In a sea of infinite possibilities, everything is relatively improbable, but at the same time.... something has to happen. Improbable or not. <p>-------------------------
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:03 am

Barius sank, but that was due to instability. :O <p>
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Capntastic » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:52 am

The islands surrounding Beldad have been conquered by the Geckoslovakian Empire. Said empire has a massive nautical fleet.

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:05 am

...I get your point, Kai, but World War One was sparked by long-running tension. Ferdinand's assassination was only a cause if you're looking at it from a very shallow perspective, no offense intended, but from a broader look it was merely a lynchpin for the release of a huge amount of tension between Germany/the Austro-Hungarian Empire and England/France. Look at (and I'm going by possibly poorly-remembered historical facts) the Moroccan Crises, how Germany supported efforts of Moroccan independance pre-WWI purely to spite England.

And what about the Cold War? I'm not sure what event you're saying caused it, but as far as I know it was entirely a manifestation of Communist/Capitalist mutual dislike of each others' economic philosophies, coupled with a general fear of both sides about the others' technological development. In short, international tensions.

As for the Fall of Troy, I'm afraid I'm not up on my ancient history, but I would suspect that Homer's representation of the reason for the cause of the Trojan War wasn't quite accurate to historical facts. <p>

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Kelne » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:31 am

On the topic of magitek vs magic, I tend to take the position that this conflict is a simplification of a far more complex situation. I see the war as being less of a clash between ideologies and more as a clash between nations who happen to have focused on different paths. In fact, I'd typify the conflict as more between magic and technology, with the main clash being between the Domans and their allies on one side, and the Valthi and theirs on the other.

Ideology probably doesn't enter into it when it comes to root causes of the war. Mages and scientists, after all, don't run very many countries. Rather, you get the steady buildup of tensions, and a sudden flashpoint which triggers all-out war.

I should note that, some time back, Pervy conducted an informal survey of national experts, and found that nobody thought that their nation would have started a war. Granted, at the time, he likely counted himself as the expert on a number of nations, but I suspect a survey conducted today would yield a similar result. This doesn't mean that the war therefore doesn't take place, but I think it's important to consider reasons why a nation might have gotten involved, rather than assuming they sensibly sat on the sidelines. After all, if people are behaving sensibly, they should never wind up starting a war.

One should also never discount the possibility of some machiavellian figure fanning away at embers for their own purposes. This is, after all, a fantasy setting, and I'm sure there are any number of people who'd love to see Igala plunged into war.

Image Personally, I blame the Infinity Corporation.

Yes, quite. In any case, I think there are quite sufficient tensions for war to break out as-is, given the right circumstances, even discounting how the situations may evolve over time.

Moving on to tensions during the MAC era itself, I'd say that the Corps itself represents a force under some central authority, aimed at preventing the outbreak of another war, while individual nations maintain armies designed to win any war which may break out. Voila, instant tension between the different armed services, between them and the Corps, and possibly within the Corps itself, depending on how loyal individual members are to their respective regimes. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Kai » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:07 pm

Idran loses for totally missing my point.

Nama tried to assert that long-running tension is apparently a ridiculous cause for a conflict. I gave examples that, supported by the more in-depth explanation you gave, prove him wrong. <p>-------------------------
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Idran1701 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:44 pm

...Oh, I did indeed. My mistake, that first sentence made it seem like you were putting them up as examples of such infinitely more minor things. My apologies for the confusion on my part! <p>

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Kai » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:07 pm

I should have been more clear. But yeah. I think we're pretty much in agreement. People who already dislike and mistrust each other are only too happy to take whatever excuse they can get to start poking/shooting holes in the other side. <p>-------------------------
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:57 am

I've got some stuff to add to this, but it probably won't happen until later tonight after I'm done with work.

The last time I spoke with Amanda about the setting and expressed interest in working with it again, she pretty much gave me carte blanche with regard to it; I'm assuming that still holds, but I don't want to tear up anything that's already established without good reason or input from other people. Relatively little of the setting was established as far as I know, mostly because very little was written about it, but I'm sure at least some detail exists in the mind of its original creator.

I'm planning to talk to her a little about it if an opportunity comes up; beyond that, I think it's safe to say that there's a lot of freedom in working with the setting, so I'm going to jot down a few of the ideas I've got here eventually. <p>
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Zemyla » Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:58 pm

Also note that magical WMDs, at least as far as I would figure, would be relatively "clean", only destroying the target and avoiding collateral damage.

Secondly, a planned plot of mine has spacefaring aliens landing in MAC Gaera, but they have neither the numbers, the resources, nor the inclination to wage global war. Heck, they don't even have FTL. <p>-----
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:57 pm

Zem loses for not understanding what the acronym "WMD" stands for. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>

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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:57 pm

The primary issue that has been raised regarding MAC is definitely a very good one: What kind of conflicts have occurred in the past that have spurred the development of magitek technology?

Clearly, the construction of such powerful weapons is contingent upon there being a need for them, be it Cold War-style deterrance or actual warfare. However, I don't like the "mages versus technoknights" idea. This isn't because it's patently silly or anything like that, because people have definitely gotten in major wars over smaller differences in opinion; on one hand, it could be a source of tension. However, there's one thing that I think does make the "magic versus technology" dispute kind of ridiculous unless it is considered from a very specific angle.

The most common reason I've seen for mages and traditional scientists disliking one another is the somewhat absurd notion that "technology" is a force that is acknowledged by the universal will. Arcanum does this to a certain extent; the more adept a character is with machines, the less adept they can be with magic, and it's not just a matter of training one more thoroughly than the other. Learning skills like engineering actually penalizes your ability to learn spells. This seems sillyt to me mostly because it means that the grand will of the universe a) has a definition of "technology" and b) is willing to create totally arbitrary cutoffs as to what it is. A sword isn't "technology," but a lightbulb is. The ladder isn't technology, but a steam engine is. Levers and pulleys, the foundation of mechanical engineering, are too "simple" to be called "technology." Huh?

The most logical reason (not that a war would have to start for logical reasons, but let's suppose) for mages to dislike scientists who acted independently of magic (and let's not forget that in this world, magic IS a science) is that the mages might feel as though their powers were being trivialized. What's the point of a light spell if any dolt can flick a switch or carry a flashlight? The issue then becomes one of degree; at what point do non-magical devices begin to overshadow magic? Few mages would start a war because candles made their light spells insignificant, or at the very least, there's no precedent for that sort of thing.

If we assume that mages eventually decide that devices like steam engines and toaster ovens and locomotives are a threat to their way of life, then the idea of a "magic vs. science" war could make sense.

The divide between "mages" and "scientists" requires that scientists are the revolutionaries. As things stand, magic is an established force in the world. Science has to be driven by one of several possible factors:

1. It might be able to do something magic cannot (which is highly unlikely). However, see below.
2. It might be able produce devices that are cheaper or more accessible to the general public than magical equivalents. Researching the light bulb seems silly when even 5% of the population can learn to create permanently glowing glass balls that serve the same function; it's a losing investment unless you're guaranteed to succeed, and you aren't.
3. If large numbers of people suddenly develop a reason to resent magic users, non-magical means of accomplishing tasks will be in demand.

Sheer curiosity could be a reason to drive the advance of technology separate from magic, but this is ultimately likely to just be a novelty. Look, you can build a huge device that burns coal to boil water and spin a magnet to generate an electric current! Too bad that the mage down the street can throw lightning bolts. It's even possible that much of the "science" done in the world is done by more scholarly mages who enjoy theorizing about how the world would work without magic and building tools that don't rely on spells to work.

The most likely factor that would drive the continued invention of "complex non-magical tools" would be a shift in attitude toward mages or an inability of magic to solve the problems of the populace. Ultimately, as long as magic can meet the needs of the people, there is no need to develop non-magical solutions to complex problems. Clearly, magic does not always meet the people's needs; someone built the boat, for example, and shipbuilding likely came out of a need to be able to travel across water whether you had a mage with you or not. Besides, even if you have a mage, it's a huge pain in the ass to levitate or fly by yourself; forget about carrying cargo or a crew. It's probably more efficient to teleport, but hell if most mages can pull that off, either.

The first "complex non-magical tool" that's going to make a huge difference in warfare is gunpowder. As soon as you have rifles, even mages as artillery seem like less of a threat. So the enemy has one mage for every twenty soldiers, all armed with traditional weaponry; you have twenty men with guns. A competent mage will deal a lot of damage at this point (the idea of an invisible, flying spellcaster dropping fireballs on enemy lines from some indistinguishable position is just too nasty), but a mage is going to spend his energy very quickly going "all-out," whereas a group of soldiers armed with guns can stand around shooting for hours if they have a good supply of ammunition.

In real life, gunpowder rapidly made traditional defenses useless. Castles and plate mail couldn't stand up to powder kegs and rifles. Unlike in real life, magical defenses in Gaera might be sufficient to keep gunpowder from totally changing the face of warfare. However, it's still going to eventually become more efficient to equip soldiers with guns than swords.

The bit that's easy to overlook is the fact that if non-mages can get guns and gunpowder, so can mages. A mage carrying a rifle has a great way to conserve his arcane stamina while still dealing damage. There's no good reason why someone would eschew tools like that just because they can cast magic; the "magic versus technology" dichotomy is a false one. And mages are going to improve upon non-magical technology by adding their own tweaks. If a gun is good, what about a gun that conjures its own ammunition so that it never runs out? Or one that makes standard metal slugs fired from it explode like bombs on impact?

Non-magical technologies are so far behind magic at this point in Gaera's development that it will take some massive divide to spur their growth with any rapidity.

At one point I ran an RP that took place in an "alternate world" (an illusory world, but nevertheless) with a steampunk feel to it. The world's history was explained by a revolution in which mages were hunted down and killed by the masses (let's not forget that 95% of the world's population has no magical ability) because the common people came to resent their powers. Presumably, they were lead by some great and charismatic figure or revolutionary that moved them in that direction.

I'm still thinking about all of this, but I'm looking for some input. The biggest problem I'm facing is that if the "masses" decided to rise up and go to war with mages, they need some reason to make peace so that in modern MAC they can be working together.

I've actually got more stuff figured out regarding why modern MAC still needs these weapons than why they created them in the first place. A global war actually seems pretty likely to me; I can see a future Prandia and a Federated Countries of Central Igala (Doma, Nekonia, Riva, Inustan, Kalshana, Baron) at war with one another, but currently one of the ideas that I favor is the idea of Ka'thalar's non-drow population being overrun by drow who are sick of sharing their ancestral homeland with outsiders and who ultimately decide to declare war on the rest of the world out of sheer xenophobia. These ideas are not exclusive, and there can certainly be other angles that create political tension, but that's where my head is.

Of note is the fact that the first MAC RP was at least partially about the potential for extraterrestrial invasion; it never finished, so we never got to see the details play out. I'd personally want to stay away from the subject for now, but it could be an interesting plot thread if someone else wants to deal with it.

As a final aside before I give the rest of the world a chance to comment on my rambling behemoth of a post, a "weapon of mass destruction" is a weapon that is capable of indiscriminately killing a large amount of people. As such, Zem is only half wrong in his statement; a "magical hydrogen bomb" might kill every mortal being within three hundred miles in all directions without damaging structures, terrain, or plants, and no one would doubt its nature as a "WMD" despite the fact that it is arguably much more focused and "clean" than a standard atomic bomb. <p>
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Idran1701 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:07 am

One comment I have on your language, Brian. From all I've seen, the dichotomy isn't magic vs. technology (that being the application of greater knowledge of the workings of the universe), but magic vs. science (the knowledge itself). Science and technology are not the same; the latter is the application of the former. Further, I wouldn't say scientists are responsible for technology at all, but purely the understanding that allows technology to be developed. The actual development is in the hands of engineers. One can be both a scientist and an engineer, certainly, but that doesn't mean that scientists develop technology any more than it means that engineers advance science. <p>

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Response that doesn't have to do with dichotomy

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:00 am

Coming up with a reason for mecha to exist in the first place is probably one of the most difficult things ever--sure, they look kickass, and it only takes one person to use one, but given that technically, one already has tanks, jets, etc, there'll have to be some degree of bullshitting unless there's something that mecha effectively WOULD do that other things couldn't.

However, it is notable that magic itself is still dependent on the skill, training, and innate aptitude of the caster, while less magical weapons, such as a few ideas I do have for the future, if I can ever get Doomsday back up, will just simply be mass-produced, and take, MAYBE a few weeks to months of training for proficiency, as opposed to however long it would take to, without being thrown in some magic school for a few years or being a dragon or somesuch, learn and utilize the high-level mass-destruction stuff that Brian would say mages could have.

And some countries wouldn't exactly let their stuff go JUST anywhere. I would know.


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Re: Response that doesn't have to do with dichotomy

Unread postby Capntastic » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:07 am

I think Mecha would exist because it's easier to take down a group of mages head on while they're shooting fireballs at you if you're in a big robot. Of course, this makes you a big target, and causes strategy and support units to be involved.

Mecha can be used more strategically than tanks because they have the capability to be in places that aren't the ground. They could easily be dispatched atop buildings or high terrain, and then could jump down and tear into you if needed.

They're not the end-all of combat, but they have highly specialized uses. Plus, they're more armor-iffic than platemail.


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Re: Response that doesn't have to do with dichotomy

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:14 am

Simple solution:

One country makes a mecha. It becomes the be-all-End-all for a very short time.

Other people have to respond in turn, or be crushed by Mecha. :( <p>
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Re: Response that doesn't have to do with dichotomy

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:07 am

Noting that the mecha range from roughly 20-40 feet tall (~7-13 meters), it wouldn't be too hard, given the resulting volume, to take one such thing out via the explosive charges found in airstrikes or long-range missiles. It would require a mass-production stage, or something that would absolutely, completely, and permanently (Or long enough to be believed permanent) to prevent use of other, possibly more viable things beforehand to become significant. Mobile Suit Gundam's Minovsky Particle technobabble comes to mind as a single example, noting both that Brian has said at different intervals that, effectively, visual confirmation would be VERY necessary, and he was aiming for something on the level of Gundam; definitely in that these Armors and A2s are "Real Robots" of the mecha genre, and possibly having a very political aspect to any conflict, but aside from that, other such factors are unknown.

Anyway, THAT was a tangent. Simply put, mecha would have to be invented before high-speed personal combat aircraft and/or high-payload ballistic missiles, something would have to happen to make such things generally useless, or mecha would have to be put into mass-production, in order to be made the significant weapon of the Gaeran battlefield for a while. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=namagomimk0>NamagomiMk0</A] at: 8/29/06 12:00

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Re: Response that doesn't have to do with dichotomy

Unread postby Capntastic » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:13 pm

"The tank was declared obsolete because of guided missiles in the 1960s, and because of the attack helicopter in the 1970s. This has not stopped the main powers from designing and ordering new MBTs into the 1990s. Today the emphasis on light fast-reaction military units, unconventional warfare, and the electronic battlefield has several nations reconsidering the use of heavy armoured forces."

I can imagine this sort of thing making Mecha (Especially the heavier sorts) being candy to mages.

I'm assuming there's some level of anti-magic field technology (powered by magic crystals or whatever.) to offer some protection, of course.

Anyways, the emphasis would definitely be on light, fast, and easily produced mecha. Mass production is tricky because these things would be damned expensive unless you have some sort of spell to conjure up hundreds of man-hours worth of work and (how many tons?) of materials. Perhaps that only a few thousand "new models" are produced every year by (whoever), and many of the mecha in use are refurbished, modified, or otherwise thrown together suits? It would definitely account for the wildly varied types PCs are going to be using.


Archmage144
 

Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Archmage144 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:53 pm

Idran's point is very good. The practical application of science to create tools is not the same as science itself; somehow that had escaped me.

After a bit of discussion where I used Kai as a sounding board last night, I decided that as far as MAC's history goes the best possible option seems to be that within a few centuries of Gaera's present non-magical tools and non-magical knowledge about the natural world will have advanced to the point where revolutionary thinkers will decide that there is no longer any reason why mages should hold all of the keys to the world. Eventually the 95% of the world that can't use magic will decide that the 5% of the world who can isn't doing their part to aid the common man and mages will be persecuted; with the aid of modern non-magical technological advances (and sheer numbers), the war will be fought to a standstill.

Eventually a peace settlement occurs for whatever reason (not really worried about what exactly at this point) and the net result is that in modern MAC mages and non-mages are working extra hard to cooperate and combine the powers of science and magic for the benefit of mankind. From the end of the war on, magic and the non-magical sciences form a partnership that intends to make things better for sentience races as a whole; the idea is to use magic to springboard people into independent solutions that do not require continued spellcasting or input from mages. Both pursuits are recognized as triumphs of the mind that can be used for the greater good.

The development of mecha in Gaera seems to make sense, then, given the current medieval bent of the setting; it is easy enough to suppose that instead of building tanks that the focus is on building bigger and better suits of armor. The tek mecha is essentially a kind of golem that is controlled by a pilot, after all. The precise logic as to "why mecha" isn't quite as important in this case as "mecha are," so the only place I've been stuck up to this point regards what historical events might have taken place.

The next question, then, and perhaps the more valid question of "why mecha?" is "who is the enemy?" Putting to rest the idea that mages and non-mages are still warring (because they were obviously cooperating last time MAC was mentioned), I've got a few factions in mind.

Doma, Riva, Nekonia, Inustan, Kalshana, and Baron form the Federation of Central Igalan Nations, which is closer to the European Union than the USA; there is a central government, but national leaders retain local sovereignty. By this point, computer technology has made direct democracy possible because every vote can be counted and information is readily available to the people through miscellaneous forms of media, so the FCIN uses direct democratic process as its major form of government, with an elected body of representatives and a main head for decisions for which there is no time to take a popular vote. (I realize that geographically speaking that "central" isn't quite correct, but it's close, and the nations in question would definitely consider themselves the "center" of Igala.)

Valth expands its territory northward in an attempt to overcome its poor supply of available natural resources (see Japan during the World Wars). The Valthi government and its territories (which Nama probably ought to name) maintains a shaky peace with the FCIN out of general mutual interest and because of common foreign enemies (more on this in a bit).

Southwestern Igala is largely orc territory. I'm not going to worry about the details of that; some other interested party can figure it out. The same goes for Theice, because I'm not really sure what would happen to it in the interim between "now" and MAC time. Maybe the role of Theice shifts from necropolis to mage haven, or just continues being an isolated city of undead and necromancers, none of which are likely to be interested in scientific developments outside of automatic wrist-cutters and less foul-smelling embalming fluids.

Likewise, the "other side of the mountains" that makes up northwestern Igala and the associated area (the tundra, Gre'par'th) is pretty much outside the range of my planning right now. I have a feeling that Gre'par'thians, being a relatively small tribe, might go extinct in the face of progress or retreat into the mountains become a potentially independent subset of a larger nation (see Native Americans, Tibet, or similar examples).

Regarding common foreign enemies, Prandia might potentially be on the list, but the one I'm looking at right now is Ka'thalar.

At some point between Gaera present and MAC, Ka'thalar's drow population unites (probably following drow vs. drow religious warfare) and decides that they have had enough of the foreigners in their homeland. Drow, at that point, are a high-magic civilization with little in the way of non-magical technologies. They manage to overcome the surface-dwelling races and conquer the entire landmass of the continent, expunging all other sentient species. However, some drow take great interest in the machines that humans are using and assimilate the research of science and the fruits of industry into their own culture. Utilizing Ka'thalar's rich natural resources, the drow carry out an industrial revolution, supplanted by magic, and develop a new way of life. Aided by their new discoveries, the drow begin to adapt the surface world to support them. Religious divides lead to more internal warring as the high priests and priestesses of drow society (Lolthites in particular) come to percieve these new developments as a threat to their power; the progressive drow masses decide that the new developments are ultimately a benefit and triumph over their indoctrinated and oppressive leaders, creating a new society that blends some remnants of the old religions with new thought.

But the drow cultural tendencies toward highly stratified societies and xenophobia result in a new type of oppression. Industry and capitalism create a situation where exploitation of the working class is the norm, as in 1800's Britain during the real life industrial revolution. The drow as a whole on Ka'thalar trade the yoke of religion for that of the assembly line. Reforms are slow, but they eventually happen. Ultimately, however, the drow as a whole never lose their hatred of other species; drow history teaches that the only good thing men gave the drow was industry, and they had to steal that.

Within the first few centuries of the 2000's, Ka'thalar's natural resources are beginning to wear thin, and using various projections regarding how long existing supplies will last, the drow begin to plan how best to expand and secure new materials. By the middle of the millenium, drow expansionism heads to other continents. War ensues; eventually terrible losses on both sides lead to the drafting of ceasefire agreements. At this point, the drow and the CFIN are in a "cold war" state, each building up weapons stockpiles as both a means of deterrance and in the event of flaring tensions sparking a hot war.

These drow have really gone nuts with technological advances, just as a note; one of the more outrageous things they have accomplished is to build an enormous geodesic dome-like structure that functionally eclipses their entire continent from natural sunlight, which has really done a number on Ka'thalar's ecosystem. Think of it as terraforming the entire surface to be a kind of extension of the caverns. The drow still maintain some "light" areas for certain types of farming, but through both magical and non-magical means drow have engineered things like trees that require no or very limited exposure to light in order to have a source of lumber.

So that should help answer the question of "why do we need an army of giant robots?"

According to existing work, the currently documented MAC Igala stations are A, B, and C, located in Doma, Nekonia, and Valth respectively. I wouldn't be surprised if Baron, given its distance from the other countries, had a MAC Igala "Academy" as well, so I'd say MAC Igala D is located in Baron. I also have an idea for a kind of "unaffiliated" MAC Igala station built on the ruins of the old Gunnir Academy that trains special ops units or "non-military" magitek units; this might include armor-equipped mercenaries.

What else might be noteworthy or worth hammering out in more detail?

Edit: Zero throws out some good points, as well. I definitely agree with the ideas regarding refurbished mecha, the number of "new models," etc. And the nail has been hit on the head regarding why mages still see service in highly mobile person-sized battlesuits; they have mobility and speed that larger mecha lack, even if they don't always have as much raw firepower. <p>
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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Zemyla » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:59 pm

Re: The reason for development of technology:

The main question is, can magical items be mass-produced? If not, then technology would have the advantage in that regard, as they can; you can leave the plant running and producing the equivalent of two hundred men's work under the supervision of one man.

I'm thinking the magical cores of the mecha might be the bottleneck in mecha production. Civilian mecha (unless it's refurbished military ware) would most likely have a natural fuel source as opposed to a supernatural one. And even so, I'm thinking that the military groups would want to strip all the usable magical cores out of defeated enemy mecha, or mecha they return to the open market. <p>-----
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I hereby thank Kai.

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:23 pm

Said territories would be referred to as Imperial Valthi Regulated Zones, or IVRZs.

Like all countries do, even Valth changes over 2000 years' worth of time. First, the Zaphride Incident occurred, and the government realized it couldn't keep magic under wraps with the more and more unusual occurrences happening frequently. It became harder and harder to explain things away, so it was decided, in order to placate the public, to effectively "write" the history of magic--it was effectively "brought into being" when the first major event in the Zaphride Incident occurred.

Following that, and the indoctrination of the rewritten history, the things following were rather shocking. (to be continued when I can, and when I have time and resources) <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=namagomimk0>NamagomiMk0</A] at: 8/29/06 23:40

manganomanda
 

What I envisioned...

Unread postby manganomanda » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:04 pm

What I envisioned was that someone, I thought I wrote the name down somewhere but it might have been in a chat, that discovered magitek and the practicality of it took off. Soon everything was magitek this, magitek that, new wave of the future! A veritable bandwagon that advanced through centuries.

Magitek, useful in home, was amazing on the battlefield and wars got really bloody, really deadly, and people started hating magitek. Then you got factions of mages that said, "Hey, take the tech out of magic. It's unnatural, it's unnecessary and the leading cause of massive fatality. It's destroying the environment. Kids are losing touch, blah blah we hate spark plugs."

Then you got the techs that are like, "Take the magic out of tech. It's old, outdated, without purpose in the advancement of society. It's too complicated and tech is much simpler. Without magic, magitech would be a lot less dangerous and rely on more skilled warriors and soon, wars could be fought with tech alone and reduce the loss of life. Blah blah treehugging pixies give you cancer."

But so when a series of wars, much like the world wars broke out. When the battles played out, the death toll kissed the sky, and morale sucked the joy out of daily life, while the head honchos were duking it out. The minority of people that said. "Hey, let's take the stupid out of war and stop fighting over dumb shit like magitek vs magic vs tech and get to the real issues that are killing people" quickly becamed the majority, booted the encumbents and started MACs to unify the three fronts, at least superficially.

All nations have armies and the Universities are essentially military schools/vocational schools that give nice perks for graduates, like a job, healthcare, and all the cool military shit (as long as there's not a war). Strictly tech schools exist, strictly magic schools exists but I'd wager that strictly magitek schools are rare and frowned upon since magitek is so damn good at killing people and looks good doing so too. Whether or not magitek is any deadlier than the others is contraversial and probably a media cliché.

So, the world was not post-apocalyptic just in a shitty, mess that took a long time, say two to three generations to recover from. I imagine there was a lot of depression, both emotionally and economically for at least a century.

By 3092, the youth could give a rats ass about the great war of 2XXX (unless a movie came out) and most guys look at the MAC universities as a quick way out of their parents house after compulsory school and a good way to start off their far off retirement. Some nations like Valth, probably make military service compulsory.

But somewhere along the line, the MAC Universities became where political and actual wars were fought under the guise of innocent competition. Sure, it's a little fucked up to use young adults as pawns in political chess but the casualty's are lower and the sneaky underhanded shit is a lot easier to hide. Again, I'm sure it's all a media cliché by now.

With that information, I'll leave the particulars of the war up to Brian, because I'm sure it'd be a splendid RP or series of RPs. Since there's no clear winners or losers, bad guys or good guys, it would really just play out like a huge game of risk if it became a big event. The goal would be who dunnit, to whom, and how do I keep from being completely owned.

Really there's a lot of opportunity here. I'd be willing to say that Argovia would be one of the main bitches. Terumahilana and Alahana would probably be firing magitek missiles at each other. I can't see a situation where these two nations would be able to kiss and make up for longer than a century or two before somebody stabbed somebody in the nuts (just to humiliate them). Beau would be fucking rich after a war because they're capitalist pigs and good at it. Dillidan complex would likely be a big fat Austria and you can kiss their ass. That's my general assessment if cultural norms haven't changed radically by this time and the situation is sans political/economic factors. Culturally, I can see them killing each other off.

I've ranted enough!


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Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Kelne » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:03 pm

Looks pretty good. The only major question I'd have would be how the drow of Igala reacted to events of Ka'thalar. I can see the priesthood clamping down in an effort to head off a similar revolution, and likely failing, and I can also see certain of the surface races launching pre-emptive strikes rather than waiting for the drow to come swarming up from their tunnels.

It's worth noting that I see Igalan drow as less numerous, more widely scattered, and more independent than those of Ka'thalar, so I doubt actually conquering the surface would be an option, even if they were united. At least, not without help. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

Archmage144
 

Re: Down in Flames: A MAC history (discussion)

Unread postby Archmage144 » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:19 pm

Basically, my current situation regarding the Igalan drow as a whole is that they're in more or less isolated "pockets" across the continent, with a fairly large number of them living in southeastern Doma's city of Isil. Isil, in particular, has undergone revolution to create a more merit-based society instead of the existing house-based autocracy.

By MAC, Igala's drow have generally pledged some form of loyalty to "the mainland," though they are still viewed with some suspicion; compare Japanese citizens living in American during World War II, though Igala has not seen fit to round up the drow and throw them in internment camps. That could make for an interesting plot arc, though. <p>
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