Hay you guyz

[Archmage144]

For those of you who were following the OMG DRAMA in the character closet about Kai's Philsys sheet for Myrnal, I thought you might like a little more information about what's going on. I know I wanted some.

So I was talking to Nama, who was expressing how he was frustrated and how GMing was hard:

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Arch mage144: So, everything working out?
T3chn0Namagomi: Yeah.
T3chn0Namagomi: Though...>.< I am rather irritated at the lynch mob that came to harass Kai.
Arch mage144: GMing is hard, isn't it?
T3chn0Namagomi: A total pain in the ass in some cases
Arch mage144: Me too. But then, I dunno who else was in on it aside from Shini, who was opening his mouth for no reason.
Arch mage144: "HAW HAW YOUR SHEET IS FUNNY"
T3chn0Namagomi: Shini IMed me telling me that many people were telling him about how "screwed up" it is.
Arch mage144: "Many people."
T3chn0Namagomi: Yeah.
Arch mage144: Did they say how it was screwed up? Or name names?
T3chn0Namagomi: No, he didn't.
T3chn0Namagomi: He mentioned the loot and the chainmail, but that's it
Arch mage144: Statement doesn't really hold a lot of water then, does it?
Arch mage144: "The loot."
Arch mage144: Because none of his characters have magical gear.
Arch mage144: No one's do. No one.
T3chn0Namagomi: Kamos somewhat does, but not a magic weapon
T3chn0Namagomi: Besides...I don't see how an extra 1d6 damage is that much.
Arch mage144: It's not.
T3chn0Namagomi: And, yeah. If she went all-out...she could possibly run out of TP halfway through one fight.
Arch mage144: Dude, Janda has a bunch of magic stuff.
T3chn0Namagomi: She's not going to GAIN much TP thanks to her STA, and thus she'll remain quite limited.
Arch mage144: She's more balanced than a lot of older characters are.

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And I decided to IM Pervy and find out what the hell was going on. I figured he'd know--I got the impression he might be among the "lots of people." I wanted to find out what the specific complaints were.

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Arch mage144: Hey, you.
SongstressEnlil: *Aloha*
Arch mage144: What's up?
SongstressEnlil: *None too much.*
Arch mage144: So I see.
Arch mage144: I am curious about something; perhaps you can satisfy my curiosity.
SongstressEnlil: *I can try*
Arch mage144: Supposedly there were "lots of people" who "had complaints about Kai's screwed up Philsys sheet."
SongstressEnlil: *::Nods::*
Arch mage144: I was wondering if you were one of them. Or if you knew who else was. I have no names, you see, just some vague complaints and lots of pointless rudeness.
Arch mage144: Because I never did find out specifically what the problem was.
SongstressEnlil: *I am. But I have no intention of getting in on that argument. Others can handle it much more effectively than I.*
Arch mage144: None of them are here. I want you to speak for them. Mostly because no one has ever told me what the problem is in the first place.
Arch mage144: And there's got to be more than what's been said.
Arch mage144: Because if the only problems were "chainmail is loud" and "hiding in plain sight is bullshit," the problems are fixed.
Arch mage144: It's deeper than that.
SongstressEnlil: *::Nods:: I'd speak with Shini, he can convey it the best, I think.*
Arch mage144: He isn't here.
Arch mage144: I don't think he can "convey it best."
Arch mage144: All he has done so far to "convey it" is said "this is a joke, your character is bullshit, where is your real sheet?"
SongstressEnlil: *Well, wait for him to show up.*
Arch mage144: I do not call that eloquence.
Arch mage144: I want to know why you won't talk to me.
SongstressEnlil: *Mostly because I am done with all the arguing. You'll notice how I almost never post in OOC anymore? That's because I don't get involved anymore unless I feel my presence is truly required. I don't think it is here.*
Arch mage144: I'm asking for your opinion. Because it is apparently the opinion of "lots of people."
SongstressEnlil: *I've given my opinion as much as I feel like going into it. I agree with the idea what the character is, as it stands, rather silly and fairly broken. I don't feel like arguing any further right now. I'm sorry.*
Arch mage144: I don't want to argue.
Arch mage144: I want to know why.
Arch mage144: No one has explained the problem to me or to anyone else.
Arch mage144: Because you are sitting here and insulting a character that I find very credible. Is my opinion worthless to you?
SongstressEnlil: *Your entire tone strikes me as someone looking to argue, AM. And I don't feel like it.

Just be patient, and someone more willing will do so.*
Arch mage144: You are right under one interpretation of the word "argue."
Arch mage144: None of the people being attacked have been given a chance to defend themselves. At all. The RPer in question included.
Arch mage144: And no one is explaining to me what is wrong. If anyone is trying to start an argument, it's you and the others that keep using words like "silly," "broken," "ridiculous," "implausble," and "screwed up."
SongstressEnlil: *Just be pateint, someone more interested in arguing than I am will show up.

Also, I've just learned that Reako's is at BW's, so I'ma head up that way in any event.*
SongstressEnlil: **Reako*
Arch mage144: Fine. Be a wall. Be part of the "conspiracy," the reason so many good people have left this forum. At this rate, I might become one of them.
Arch mage144: Call me a hate-monger and an argument-crazed fool.
SongstressEnlil: *Sorry I think I have better things to do with my time than argue over something I don't feel like arguing about.

Anyways, check ya later.*
Arch mage144: See you

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That was unproductive. Apparently, I have no credibility anymore, and Pervy won't talk to me because I'm just spoiling for a fight.

Finally, Shini logs on.

-----------------------------------------

Arch mage144: Yo, Shini.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Hello!

I must appologize, things were blown out of proportion yesterday due to my being harassed on several ends about Kai's sheet while trying to do other things.*
Arch mage144: I accept your apology. I don't want to argue with you.
Arch mage144: Though I just had a conversation with Pervy that really pissed me off.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *This is new?*
Arch mage144: Nah, not really.
Arch mage144: Though I honestly thought he was more reasonable.
Arch mage144: Apparently, some indefinably large group of people that I know the names of none of and don't actually know how many there are think that Kai's sheet for Myrnal is "ludicrous bullshit," "silly," "broken," "a very funny joke," and all kinds of other fairly insulting things.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I can see why he mightg have a problem- Later on, it looks like she ends up just basically being stealth constantly.

Also: Dances while fighitng? You stole Nezetta gig, man!*
Arch mage144: Because I helped her convert the sheet, so apparently I'm no longer a credible Philsys GM.
Arch mage144: The always sneaky thing is meant to be hilarious almost more than it is useful. It can be pushed back a few ranks, even.
Arch mage144: Is that the only problem people have? Because no one has bothered to tell me what's wrong.
Arch mage144: I accepted the chainmail thing. She's not wearing full mail, just a shirt. So that ought to clear it up.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Mm.*
Arch mage144: And hide in plain sight does not work the way it initially seemed to, so I think the clarification that was in order has been made.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I'll loook things over again when I havn't just woken up from fairly restless sleep; I'll get back to you.*
Arch mage144: Let me assure you of one thing regarding that ability...
Arch mage144: You can't run down the street in broad daylight and be invisible. =P
Arch mage144: It basically just lets you use shadows as effective cover for the purposes of hiding.
Arch mage144: Anyway, you can get back to me after you have a chance to read the thing over again...but...
Arch mage144: I'm really rather upset with the whole situation. Because no one ever clearly explained what was wrong. And no one will.
Arch mage144: Pervy stonewalled me earlier. Gave me a lot of bullshit about how "Shini can explain better than I can. I don't want to argue. Etc"
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Yeah, see, he was one of the people who started IMing me and demanding I do something about it when I was trying to help Sarah in WoW.*
Arch mage144: ...uh huh.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *So of course it ended up being "Fine, if you stop bothering me*
Arch mage144: Wow.
Arch mage144: So wait.
Arch mage144: Pervy IMed you before you had even looked at the sheet?
TheWaiChibiAngel: *He IMed me telling me to look at the sheet, and pointed out some of his beef with it.

his main beef is that, in all honesty, it seems kind of skewed. She comes in with some damned nice equipment at level 4 with techs that all revolve around Ninjutsu, when she has other things she can do.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I forget the term Pervy used, but he said something about a DND term for a game set up just for treasures and exp on the part of the PCs and more or less accused you of it.*
Arch mage144: I see.
Arch mage144: So Pervy doesn't trust me anymore.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Pervy doesn't trust anyone anymore.*
Arch mage144: What a jackass.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Don't get me wrong, he's like a brother.

But BW and I were reluctant to let him into our room at Sugoicon for that very reason.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *The man loves to feel like he's right.*
Arch mage144: That equipment's not really all that much better than anything I would give out normally--nor is it really any better than anyone else has. And as far as EXP goes, by the by--she was in 16 sessions. I typically give out 400 PS RP a session, on average...
Arch mage144: She'd be more than level 4 if it were a straight conversion, but level 4 was my suggestion to her as what was fair. She definitely didn't want to be more powerful than more established characters.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nods: I respect this greatly.*
Arch mage144: Hold on a minute.
Arch mage144: I'm going to log from FFXI.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I think that's Pervy's other beef. Not nessessarily with you, but he likely thinks this will lead to other people being like "Oh, I used this character in my old Tabletop game years back, so they should be epic level by now"*
Arch mage144: You should ask Pervy how many special exceptions to the rules I was willing to make for him. Because it was "in character."
Arch mage144: Ushyu in combat. Giving Enlil a free sword with +3/+3 to AT/PA at first level, effectively six free skill points.
Arch mage144: Letting Millenia Break fly as a tech at all.
Arch mage144: Of course no one can just show up and say "oh by the way this is my old tabletop character."
Arch mage144: This is Ash telling me "these RPGWW people are awesome, I want to RP with them" and my helping her do it.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Really, don't get me started on Enlil.*
Arch mage144: I won't, trust me.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *He and I have butted heads on that particular subject enough.*
Arch mage144: I am aware.
Arch mage144: Look, I respect you. Nez still drives me nuts, but that's a minor deal. =P
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I wasn't aware she drove you nuts :-(*
Arch mage144: But Pervy is this close to driving me away from RPGWW, because every time I do anything he acts like I'm some has-been who's lost all community credibility. And there's supposedly a legion of people that agree, but none of them ever have names.
Arch mage144: Eh, we can talk about that later. XD
TheWaiChibiAngel: *That would be nice; I like to know when characters irritate people for non-IC reasons.


IC reasons would lead to constant IMs about Tareen.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *But I'll talk to Pervy about it.*
Arch mage144: I already tried to talk to him.
Arch mage144: >_>;
TheWaiChibiAngel: *You, my friend, are not me.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I have a way of talking to Pervy.*
Arch mage144: He acted like he knew nothing. Like he was backed by everyone in the world, but you could express the brilliant opinion of the masses.
Arch mage144: I hope so, because just trying pissed me off.
Arch mage144: He was being a real dick.
Arch mage144: Oh, anyway, Nezetta. If you've got the time. *laughs* Keep in mind I think I've only been in one RP with her.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nods: Shoot.*
Arch mage144: I dunno. She's just uncharacteristically grating. I don't know if it's rudeness or what. Characters can be rude, that's cool and all.
Arch mage144: But she had some air that bugged me, and she was being followed around by some ass-buddy squire played by Bes, and somehow that exacerbated the problem.
Arch mage144: I was like "why is she in this adventuring party at all? She thinks everyone else is trash and keeps ordering people around and complaining."
TheWaiChibiAngel signed off at 5:24:23 PM.
TheWaiChibiAngel signed on at 5:24:44 PM.
Arch mage144: WB
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Computer crashed; I missed whatever you said after I said "Shoot."*
Arch mage144: K'
Arch mage144: I dunno. She's just uncharacteristically grating. I don't know if it's rudeness or what. Characters can be rude, that's cool and all. I have rude characters.
Arch mage144: But she had some air that bugged me, and she was being followed around by some ass-buddy squire played by Bes, and somehow that exacerbated the problem.
Arch mage144: I was like "why is she in this adventuring party at all? She thinks everyone else is trash and keeps ordering people around and complaining."
TheWaiChibiAngel: *She's arrogant and elitist. Or was, at the time.*
Arch mage144: Did that change?
Arch mage144:
TheWaiChibiAngel: *That was right after she came to Doma, after growing up in Barius.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *And we all know pleasant Barians are supposed to be.


And yeah, it changed a lot.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *She's still condescending, but she's had the air of arrogance taken out of her by several things.*
Arch mage144: I gotcha.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Nezetta's one of those characters where I like them enough that I can't have them running around being an arrogant idiot a lot of the time, so I let stuff happen to them to make them like "Oh. I'm not as cool as I thought I was. Darn it."*
Arch mage144: Yeah, that should happen. I did it to Hak. It was good for him.
Arch mage144: Still arrogant? You bet. A total prick? Nah.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Yeah. Last RP Nezzy was in, she actually just about died due to manaburn and a lich having it out for her, just because she pushed herself too hard to be impressive.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *She's also got her boyfriend in town now, when he's around, she's actually pleasant.*
Arch mage144: Ouch.
Arch mage144: *laughs*
Arch mage144: Hey, do me a favor.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *As for Shada, that was back when Bes and I were still like "So...What is this relationship, exactly?"

Yeah?*
Arch mage144: Anyone else besides Pervy that had complaints?
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Kyle.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *He was doing the same thing, and I'm willing to bet Pervy told him to do it*
Arch mage144: Ah. So "you," Pervy, and Kyle are the "lots of people."
TheWaiChibiAngel: *That's the extent of it.

Sarah may be jaded about it because I talked to her and Bes about it without really knowing what I was talking about. Bes seems to have come around.*
Arch mage144: I hope Bes didn't take my irritation too pesonally.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *He did, but it's not your fault.*
Arch mage144: I think the whole situation was damned stupid. If someone had clearly expressed a problem to either me or Kai we could've fixed it.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *He's been taking things really personally lately.*
Arch mage144: Unfortunately, I spent all day in class and posted in class when I could squeeze it in.
Arch mage144: And I can't be on AIM in class, it eats my battery too quickly to even be using a browser if I have no outlet.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Your battery sucks :-(*
Arch mage144: I mean, if there're further problems, they're correctable--I'm the one to go to about system problems, because all Kai did was create the character a year ago in D&D.
Arch mage144: Oh, and the word you're looking for is Monty Hauling. That's when you give your players tons of money and treasure arbitrarily.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *If I may make one suggestion?

Take off the "+Number" on the weapon.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *That's the one.*
Arch mage144: Yeah, sure. It's just semantics, I guess.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Seriously. Take of the +Number ont he weapons, and Pervy'll think it was fixed.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I should say "fixed"*
Arch mage144: If seeing +s on weapons causes Pervy to froth at the mouth, he has real issues.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *He doesn't like it in reference to Gaeran weapons.*
Arch mage144: Who the fuck cares? We just copied the more important items on her sheet. We left a lot of stuff off because she didn't need it.
Arch mage144: Mostly potions, scrolls, etec.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Oh, I know.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Idran helped me make my first DnD character a couple weeks back, I know how much swag they could very well have.*
Arch mage144: They will now read "Enchanted..." etc.
Arch mage144: Instead of + whatever.
Arch mage144: 'cause they are magical. That should be noted.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *That should be okay.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Well, yeah.*
Arch mage144: Pervy has fucking D&D phobia. It has no basis in anything.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Actually, he's in the same thing I am. Idran runs it fridays.*
Arch mage144: She would never call it her +1 whatever in character. She just calls them her knives.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I think Priam talked him into it.*
Arch mage144: It's 2e. Pervy, for some reason, finds 2e less bad.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Ah. Fair enough.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Also, I'm too tired at the moment to read, and I have to begin packing. Was the complete invisability thing addressed? Because that's what got the biggest "WTF" out of me.

Not in a Pervy magnitude, but it was more of a "...How?"*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *As Jak said.*
Arch mage144: The invisibility tech hasn't been addressed at length, mostly because it's not something she can actually do yet.
Arch mage144: But I was thinking a ki-activated alchemical powder or something.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Well, the problem with that is that in Gaera, popular oppinion states that Ki falls under a form of magic. I know Bes had to retool Jeridan because of it.*
Arch mage144: Yeah, I know. I talked to Jak about this earlier.
Arch mage144: I made that ruling--and I remember why.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nods:*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Otherwise, Ki is a way of throwing fireballs without magic.*
Arch mage144: The reason is that a martial artist shouldn't just be able to pull tricks out of their ass and call it ki. Especially attacks.
Arch mage144: What seems reasonable to me, though, is allowing some supernatural (thematically fitting) abilities without magic as long as their rank prerequisite is much higher than an equivalent spell.
Arch mage144: An invisibility spell, illusion-magic-wise, is like rank 5 or 6 at most.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nods: I'll need to ponder on it a bit. The current description just shouts "I want to have magic but not the stats for it"*
Arch mage144: It's an ability that can be axed, ultimately.
Arch mage144: It was copied more or less as-is from her D&D Prestige Class. She can't even do it in D&D yet.
Arch mage144: It's a high-level ability of the prestige class--but not that important to the character herself.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nods: I think that several problems would be fixed if it were axed, honestly.*
Arch mage144: It's easily gotten rid of.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I know it's Jak's biggest question with the sheet.*
Arch mage144: He and I talked about it earlier. I gave him the same explanation about rank prereqs.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nodmore:*
Arch mage144: The Perpetual Sneak thing is a less important thing systematically in Philsys.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *See, that, I can't argue with. I know full well that someone gets into the habit of doing stuff long enough and they end up doing it without realizing.*
Arch mage144: It's not really a broken ability as far as I can see, because it doesn't really help that much, but it's high enough rankwise that there's still debate about what it will do.
Arch mage144: Heh.
Arch mage144: If the invisibility is such a sticking point, I don't care--neither does she.
Arch mage144: I think people have done things that are arguably much more ridiculous, though.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Examples?8
TheWaiChibiAngel: *This isn't "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU", note, this is "Shini needs a good laugh"*
Arch mage144: Let me double check something.
Arch mage144: Well, let me rephrase.
Arch mage144: Becoming invisible quote unquote "without magic" is not the most outrageous thing an RPGWW character has been able to do. Griff had that crazy arm. Still does, right? At least a couple people can turn into dragon forms. At one point, Kamos had technomancy and could fire missiles and lasers from his gauntlets by spending TP instead of MP, and that was okay for a very long time. Pervy has a pet rabbit that turns into a crystal and smashes people's faces in, Inverse is a slime-half.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nods:

A pet rabbit who has the potential to turn into a spaceship.*
Arch mage144: Yes.
Arch mage144: That isn't broken or ridiculous. At all.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Oh, no.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Because Pervy did it.*(
Arch mage144: I remember when he made that sheet.
Arch mage144: I remember when he came to the forum. I invited him.
Arch mage144: I remember telling him "you need an explanation as to why your pet cabbit cannot in fact become a starcruiser."
Arch mage144: I'm saving logs of all of the conversations I've had with people today, by the way.
Arch mage144: And I'm going to post everything. Because I'm getting really sick of people having bizarre secrets and complaining about each other behind their backs.
Arch mage144: Why do you think Adam left? Kate? Amanda?
TheWaiChibiAngel: *That's fine.*
Arch mage144: *nods* Glad we're in agreement.
Arch mage144: Let's not let this shit happen in the future. It's dumb.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Of course.*
Arch mage144: Wait, why does GC130A have a character named after the god of hate o.O
TheWaiChibiAngel: *He does?*
Arch mage144: "Nikumu Magde Veigl"
TheWaiChibiAngel: *I had no idea.*
TheWaiChibiAngel: *And have no idea.8
Arch mage144: Me neither! And me neither!
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Also, in that thread of thought of full disclosure, something I've had a discussion with a couple people about.

Should things go well in End of the Chaos, and NPCs don't start getting killed off due to PC stupidity, I'll have two somewhat questionable characters.

One of them is, basically, an android. The other is just a normal Gaeran who suffered an unfortunate accident (At the hands of Shada), who now has a robotic arm to replace the one she lost.*
Arch mage144: Clark had a fucking reploid as his character.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Yeah, I know.*
Arch mage144: Somehow he got away with that.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *This is why I don't feel bad about the android type thing.*
Arch mage144: Yeah, we have to let some weird shit fly in Gaera occasionally. Or things will get boring.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *BUT MINE HAS AN EXPLAINATION!

Offworlder, of sorts. A human personality programmed into a robotic body when the real thing died. Daughter to one of my older villians.

I think it'll be interesting to do in PS, because I've got a way I want to try it.*

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So he proceeded to explain that to me.

I didn't realize until today that "lots of people" meant "3, one of whom was definitely harassed until he agreed with me," but that isn't really the point. I also didn't realize that I was a Monty Haul GM. Nor did I realize that I apparently have no credibility as a GM, no longer understand what fits into Gaera, and have no idea what's balanced in Philsys. It never occurred to me that I was a hateful person that just wanted to fight with peaceful, passive, harmless people. I did not realize that the words "+1 dagger" were a secret trigger implanted by government hypnosis that caused certain people to froth at the mouth and kill people. This is all news to me.

Now, I want one thing to be clear. I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm not looking to stir up more drama. I just want everyone involved to know exactly what happened and why, because the people that were involved know that a lot of tempers flared, blood boiled, and people got upset. I never meant to get as angry as I did, Shini didn't mean to sound as rude as he did, and I'm sorry if I said anything that anyone took personally.

But is this what our community has come to? Secrets and backstabbing? Drama and bullshit, where no one will come out and explain the problem? A Gaera that's owned and policed by people that generally refuse to even be recognized by name? I know that's not what I want. It's not what any of the people that have made this community great want, as far as I can tell.

Why am I posting this? Because I don't want there to be secrets. No more "people agree with me" and "lots of people think this is wrong." No more anonymous backstabbing and nebulous drama. No more people talking shit about each other over AIM with no record for the masses.

Because everyone has a right to know. <p>

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[Idran1701]

Two comments.

1) I am in complete agreement with the general concept of this thread, and although I am fairly certain it will lead to hurt feelings in the short term, I am hopeful that it will do nothing but strengthen things in the long term.

2) Hate to do something potentially interpreted as backtalking an admin, but I want to see this thread stay on the topic of RPing-related issues people have, or I'll move it into Discussion. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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[Nakibe]

To be perfectly blunt, I am kinda disappointed that this sort of thing has happened. Not just for this incident, but potentially in the past as well. Can't say whether it will happen again or has happened more than just this one time, but I will point out one thing.

This sort of bullshit drama is the reason that my old MUGEN community does not currently exist in the same form that it had for the first two years of its life. You may call that evolution, but I call that bullshit. For almost TWO YEARS people managed to keep things civil, and in-bred drama and bullshit tore the community apart to the point where one group of people utterly despised the other, and neither could be seen in the virtual public with the others.

To be honest? This is also the sort of shit that has kept me AWAY from there for the past 3-4 years in general as the old rivalries have neither died down or gone away, but led into a general deterioration of the WHOLE community. It got to the point where no one wanted to MAKE GAMES anymore and instead wanked themselves constantly through "I'm Better Than You" insults and witch hunts and shit like that.

I'm not doomsaying here, and I most CERTAINLY am not trying to blame any party for what has happened, but shit. If it is within my limited power I have NO intention of letting what happened there to happen here. I believe I told Banj this a while back too.

Seriously. Cut it out.

[Archmage144]

Idran: Move it at any point if you think it belongs somewhere else. Your role as a moderator is to make that judgment. <p>

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[Groxley Grunk]

Quote:

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I did not realize that the words "+1 dagger" were a secret trigger implanted by government hypnosis that caused certain people to froth at the mouth and kill people.

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I am totally working that into an NPC for the next D&D campgain I run.

Anyhow, sometimes people need someone to smack them and say "You're being a dickhead." for them to relise that they're... well, being a dickhead. I know I've had to do it to Pervy in the past when I modded the spam forum. He just needs a booster shot, is all.


Also: Hi. I still post here. :D

[Idran1701]

This is just my perspective, but I think part of the problem may be that those in charge of the community are part of the community themselves. Normally, mods and admins would step in to smack down drama when it starts, so as to aid the community as a whole. But when the drama's caused by friends of yours, it's harder to do that. Unfortunately, I don't see any easy solution to this, except for the mods and admins to act with more consideration to a separation between themselves and the community. When it comes to an issue that affects the board as a whole, it seems there should be more putting aside of personal feelings to stop it. Like I said before, it might lead to hurt feelings in the short term but a stronger community in the long term.

However, there's also the problem that even if this was started, there isn't much a mod or admin could do here to stop drama besides talking to the person or persons involved. There aren't many "weapons" in their arsenal here besides the post-edit, post-delete, or ban, and none of those really apply to the situation. Unless admins have other commands available to them that I'm unaware of, of course.

Edit: Not saying we should be trying to do something instead of talking it out, of course. Just that honestly, sometimes that doesn't work, and it'd be nice to have other options rather than just let it spiral further out. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=idran1701>Idran1701</A] at: 10/25/05 20:17

[LadyDragonClawsEDW]

I'm with Shaun on this one, this is...partially the reason why y'all don't see me around as much anymore (the other being VL, not that that place doesn't have it's own league of angst and problems). It started back when Adam and I ran the war RP (which by the reaction we got from "many people", I am sure lead him to eventually abandon the place) and sort of went downhill from there.

Between snide remarks aimed at my stuff, RO, VL, and hearing about all these little secret RPs going on that only certain people are in on, it sort of killed my desire to hang around. The fact that a bunch of the people I enjoyed playing with all but disappeared from the RP scene (in chat at least, I figured I really don't have much of an attention span for board RPs) didn't help either.

So, uh, yeah. I thought we all knew each other well enough to avoid this kind of thing. The internet is the internet, I guess.

Quote:

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TheWaiChibiAngel: *I forget the term Pervy used, but he said something about a DND term for a game set up just for treasures and exp on the part of the PCs and more or less accused you of it.*

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That's called a Monty Haul by the way. <p>--------------------

"If I have to grab a man's ass, you can smile." -Tolaris</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ladydragonclawsedw>LadyDragonClawsEDW</A] at: 10/25/05 21:05

[Idran1701]

Just in my potentially-unnecessary defense: If the secret RP thing is about my AD&D campaign on Fridays, the only reason I originally didn't put out a general character call is because I didn't feel comfortable enough with my DMing ability at the time to make one, especially after how badly I handled the Kohlingen thing during the War. Since I honestly do find myself somewhat separate from a large part of the community (through my own introversion entirely, that is, in no way due to the actions of any others), and I didn't want to subject people that I admittedly don't know that well to my potentially-horrible RPing, I was just holding that to the people that I know best that I thought would be interested in a 2e campaign. Sorry if I've retroactively offended anyone by that, it wasn't intended. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=idran1701>Idran1701</A] at: 10/25/05 20:43

[Archmage144]

No, Idran, I don't think that's what anyone's talking about. I think by secret RPs Kate is referencing a lot of the RPs that Pervy evidently ran pre and post-war that no one except for him and the people that were in them knew about. These RPs were cited as the reason the War "could not happen" because it would somehow screw up canon/the timeline. Additionally, there was something about the "dark sidhe" in there, and I still don't know the full story on what happened with those. <p>

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[Idran1701]

Aha. All right, then, just wanted to clear that up in case it had offended someone. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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[Archmage144]

Oh, yeah, Shini and I talked briefly about me using my adminship as an excuse to cock-slap people into submission to get my way, and he seemed to think I do it occasionally. That's not my intention, people, so let me know if I'm being an ass, but it's best to do so by describing what I'm doing wrong as opposed to saying "you're being an ass" with no further explanation. Though starting off with "you're being an ass" is okay if it'll be elucidated.

The general rule is that I don't really intend to be "the word of teh law" most of the time. If it seems like I'm trying to pull rank on something, it's because I care about whatever it is and it's really important to me. I love this forum and what it stands for, and I'm just trying to protect that. <p>

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[LadyDragonClawsEDW]

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. It really annoyed me to hear that excuse to since whatever the hell was going on clearly wasn't having any obvious effects on anything due to all the secrecy and "quality control".

Nice to know that I'm apparently not quality, despite what an assload of other people say. <p>--------------------

"If I have to grab a man's ass, you can smile." -Tolaris</p>

[Idran1701]

Well, like I said, Brian, I'd rather see pulling of rank to cut out drama than allowing it to fester. I'd hate to see the community be harmed just as much as you, I'd imagine, and sometimes sitting by and letting drama play out is the worst thing you can do.

And Kate, I don't know if this will help any, but I think you and Adam did an awesome job with the war despite the complaints of many. I'm barely aware of even the existence of these "secret RPs" (though I think I remember them coming up before), and yet I was rapt with attention for the plotline of the war. I'd say that being secret just means they're less relevant and less important than what you did, and I hope keeping that in mind will help both of you (if Adam's reading this thread) feel better about its events. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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[PriamNevhausten]

By the by, I wanted to interject this: Credibility is crap. Ideas in their purest form have no owner. Do not get hung up on your status, it is a bad idea. We are all equals here. Anyone can GM, and a few people certainly have over the years who probably should not have. Anyone can play, but they have to play well--a lot of people enjoy my RP styles, it seems, but if I bring a shit character then the history that I have doesn't matter an iota.

Pervy's beef with giving weapons plusses in the name is that Philsys is not D&D. Plusses are okay in D&D, because that's the way it was written, for better or for worse, and the heritage of D&D is in dungeoncrawling anyway so it is vaguely acceptable for things to be a bit less RP-centric by the system's decree. Philsys, on the other hand, is a system-as-an-RP-aid. As such, having people refer to the item as a 'plus three broadsword' just doesn't jive with what the characters themselves would call it.

Don't let Pervy get to you. He is a power whore, much like you and I. We all want control precisely over what we get and what we are and are not involved in, and we most often get it. The unfortunate side effect of this is when two of us disagree, something has to give, and someone almost always ends up frustrated. Demanding that someone listen to you doesn't work. Demanding anything of Pervy doesn't work. There are some constants to which nature simply does not allow flexibility.

Being more acquainted with Pervy and his methods and innerworkings, I offer myself as an interpreter or go-between or sounding board for any time that you two have these fights. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=priamnevhausten>PriamNevhausten</A]&nbsp; at: 10/26/05 2:46

[Kelne]

Huh. I would've thought if there was anyone who wouldn't be affected by the war, it'd be the sidhe. What with being extraplanar and all. If asked prior to today, I would've pointed to Fury of the Storm as the major thing that was disrupted (and even that only flagged some time after the war), though I'm sure there were a couple of other things that sort of fell apart. Whether or not the war was the cause is an open question.

Thinking back on it, I do recall that Pervy would've been running the sidhe campaign about then, though I was unaware it was shrouded in a cloak of deepest secrecy. In fact, I'm sure I saw posts setting up session times for the participants. It was an invitation only thing, but so far as I'm aware this was more in terms of the usual "only people who know such-and-such" sense. Certainly I don't recall any suggestion that Certain People Will Not Be Welcome, and nobody ever cited it as a reason the war shouldn't go ahead in my presence.

Which isn't to say the 'many dissatisfied people' didn't exist. It's just that I recall their concerns being more with certain aspects of how the war was conducted, rather than whether or not it should have gone ahead to begin with. At least once the initial surprise died down. I don't recall some great unified mass, and I'm pretty sure the majority had been genuinely won over by the end. I know I enjoyed myself immensely at times.

I think the most unusual complaint I heard was "why isn't Will dead?" :P

Anyway. I think I've said enough about the war to last me a fair while. And I think others have covered things on the other fronts. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

[Archmage144]

I have to politely disagree, Priam, but at the moment I do not have time to elaborate; I will likely do so later.

The one minor semantic note I will bring up is that despite the fact that the character using D&D-esque notation on her character sheet, never in-character for any portion of the campaign did the words plus-anything get used. They were not an in-character idea, and I would have corrected players that accidentally used them, but that was overall unnecessary. The reason her Philsys sheet was denoted similarily is because the weapons never had actual "names" (the character would not have named them, for the most part, just called them "my knife," "the Valthi stiletto," etc) and it was the easiest way to note that they'd been enchanted and how powerful the enchantment was (+2 to hit/parry and damages, for example)
<p>

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[PriamNevhausten]

This is true, and I completely understand that, as you know I am a big fan of not complicating things unless there's a very, very good reason for it. Pervy, though. I have to give him credit for taking the principle of " 'Good enough' never is" and running with it, but I cannot deny that his thoroughness does get a bit...bothersome...at times. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Archmage144]

A somewhat more complete response than what I gave earlier.

While it could arguably be said that "credibility is crap," consider the way things happen around here--the more seniority someone has, or the more established they are within the community, or the more good RPs they have run in the past, the more likely they are to be able to proceed with new ideas without people being critical of them. This is not necessarily right, but consider the following scenarios:

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A poster shows up, posts an RP as his first post. The RP is not well-thought out and shows no knowledge of the community's standards. The poster is typically corrected and directed to relevant information. If he wishes, he can ignore this and never post again (most do).

A poster shows up, establishes himself, learns about Gaera and the community. He starts an RP, proves that he understands the setting and the community's standards by posting something that seems logical, and everything is fine. He may eventually become an established member of the community and go on to run other RPs.

A well-established poster has run several successful RPs. It is generally established that his ideas have been workable, and he can fully explain things when necessary. When details of the plot or regarding a character are kept secret, it is to avoid plot spoilers, not because no answers exist. He can freely start RPs, because it is generally accepted that the poster will not do anything "stupid," and that the poster can clarify and explain things. The community trusts the poster.

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The first scenario is what happens to most newbies. These newbies do not know anything about RPGWW and are not really interested in learning about the complexities of the community. When presented with the opportunity to do so, they refuse and leave, suggesting that the forum might be better off without them.

The second scenario is what happens with a rare few "good newbies." They show up and do things that suggest that they are interested in understanding RPGWW's RP standards. They are usually good RPers and adjust quickly. They may stick around and become long-term contributing members. Their ideas may be subject to some initial scrutiny, but overall, trust can be placed in their ideas, and this trust is not betrayed--they really are good RPers. Most of the people here today existed at this stage at one point or another.

The third scenario is what should happen with the oldbies on the forum. As long as an idea is not patently ridiculous and does not terribly disrupt the shared world (flying spaghetti monsters taking over Gaera, Godzilla rising from the Val'ri Sea, Igala's entire land mass suddenly vanishing), it should not need to be criticized. These people have established themselves as reasonable, intelligent RPers and GMs. They do not need to be "policed" by one (or more) people to make sure that all of their ideas are "up to standards." The established members of this community should trust one another to come up with plausible plots and characters, explain any criticisms directly to the person in question and in precise, specific terms. If people have concerns to voice, they should do it themselves, not via proxies, and all of the people in question should be named, not described as a vague "large group of people who disapprove." We should be mature about this--people can take constructive criticism (or should be able to). And people being criticized, in some cases, should be able to get off with "there is a good explanation, but I can't tell you right now for plot reasons."

It is not the job of a busybody (or small group of busybodies, or "a lot of busybodies," or whatever) to tell other people what to do regarding RP in Gaera. If someone wants to do something "disruptive," they might want to get permission from someone else depending on what it is (i.e., asking to burn down The Jade Dragon, to see if having dragons destroy part of Gunnir is acceptable, to poison the King of Doma, who is technically a PC, etc), but no one should be running around enforcing "Gaera's integrity" or "Gaeran canon" or whatever. RP, have fun, and we'll sort it out later.

I'd also like to respond to an odd accusation that I have some strange desire to control all of Gaera, or all RP, or all of the forum, or something. I assure everyone that this is not the case. Quite the contrary, I have a very hands-off way of dealing with RP--I want to encourage it as much as possible, and beyond that, it's up to the individuals that make up the forum. RP and be fruitful. Last I checked, unless some newbie posted "hay guyz let's RP we're in a dungeon exits are NORTH SOUTH and DENNIS" in the RP forum, I haven't had much to say about people's RP plots. I don't know where anyone would get the idea I wanted to control anything in that regard.

The one thing I do want to have control over is the RP system, Philsys. Good suggestions will always be taken, complaints should always be voiced, and I always want to hear people's opinions (unless a subject has been beaten to death for ages, like dodging fireballs with AGI). But Philsys, as a standardized RP system for the community, should have one single arbiter. If for some reason, the community as a whole feels that someone else would do the job better, please, feel free to say so. If a large enough percentage of people could agree on someone else to do it and did not feel I was fit for the job, I would gladly step down to allow someone else the priveledge.

So yeah, credibility is crap. It doesn't matter how long you've been around---you can still come up with a bad idea no matter how many good idea you've had. But shouldn't we trust people who have had consistently good ideas to keep doing so in this context? And why are some people (Pervy comes to mind) apparently immune to the criticism they love to dish out? Why do we need a shadow mafia that consists of nebulous, ambiguous groups of people that are supposedly in charge of evaluating the merit of the ideas of RPGWW?

I dare say we don't. And I hate the idea that good RPers--and good people--have left the community because they were sick and tired of being criticized without just cause. <p>

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[pd Rydia]

You know, it was a long time ago that I offered to make the first map for Gaera. I was like, Hey, look at all these cool things people are doing! The Hit! The Future! When the Hit Reaches Its Conclusion! What can I do to help?

From the first map grew the Gaera Guide. From the Gaera Guide, the fanatic obsession with 'canon.' I'm a lot at fault there, I'd say, though what with my drugs, I've calmed down a lot. Enough to see my fault in the matter, and to wish at (several) times that I'd never taken up the project and 'created' this 'monster.'

But seriously.

<small>A poster shows up, posts an RP as his first post. The RP is not well-thought out and shows no knowledge of the community's standards. The poster is typically corrected and directed to relevant information. If he wishes, he can ignore this and never post again (most do).

A poster shows up, establishes himself, learns about Gaera and the community. He starts an RP, proves that he understands the setting and the community's standards by posting something that seems logical, and everything is fine. He may eventually become an established member of the community and go on to run other RPs.

A well-established poster has run several successful RPs. It is generally established that his ideas have been workable, and he can fully explain things when necessary. When details of the plot or regarding a character are kept secret, it is to avoid plot spoilers, not because no answers exist. He can freely start RPs, because it is generally accepted that the poster will not do anything "stupid," and that the poster can clarify and explain things. The community trusts the poster.

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The first scenario is what happens to most newbies. These newbies do not know anything about RPGWW and are not really interested in learning about the complexities of the community. When presented with the opportunity to do so, they refuse and leave, suggesting that the forum might be better off without them.

The second scenario is what happens with a rare few "good newbies." They show up and do things that suggest that they are interested in understanding RPGWW's RP standards. They are usually good RPers and adjust quickly. They may stick around and become long-term contributing members. Their ideas may be subject to some initial scrutiny, but overall, trust can be placed in their ideas, and this trust is not betrayed--they really are good RPers. Most of the people here today existed at this stage at one point or another.

The third scenario is what should happen with the oldbies on the forum. As long as an idea is not patently ridiculous and does not terribly disrupt the shared world (flying spaghetti monsters taking over Gaera, Godzilla rising from the Val'ri Sea, Igala's entire land mass suddenly vanishing), it should not need to be criticized. These people have established themselves as reasonable, intelligent RPers and GMs. They do not need to be "policed" by one (or more) people to make sure that all of their ideas are "up to standards." The established members of this community should trust one another to come up with plausible plots and characters, explain any criticisms directly to the person in question and in precise, specific terms. If people have concerns to voice, they should do it themselves, not via proxies, and all of the people in question should be named, not described as a vague "large group of people who disapprove." We should be mature about this--people can take constructive criticism (or should be able to). And people being criticized, in some cases, should be able to get off with "there is a good explanation, but I can't tell you right now for plot reasons."

It is not the job of a busybody (or small group of busybodies, or "a lot of busybodies," or whatever) to tell other people what to do regarding RP in Gaera. If someone wants to do something "disruptive," they might want to get permission from someone else depending on what it is (i.e., asking to burn down The Jade Dragon, to see if having dragons destroy part of Gunnir is acceptable, to poison the King of Doma, who is technically a PC, etc), but no one should be running around enforcing "Gaera's integrity" or "Gaeran canon" or whatever. RP, have fun, and we'll sort it out later.</small>

Everyone is to read this. Again.
Don't just skip over it. Read it again.


That isn't just what Brian thinks. And personally, you know what? If I had to trust one person out of everyone I know to run this community with his or her good sense, that person would be Brian--because of such statements like the above and his willingness to actually bring stuff like this out into the open. He was made admin for damn good reason.

I was hesitant to type that down, because of the 'political' implications, but fuck it. RPGWW isn't politics. At least not to me, and it never will be. I'm not going to allow myself to make that distinction. I'm also not going to let myself be afraid to show support and respect for an old friend for fear of offending anyone.

I'm not trying to create a schism; I want to show how well I think of Brian. And, maybe it means nothing to you. But if you respect my opinion on RPGWW at all, and don't respect Brian's, I'm saying something is wrong. Cuz we sure do think a helluva lot alike here.

For what it's worth.


Now. Go read that quote. I know you skimmed over it, you jerk. >:


Thanks for bringing this up in a post, Brian. I didn't have the balls to.*

____


*[insert joke] <p>

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<div style="text-align:center">dictionary.com | encyclopædia dramatica</div></p>

[Idran1701]

Much of what Brian said is what I have been thinking for a while, though I have been refraining from posting it for similar reasons as Dia. Though I have to say, I don't think an adherence to canon is bad in and of itself. (Plus, I don't think you need to take on the blame for that, Dia. The very act of refering to and incorporating facts from previous RPs into later ones would tend to lead to a development of a set of canon for the world eventually regardless of how anyone slowed it down or sped it along.)

No, it's using canon as an excuse to say "no you can't do that". Personally, I think you would have to stretch _extremely_ far in any set of canon in any work to find something that is completely incompatable at a base level. I feel that unpatchable plotholes and unresolvable paradoxes in this sort of fiction are all but nonexistant assuming a certain minimum level of thought is put into the work to be integrated (and the work into which you are integrating, of course, but that can be taken as a given here), and rather than using canon as a reason to discount something, one should consider it on other grounds and _then_ figure out what can be done to integrate it into canon.

Now, this isn't to say that one shouldn't bother looking into canon at all for developing backgrounds for new characters, RP backstories, or that sort of thing. Just that if you want to bring in something _entirely_ new, don't let a few apparant surface contradictions prevent you from doing so, no matter how forcefully you're told "you can't do this because this would keep it from ever existing", or something along those lines. If the work doesn't meet the aforementioned minimum level of thought, like the complete newbie RPs/characters Brian mentioned, that's another story, because it would more than likely either have internal contradictions of its own, or contradictions, not with existing canon, but with the deeper foundation upon which that canon is built.

Basically, if you are in a situation where the obvious response is "this couldn't be because event A happened instead", instead go with the response "OK, let's dig up some loopholes/plug in a retcon for event A to get this off the ground". <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
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[Spleen]

Disclaimer: The last thing I want is for anyone to construe my words as a personal attack on any party. I have nothing but the utmost respect for everyone mentioned in this thread, and also number all but Shini (who hates me back, and will surely admit to it) among my closest friends. I am not starting any fights. This being the case, I will also not accept any personal attack on myself for the ideas I am about to present. Attack the ideas all you want, but remember that that's all they are: ideas. I have no powers to put this into effect on Gaera, nor do I wish for such powers. Don't say that Spleen is being seperatist or Spleen doesn't have Gaera's best interests in mind. I was doing the dishes and thinking, and I thought maybe some ideas deserved to be heard.

That said, it comes to me, having read this and thought a bit, that what is coming about has been coming about for some time. When Gaera was created, it was chaotic and it was unmediated. Dia and Brian and others did their parts, and made it what it was today, organizing and mediating and - when necessary - policing. However, a problem that I'm sure was present through the entire early process is one that haunts us even now. That problem is Gaera's age. I am fast approaching my seventeenth birthday, and yet I distinctly remember bragging about my Bar Mitzvah presents in a chat room (it wasn't RPGWW Chat yet, but it was a chat full of RPGWWers). Through all that time and before (because I am by no means the last of the old guard, or even around long enough to be considered the old guard at all), Gaera as a creation has been forced to withstand a lot of manipulation. The hands of many are merciless, you might say. From a system that originally barred...well...in the earliest days, nobody, we now have (supposedly coexistant, as far as the setting is concerned) a system by which all creations are subject to scrutiny by members of the community.

Now, that being said, I present the example of Kingdom of Loathing. Many of you were or are players at KoL (which is a great game that can be found at www.kingdomofloathing.com Vigilantes of Funk-O-Tron all the way), and may remember the idea that was brought forth to repair the pervading effects of earlier bugs. This idea was the full reset of the game, erasing from it every extant character and forcing the community as a whole to start anew. This idea was supported by many and condemned by many others, especially those who had, themselves, benefited from the earlier problems.

The idea of the reset would have worked. The game would have been balanced from the start (an artificial start, but a start nonetheless), and the cleanup of the past would have been irrelevant. That's what I'm suggesting here - and it's not as radical as it sounds, either. Old characters wouldn't have to be abandoned, they'd just have to be subject to the same scrutiny as they would be if that poster was a newbie, and some pasts may have to be altered. I'm sure you all have an idea of some character or another that might not make the cut, and maybe they won't. The idiosyncracies in Gaeran canon (and they exist, because our Dia is only part superhero) could be eradicated, the rules of the forum standardized, and maybe we could all find peace.

I know this sounds like a crazy idea. It might be. I'm going out to dinner with my dad right now, and I'm fully prepared to come back and accept any and all constructive criticisms of this innocent idea. <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

"Even if you have lots of hit points, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye."
-Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook v3.5, page 145

"I don't know who's a bigger fool: Him for going, you for following, or me for not leaving you both."
-Demona, Gargoyles (Episode 11: Long Way to Morning)</p>

[Kai]

I'm going to say something, and I'm going to say it quickly.

Gaeran canon is the reason I wanted to RP here.

However. If people aren't allowed to run plots, there will be no more canon, since that's how it got there in the first place. The place will stagnate and die. People who let the fact that the setting is well-developed stop them from being creative are, in my opinion, making excuses for the fact that they don't care enough to play by external rules.

Canon good. Excuses bad.

Also, because the anthropologist in me won't let me leave this out...

Quote:

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The idiosyncracies in Gaeran canon (and they exist, because our Dia is only part superhero) could be eradicated, the rules of the forum standardized, and maybe we could all find peace.

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OWFUCKMYSOUL.

Developed settings don't have to be perfect, and the fact that it's diverse and complex does not make Gaera dangerous to creativity or innovation. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

[Blackwind Isao]

So what you suggest is to have one person or perhaps even a group of people review *every* character on the site? While I can see that this might actually work in theory I can't see it as a very practical idea. For one thing we'd all have to agree as to what actually is balanced before we even started. That in and of itself could lead to some rather pointed discussions. After that we'd all have to agree on the person(s) that would look over everyone which could lead to more of those pointed discussions.

Other issues that could and, more than likely would, occur: what do we do with the character that gets tossed but is involved in an RP that's currently underway without disrupting the RP? How exactly do we possibly mediate the more established characters?

Seems to me that this would take *far* too much time and effort from all sides involved. I feel that we, as a community, should make the attempt to incorporate anything that isn't too far out there and be able to ignore anything that is just too far out there.

My two cents anyways.

- Blackwind. <p>"I think weird is the latin root of role-player." - Gurgling Ooze</p>

[Kelne]

My god! All this time, Spleen has been one of those heretical members of the church of Re-Set!

Joking aside, I'm not 100% sure what you're proposing here, Spleen. I mean, while historical events (particularly some of the early stuff) can be a bit of a pain at times, by and large anyone with an active character that old has already made whatever revisions they feel are necessary for the character's past to make sense. I'm sure there are some events that have been erased entirely from characters' backgrounds, and others which are referred to only in passing, or bear little resemblance to the original version of events as played out in chat.

Which reminds me - I should finish revising my characters' histories. And resume work on a condensed timeline.

The idea of going through all the active character sheets and saying "yours is okay, yours isn't" fills me with dread. Yes, I can think of a couple of characters whose abilities I might disagree with if they were posted up today, but if there were any who'd been completely and utterly broken all this time, well, they would never have gotten accepted into RPs anyway. And I'm absolutely certain that it would stir up bad feelings.

I really don't think the answer to anything is running everything that's ever been done with a fine-toothed comb. Heck, I think that people can be a little overzealous with said combs as it stands.

Canon, by and large, works. RP events, national histories and the like are fairly well established, without locking everything down to the point that nobody has room to move when creating a new character. Things are reasonably fluid, and there are recognised authorities to go to if you have questions regarding particular nations (or indeed continents) or races.

There are still idiosyncracies, of course. But in all honesty I think the important issues have all been resolved, even if this resolution hasn't been posted up for all to see. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

[Archmage144]

You know that that's exactly the opposite of what I said, right, Spleen?

...and why does Kingdom of Loathing have any basis on what we should do with an RP community?

We don't need "more scrutiny." KoL is an online game--if it is reset, it might be inconvenient, but nothing is really lost. We don't need to "restart" Gaera to fix any perceived bugs. KoL needed to be restarted to level the playing field because people used crazy cheats and exploits to gain so much money and items that the value of currency was reduced to zero by inflation and there was no reason to anything because you could buy all of the food and drinks you needed essentially for free. It needed to be restarted because it was a competitive game (essentially) and it had become unfair.

Gaera is not a competitive game, and neither is RP--the instant you make roleplaying a competition, you automatically lose. It is not "unfair" in any way, nor does it need to be re-evaluated to eliminate potential inconsistencies. Not only would that be impossible, it's the precise opposite of what we need to do, which is learn to accept the fact that a shared world is going to have "inconsistencies," and that the best thing we can do is learn to make them work instead of worrying about them. If we decided to prune RPGWW's history of all of the things that might be deemed inconsistent, most of the avatar characters of the forum's oldbies would have no history whatsoever! <p>

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[Spleen]

Well, one of the problems that were posed was unbalance in characters (especially older, established characters) and the fact that several were unfitting to the system. What I was suggesting is merely the direct, point-A-to-point-B path to fixing that particular problem. Not the best solution, nor the solution that would take the least work, but definitely the most direct. I just thought that it might be a good idea to put what the direct way was on paper, and if a change was made in anything, maybe some absurdly small and barely recognizable fragment of the idea could be used. I didn't doubt that I'd get a response like this. That's where the disclaimer came in.

I only gave the KoL example because after I thought about it I went "Heh, that's what they were gonna do with KoL." <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

"Even if you have lots of hit points, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye."
-Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook v3.5, page 145

"I don't know who's a bigger fool: Him for going, you for following, or me for not leaving you both."
-Demona, Gargoyles (Episode 11: Long Way to Morning)</p>

[Archmage144]

Wait, what? Several characters that are unfitting? Who? What? Who said that? That was never the topic of this thread, nor was it the topic of any discussion in any other thread.

This thread started because a new character that was not imbalanced, merely perceived to be so as a snap judgment by people that didn't even properly read her character sheet, ask her creator questions, or do anything but jump to conclusions, decided not only was it their responsibility to make sure that this character never got RPed, but that the entire world know that goddamnit, that kind of thing would be unacceptable.

Except that the character wasn't broken, cheesy, or unfair to begin with. This was never about unfair characters. It was about people making unfair judgments about characters.

Edit: Oh, and about one person having a personal vendetta, holding grudges out of character against other people and using it as an excuse to dump on other people's characters, hiding behind a non-existent issue, being a hypocrite, etc. Not character balance. Not Gaeran canon "needing fixed." This thread is about people being assholes for no reason. <p>

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</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=archmage144>Archmage144</A]&nbsp; at: 10/27/05 22:15

[Spleen]

Actually, several parts of your discussion logs had to do with unbalance in established characters, or at least the ways that this new character is being held to a different standard than other characters have been in our past. If we had had the same sort of impromptu "veto" system that we have now in the past, maybe some character concepts wouldn't have gotten through. Here's the thing: If the destiny of this situation is to form some kind of official system for the okaying of characters (and it might, because that might decrease the fighting), that means that we have to say that all the extant characters are just as balanced, and I personally think that many aren't.

Quote:

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Arch mage144: Dude, Janda has a bunch of magic stuff.

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Quote:

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Arch mage144: You should ask Pervy how many special exceptions to the rules I was willing to make for him. Because it was "in character."
Arch mage144: Ushyu in combat. Giving Enlil a free sword with +3/+3 to AT/PA at first level, effectively six free skill points.
Arch mage144: Letting Millenia Break fly as a tech at all.

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Quote:

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Arch mage144: Becoming invisible quote unquote "without magic" is not the most outrageous thing an RPGWW character has been able to do. Griff had that crazy arm. Still does, right? At least a couple people can turn into dragon forms. At one point, Kamos had technomancy and could fire missiles and lasers from his gauntlets by spending TP instead of MP, and that was okay for a very long time. Pervy has a pet rabbit that turns into a crystal and smashes people's faces in, Inverse is a slime-half.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *:Nods:

A pet rabbit who has the potential to turn into a spaceship.*
Arch mage144: Yes.
Arch mage144: That isn't broken or ridiculous. At all.

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Quote:

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Arch mage144: Clark had a fucking reploid as his character.
TheWaiChibiAngel: *Yeah, I know.*
Arch mage144: Somehow he got away with that.

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EDIT, also: Hey, so people are assholes. That doesn't mean there's not a second problem here. <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

"Even if you have lots of hit points, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye."
-Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook v3.5, page 145

"I don't know who's a bigger fool: Him for going, you for following, or me for not leaving you both."
-Demona, Gargoyles (Episode 11: Long Way to Morning)</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=spleeninfinity13>SpleenInfinity13</A]&nbsp; at: 10/27/05 22:38

[Kai]

That's like taking every passage in the Bible that mentions wheat and trying to say that because it came up more than once.... the Bible is about furthering the agenda of grain farmers. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

[Besyanteo]

And if you weren't taking those examples completely and entirely out of context Spleen, they would even be valid. No seriously. Each of those is an example of AM pointing out that Pervy, Chris, and myself have no right to say jack crap about the things we brought up in that thread.

Not to be an ass twice in the space of less than a week, but did you even read those logs through? What you're doing is akin to advertisers taking a movie review claiming a movie was "Stupendously foolish, convoluted and poorly thought out!" and sayying "Stupendous... !" ... Which I should note that yes, they do this.

Anyway. While I am a COMPLETE HYPOCRIT for sayying as much, don't make my mistake: Read the whole thread before making these kinds of comments. :{ You don't want to be me, do you? <p>

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<div style="text-align:center"></div></p>Edited by: Besyanteo&nbsp; at: 10/27/05 23:00

[Archmage144]

Actually, Spleen, what I was trying to do there is say that there was some major hypocrisy going on. The characters, abilities, and whatnot mentioned are not necessarily imbalanced. The point I was making was that this new character was not imbalanced because other characters that were considered to be balanced by the same person criticizing Myrnal were just as if not more powerful.

1. I brought up Janda because Myrnal supposedly had "magic items that were more powerful than god for no reason." Janda has magic items as well, and probably with equal justification. As do many other characters that have acquired magical stuff in RPs. All of the magical stuff acquired by Myrnal she got "in RP," too. I was the GM. It didn't happen on the forum, but the storyline and events were accepted as part of Gaeran canon (it took place in Gaera) as though it had been a chat RP series or something.

2. I brought up Pervy specifically because of the idea that I was making an "unfair exception" by having Myrnal start at level 4 "for no reason." She went through 15 or 16 D&D sessions and gained a lot of D&D EXP as a result. Starting her over at level 1 would have made very little sense and forced her to sacrifice a lot of the knowledge and skills she has now. Was this an exception? Yes. Have exceptions been made for other people and characters? Absolutely! Enlil got to start with a magic, sentient sword that was way better than anyone else's level 1 gear. Millenia Break seemed very powerful to me, but Pervy insisted that Enlil needed it for plot reasons and that it was important to her character, so I let him.

3. I started listing those things not to suggest that they were overpowered but to suggest that it was hypocritical to call something far less ridiculous overpowered without justification. This is an example of you failing a reading comprehension check combined with sarcasm not being well-communicated through text. It is also a wonderful example of mastery of "using quotations out of context."

4. No one criticized Clark for playing a reploid. If they did criticize him, they didn't do it in a way that convinced him to not play the character, because the character is canon and was part of several plots, including of the War. Ultimately, this means that Clark was allowed to play a reploid. Why, then, is playing a human ninja with a couple magical knives an idea worthy of so much violent criticism?

5. You have no idea what the point of this thread is. This is okay, by itself. You obviously have not read the character closet thread. You obviously do not know what I and others have been discussing via IM. You are out of the loop, and that is not bad. But you are making completely implausible suggestions, completely misinterpreting the purpose of this discussion, and quoting things out of context to prove that the subject of this thread is not, in fact, what everyone else thinks it is.

Please stop doing that and find out what we're really discussing here by reading the character closet thread, and if you're still confused, IM someone involved and ask as opposed to jumping to wild conclusions that Gaera needs a character reset because it's not fair. <p>

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[Spleen]

(EDITNOTE: I started typing this before Brian's previous message came to light.)

I read it, and I know what he was saying.

I'm not looking at the problem the same way as everyone else, or even, you might even say, at the same problem. Brian is looking at assholes operating in a system, and I am looking at a system operating around assholes. If you change the assholes, the system is fixed. If the system is fixed, you can negate the influence of the assholes. We can either take the power of veto over new characters from people who have no acknowledged credentials or we can make it the responsibility of the community as a whole to make sure that everyone's characters - assholes included - are subject to the same power of veto. It's not like there aren't enough of us that we couldn't make a reasonable dent if we tried. Besides, most characters would get waved right through anyway. If it takes a while to okay an existing character, then it probably ought to have been discussed before it was ever introduced to begin with. Hell, I know I've had some characters that wouldn't have made it - all the earlier incarnations of Spleen/Seryntas, for instance. <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

"Even if you have lots of hit points, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye."
-Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook v3.5, page 145

"I don't know who's a bigger fool: Him for going, you for following, or me for not leaving you both."
-Demona, Gargoyles (Episode 11: Long Way to Morning)</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=spleeninfinity13>SpleenInfinity13</A]&nbsp; at: 10/27/05 23:20

[Kelne]

So, what you're saying here is that we identify the principal offenders and retoactively apply the same standards to them as they're applying to others?

Because if you've updated Seryntas from old versions of himself that wouldn't fly these days, then he and other such updated characters don't count as examples of what needs to be fixed. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

[Archmage144]

Or no one can have the power of veto unless something is patently ridiculous, which would be ideal. People can keep their noses out of each other's characters. You don't have to prove to some arbitrary person or group of people that your character is adequate unless your character sheet or concept is extremely flawed and lacking in any kind of information. "My character is an anthropomorphic whale tarot mage who owns a sugar cane farm" is going to raise eyebrows.

You are blaming Philsys for being the reason people's characters are criticized. This is not the case. In this specific instance, a character was criticized because Pervy didn't like the RPer OOCly as opposed to the merits of the character. While it is perfectly acceptable to ask the question "what is this character's backstory?" it should not be some sort of quality control-based screening process, especially when the person in question is already an established RPer and or GM.

The entire point of my post is that no one should be sitting around thinking it's their job to be the final arbiter of what characters and plots are kosher. If something is really fucked up, someone will eventually say something. If someone posts a character that makes no sense and tries to join an RP without elaborating on the concept, the GM can say, "no, and this is why," explaining his or her problem with the character in question. The problem is that certain people, Pervy in particular, have decided that it is their job to police people's characters, and decisions can be made based on things wholly unrelated to the character, like the fact that they're played by a certain person or that they were originally in a 3e D&D campaign.

What the hell are you advocating, exactly? A council of people to approve characters? A reworking of all characters that "aren't up to standards" according to this governing body?

If you answered yes to either of those questions, you are still missing the point of this thread. Alternately, you disagree with me, and think that yes, people should be constantly policing characters and plots "for the sake of canon" or whatever even when it's totally unnecessary. If I started an RP or created a character today, would you go over it with a fine-tooth comb and demand that I prove to you that I could do so, or would you assume that I'm going to do that anyway because it's been the trend in the past? <p>

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[Kai]

Clark is wise. He said a thing better than I could.

Quote:

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NYClark2: It looked like he was both blaming and proposing an RPGWW establishment.

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<p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

[Idran1701]

A general question for the thread: given the comments about the overall negative view of harsh critics in the character closet, would a crackdown on such posts be acceptable to you all? Stopping the actions by removing posts of this nature, following a dialog with the poster to give them a chance to edit their post to a less confrontational manner of course. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

[Archmage144]

No, I would prefer not to go digging through threads to delete rude posts. Especially since I am only talking specifically about one thread, though there might be others--they are effectively dead conversations at this point, and if anything, deleting a bunch of posts eliminates evidence that people were being bastards in the first place. =P

As far as new posts? I think that's been an informal rule for a long time. "Don't be a prick." <p>

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[Idran1701]

Oh, no, not old posts. That'd be quite pointless. I mean making that informal rule a formal one, and specifically outlawing prickishness in character critiquing. <p>

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"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

[Archmage144]

I think it might actually be formal.

And it should already be understood. If the only way to enforce it is having people run about the forum deleting inflammatory posts, I don't think that's going to do any good. RPGWW's only big rule is "don't be a dick for no good reason." If people are totally unable to follow that, they shouldn't post.

Being a dick because it's funny and because you have a very good reason is still acceptable. Rube does not have to leave. But not when it comes to serious discussions, like stuff about RPs.

[url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=archmage144>Archmage144</A]&nbsp; at: 10/28/05 1:30
[/i]

[Wolfbelly]

Hey guys, it's not uncommon for people to get defensive when others say that their point was completely off the mark when they thought it was spot on. This defensiveness is basically what's derailing the thread. Adding insults to confusion only exacerbates things.

Also, THANK YOU AM for the following ... "This thread is about people being assholes for no reason." I had to drudge through this ENTIRE THREAD to see what everyone was bitching about, AND YOU SUMMED IT UP IN THAT SIMPLE SENTENCE. Can't you people PLEASE for ONCE be concise and to the point? <p></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=wolfbelly>Wolfbelly</A] at: 10/28/05 1:35