While I'm at it, thoughts on Gwa'Aag

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Kelne
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While I'm at it, thoughts on Gwa'Aag

Unread postby Kelne » Tue May 30, 2006 1:11 am

I should probably be kept an eye on, otherwise before you know it I'll start posting Thoughts on Doma. We'll see how long before people notice that Charles has been replaced by a duly elected representative of the Mind Flayers.

Anyhow, on with the thoughts.

I tend to see orks as a nomadic culture, with permanent settlements being a matter of convenience for trading, and very much the exception. Hence, I rather suspect Gwa'Aag occupies a larger area than the distinctly weedy territory shown on the map.

Whatever source you go by, orks are a warrior culture, and tend towards rule by the strongest. Which isn't to say that the weak don't have their place. If anything, they're even more motivated to claw out a position of at least moderate respect and tenaciously defend it against all comers.

While violent, orks are not necessarily evil. Sure they'll duff ya over and take ya stuff, but they won't gripe about it if you do the same to them. There's no glory to be found in beating up an obviously weaker opponent, so one-sided slaughters aren't all that common.

One of the things I like about Gaeran drow is that they've got a small, neatly defined pantheon of their own. I'd like to see something similar for the orks. Even if they're not overly religious in their day to day lives, a culture's pantheon says a good deal about it. My personal picks are the following gods for a nice round figure of three:

Numian - God of battle and possibly, according to some sources, creator of the orks. Numian embodies the typical orkish mindset to a great degree. Formal worship of Numian is rare, but any good scrap (of which there are many) could be construed as a form of worship.

Kazeros - God of freedom. At first glance, an outsider might be confused at Kazeros' position in the ork pantheon, but as a nomadic people with a loose hierarchy at best, personal freedom is an important part of orkish culture.

Loki - God of trickery and, let's face it, the odd god out in the pantheon. While brute strength tends to rule in ork society, there are also those who get their way through low cunning. And who better to serve as the patron of such underdogs than Loki? If nothing else, Loki serves as an important balance for Numian.

And that ought to do for now. I open the floor to comments. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Kai
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Re: While I'm at it, thoughts on Gwa'Aag

Unread postby Kai » Tue May 30, 2006 2:12 am

These are always interesting to read, and it's good to have some speculation about these cultures. They don't get used enough, and any attention they get is good.

I think what you've laid out is pretty logical. The only questions I have are nitpicky ones as far as most RPing goes, and are purely academic.

What kind of kinship structure do they have in Gwa'Aag? Matrilineal, patrilineal? Who's in charge? Men or women?

On the one hand, the glory in being stronger would suggest men being in charge, but if we're going to give them the "primitive" (I'd give that bigger quotes if I could) vibe, matriarchal would also work. After all... anyone who'd proven themselves strong enough could be the father of a child, but the mother is generally easy to identify. There's less to keep track of that way.

I'd bet on polygamy as well. Seems like a good way to take care of weaker members of society when there isn't always as much of a place for them. Big powerful orc ends up with many wives (or husbands!) to take care of, ensuring that everyone can offer something.

Thoughts in reply to thoughts! <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Kelne
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Re: While I'm at it, thoughts on Gwa'Aag

Unread postby Kelne » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:48 pm

Well, after what's probably a bit much pondering, I have a few answers on that. Matrilineal family ties do seem the way to go, for the ease of keeping track of such things, if nothing else. Any orc will have a large extended family to help raise them, with help from the tribe at large if need be.

I don't think parentage is particularly important, as far as inherited power goes. Any orc has to be able to stand on their own, and trying to get special treatment based on who your parents are is a good way to get laughed out of the tribe.

Polygamy I'm a bit divided on. On the one hand, it does make a certain amount of sense, in that the number of spouses you have reflects your prestige, while on the other, it's a bunch of extra mouths to feed. I suspect that customs, including marital customs, would vary between tribes. Power structures too, come to that.

I should also point out that 'weak orc' is a comparative term. Unless actually crippled, even the weakest of orcs is considerably stronger than your average human, and more than capable of looking after themself, even if they may be pretty far down in the pecking order.

Orcs are also, I would think, very big on tests of manhood and the like at the end of adolescence. No doubt the plains of Gwa'Aag are well stocked with ferocious predators for youngsters to try themselves against, though again the nature of the ritual would vary between tribes.

Enough for now; work. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Re: While I'm at it, thoughts on Gwa'Aag

Unread postby pd Rydia » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:38 pm

Gets the thumbs up from me. <p>
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Re: While I'm at it, thoughts on Gwa'Aag

Unread postby Jak Snide » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:38 am

I did read this and approve! Just didn't have anything to add beyond "good show, old bean!"


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Politics

Unread postby Kelne » Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:37 am

Politics

Although every ork tribe is a law unto itself, they do more or less bow to the authority of the Warlord. The Warlord rules for life, or until someone stronger displaces him. Typically, upon the death of the reigning Warlord, each tribe will send representatives to attend the funeral, festivities, and selection of a new Warlord. Said selection, naturally, involves a hefty dose of trial by combat, though there are other tests as well.

The Warlord can be removed from office at any time by rite of combat. In order to prevent him from constantly having to deal with an unending stream of upstart challengers, anyone who wants to oust the Warlord first has to defeat at least three of his Shieldbearers (frequently the Warlord's favourite drinking buddies). Anyone who challenges the Warlord and loses doesn't get a second chance.

It's a rare thing for the tribes of Gwa'Aag to act with one purpose. In theory, the Warlord commands the loyalty of all the tribes, but unless he's planning some grand conquest, this is seldom enacted. Again in theory, he is able to enter into binding treaties with other nations, which his subjects must adhere to.

In practice, however, if the rest of the orks don't like the way the Warlord's running things, they're likely to turf him out of office. A new Warlord is not considered bound by any agreements made by the old one, to the unending despair of other nations trying to forge some kind of lasting treaty or favourable trading agreement with Gwa'Aag. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Re: Politics

Unread postby Ash Fanrico » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:03 am

>.>.... why don't i alway see/find this kind of stuff till it's too late?

*is the creator of Gwa'AAG and all*

Pretty good suggestions Kelne. I'm flattered and a bit honored that you've put this much thought behind this place.

I guess i have been pretty lax with GwaAAG as of late, but who can blame me? GwaAAG isn't exactly a hotspot/popular place for rps. Least when i was active. >.>;; *has tried before to start GwaAAG rps, to no avail*

-Stuff I'd like to mention-

-Politics, Ork-style-
Well, if im not mistaken, Da Bosses ARE pretty much the top warlords of those territories. The Biggest and Baddest and Most Respected of the orks. I always saw them as the gathered representatives of the three major areas. *had some of this crap typed down in here (as in THE forum) somewheres* They may not be the most compassionate of people, but they do look out for their home turfs and territories... and do have a general caring for the well being of the people as a whole. Keeping the masses happy and drunk and whatnot means that there's less a chance of Da Bosses being taken down by the common folks they lord over.

It's also not that hard to please an ork. Usually involves meat and alcohol, in large amounts.

Now that doesn't discount the possibility of subordinates, henchmen, gang leaders, enforcers, and little wannabe warlords through out GwaAAG. Almost all of them vying for a top spot...

-Reli[/u]-
I always saw my take on the orks as a more tribal shamanistic sort of religion, seperate from those of the "Pinkie-Skins." With different dieties and totems and whatnot than what is considered "traditional" Gaeran religion. To me, at least, it makes sense... for them to have developed their cultural beliefs divergent from humans, elves, etc. as it just doesn't make sense, to me, for a majority of orks (taking into account possible converts to other religions) to follow the same religion and beliefs of groups of people who tend to outcast them, villify them, etc.

-The "Nomadic Thing"-
I've meant to address this before, (but nobody seemed to care then) but GwaAAG isn't the be all end all location and home for all Orcs. There are nomadic tribes who still follow the old ways and whatnot, that or just weren't the "permanent settlement" type. They tend to be the more aggressive and hostile type of orc (or at least more aggressive than the usual ork is on any given day). They tend to try and not congregate with GwaAAG too much, but they DO know they can go there if need be, mostly for trade with their blood bretheren, whom they prefer to trade with.
--------

Not disputing anything you said here Kelne, just putting forth some stuff that I felt needed to be mentioned, maybe help out a bit hopefully. Maybe combine some of these things or something... i dunno. I'm just still surprised that GwaAAG's gotten some attention from an outside source. <p>"I don't mind being ogled, ridiculed,
Made to feel miniscule,
If you consider the source, it's kinda pitiful.
The only thing you really know about me is...
...that's all you'll ever know"-- Slipknot "My Plague"</p>

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Re: Politics

Unread postby Kelne » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:29 am

Well, while I'd agree that orcs are a shamanistic people, this doesn't necessarily preclude worship of the gods. They might not call upon them often, favouring local spirits and the like for day to day stuff, but I can certainly see them calling on the gods before large battles or other important occasions.

The gods, after all, exist. To deny them simply because their enemies worship them smacks of an inferiority complex, which I don't see as having any place in the orkish psychological makeup. In fact, I can see orks looking down on other races because they go whining to the gods over every little thing. "Make our crops grow," "Bless our children," "Guide us to justice," and so forth.

If anything, I think it works the other way around, with gods specifically worshipped by the orks not being so popular amongst their neighbours. Aside from Curatori Faiyar, Numian doesn't seem to have any large followings elsewhere. It's also entirely probable that the gods are known by a dozen different names, depending on which tribe you talk to.

I had a bunch of stuff written up about international relations, but that can wait for a time that isn't late at night. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Re: Politics

Unread postby pd Rydia » Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:26 pm

"I had a bunch of stuff written up about international relations, but that can wait for a time that isn't late at night."



Bump.


Also, what Kai said.


[edit] Does the Warlord tribe function like a normal tribe? Does it wander Gwa'AAG nomadically, or stick within Central Gwa'AAG for easier locating? Or perhaps even keep a permanent address? Maybe a schedule of movement? <p>
<div style="text-align:center">dictionary.com | encyclopædia dramatica</div></p>Edited by: pd Rydia&nbsp; Image at: 7/2/06 15:49

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International Relations

Unread postby Kelne » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:20 am

Kalshana - Orcs and elves have never really gotten along, which is hardly unexpected, given their fundamentally different outlooks on life. Elves regard orcs as uncultured savages, while orcs see them as stuck-up wimps.

All things considered, it's probably a good thing there's a mountain range between them. Nevertheless, a Warlord who declares war on Kalshana can generally count on popular support. Knowing that facing an orcish horde in open battle is a recipe for disaster, the elves keep the Shuman passes well garrissoned, and avoid taking the fight to the enemy. After all, the orcs can afford casualties far better than they can.

The Dwarven Holds - As a race who set great stock in their word, and the keeping of oaths down through the generations, dwarves tend to take a dim view of the orcish tendency to ignore or, worse, forget the oaths of their forebears. Although there is little direct contact between the dwarven holds and Gwa'Aag, dwarven history is replete with examples of orcish oathbreaking and treachery.

For their part, the orcs respect the dwarves' prowess in battle, but find them far too dour and obsessed with the past. Perhaps their most obvious common ground is their appreciation for alcohol.

Theice - Gwa'Aag's one and only contact with Theice was when the Warlord Rakbar marched into the wastes of the penninsula at the head of an army. Just what drew the Warlord into such a campaign is unknown. Perhaps tales had reached him of a great foe, or great treasure. Perhaps he wanted to expand his influence into uncharted territory. Or perhaps he marched at the bidding of another.

The truth of the matter will likely never be known, for neither Rakbar nor any member of his army ever returned. Today, the orcs regard the Theician penninsula as a barren waste, cursed by gods and spirits alike. It is no place for the living. The Theicians, of course, are quite happy to have this belief persist, for it guarrantees their privacy.

My notes on other neighbours are a bit more limited.

The Woodlands, I suspect, represent the southern limit of the orcish tribes' range. Due to an abundance of potentially valuable lumber, the northern regions would potentially be contested territory, but woods are not an orc's favoured ground, and the local spirits (read: fae) would not be on their side.

Avon, populated as it is by demons, will probably never achieve good relations with Gwa'Aag. Demons, after all, can't be trusted. Every zoggin' idiot knows that. Even now, abutting tribes are no doubt agitating for war. Just what kept the orcs from overrunning the Jitsuko, Avon's previous inhabitants, is unknown. Avon continues to hold many secrets.

Baron's history will no doubt be punctuated with clashes with the orcs, but very seldom with either nation committing the full might of its armies. Things have been reasonably peaceful between the two for some time now, and some trade takes place. Some even dare hope that the example of the civilised Baronians may influence the orcs for the better, though of course there are always a few renegades who'd rather do a bit of raiding than trade. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

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Re: International Relations

Unread postby pd Rydia » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:23 pm

Here's my take on the orc-usagijin relations.

Usagijin tribes are ruled by intellectuals, so anyone in the elite or ruling class or otherwise content with rule are going to poo-poo on any orc but one who breaks out of the stereotype most fantastically...and maybe those, too. Anyone fully indoctrinated in this are going to go along.


However, this is a new trend of government, and perhaps not entirely suited to the people. Usagijin tend toward aggression and territorialness by nature, something which isn't given a lot of outlet in your typical classroom. This is addressed somewhat--it's as common for an usagijin to be trained in martial arts the way we are taught to read in the U.S. (ostracization for not knowing how to do it and do it well enough applies as well). Tournaments are held officially, but not frequently enough so that sparring between acquaintances occurs to make up the difference.

Also, before the current government type the rule was singularly militant; there are still those wanting to return to the "good ol' days." Each tribe can rule anyway they choose, although they face the ostracization and hostility of the other tribes for it. It's going to be more comfortable for these tribes to be on the outskirts of the woodlands.

POINT BEING: Usagijin like to fight. Orcs like to fight. There are enough usagijin with reason to be discontent with their place in society to either ignore their training in "dumb is dumb," or those who never bought it in the first place. So you'll have some bunnies who are best friends with orcs, and some who are best enemies.


ALSO ALSO: I wrote up some descriptions about Gwa'AAG on the MUSH. It included making shit up. You should go into the MUSH (on a client, not telnet, FFS) and double-check everything to make sure nothing is contradictory/impossible, or add anything you want. <p>
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Ash Fanrico
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Re: International Relations

Unread postby Ash Fanrico » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:09 am

Wow... cool stuff you two. ^^

Yeah, orcs have a huge population level, probably moreso than most nations it shares the continent with...

More stuffs from lil' ol' me, to throw onto the table.

-Edu-macation-
Now I always seen this differently than most. Granted there are quite a few lame-brained orcs running about... probably about 85-90% of the population that are at perhaps a pre-school level of education, or slightly above that.

But the other percentage I see as pretty smart, and at times even big time intellectuals. So obviously these types are in charge of handling trade deals and whatnot... or own businesses within the major cities. The main orcish export is alcoholic beverages, in case you were wondering "What the hell would the world want from a buncha orcs?"

Orcs import mainly scrap metals, and fabrics. Not to mention some food, like breads, and vegetables. They have a big populace to feed. Which could possibly explain why so many orcs choose to travel about and scrounge up whatever they can find to make a living. Be it hunting, raiding, or... otherwise.

-Tribes-
There are indeed tribes. It'd make sense, since all orks didn't originate in GwaAAG, it basically started out, long time ago, (talking a few centuries) as a loose confederation of orkish tribes who came together to better ensure the safety of their peoples, abundant lands to feed/shelter their kin and band together should the "pinky skins," "pointy ears," or "fat beards" try and harass them for whatever reason.

GwaAAG, as nation and whatnot, basically grew out of this.

-Relations-
GwaAAG is filled with orks, they fill out about 95.5% of the populace within GwaAAG. So they, as a race, have not had the best in reputations in other parts of the world. Some of this is not unfounded, given what orks are at time wanton to do.

The only real group that recieves the majority of hostility from most orks are Elves. Which isn't surpising given the history betwen the two races.

But that doesn't stop Elves from coming into GwaAAG, and the majority of these elves can be found within the area known as the "Greenie Fields," where most other races find the least amount of hostility. There's even a jointly-owned bar, "Dreena Stop," run by an orc, an elf and a dwarf.

GwaAAG perhaps has the best relations, so far, with Doma, where GwaAAG's largest amount of trade occurs, and other such commerce.

The rest... is a bit sketchy and at most... decent in terms of relations.


-Note: The only place that Da Bosses have no real control or jurisdiction over is that one area in Riva that is predominantly populated by orks, Blarhg, though a great deal do come from GwaAAG, and vica versa. So most of your average orkish warlord types would probably originate from places like this, as Da Bosses aren't too keen on rivals within their territories, it could harm their powerbases, their families, etc. so they have little patience with those who stir up such types of trouble within GwaAAG.

Such things usually end with Da Bosses either A) trying to absorb them into their councils or military, where they can be controlled to an extent or B) just simply killing them and forgoing any more possible problems in the near to distant future. Image

Hope this is at least a bit helpful. Image <p>"I don't mind being ogled, ridiculed,
Made to feel miniscule,
If you consider the source, it's kinda pitiful.
The only thing you really know about me is...
...that's all you'll ever know"-- Slipknot "My Plague"</p>

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Unread postby pd Rydia » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:26 pm

http://mysidia.org/rpgww/Gwa%27aag

I've been working on the wiki after digging up MUSH descriptions, and have fallen on a Briefly/History/Today-current events/Misc set up for Gaera Nations, to try to give some unity to the pages. This resulted in some pretty drastic C&P, and a little rewriting, so I wouldn't mind some opinions. After a while, I stop reading in context and kinda glaze over and miss it when things stop making sense.

There's stuff on the talk page, too, which I might or might not add to that page or another.


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