Hay you guyz

[FF Fanatic 80]

Yes, because simply posting "You're all being assholes" without any explanation why, sure makes more sense. Hell, I'll give it a shot now.


Brian is a jackass.


I don't need to explain why this is true, or what lead to me believing this is so. I'll just post that one sentence and leave everyone to guess and speculate what lead me to that conclusion.

That sure makes a hell of a lot of sense, right?


....but seriously, back on topic.


Misunderstanding aside a moment, I can see why you'd wanna try your method Spleen. Basically, to cut down on the arguments and disagreements over what is right/wrong for the RP world. Put someone in place with final say, so arguing afterward 'in theory' would be a mute point, and give things a little stability.

The thing is, I don't think it would fit in the 'spirit' of how Rpgww's RP world has been developed over time. Gaera Guide and Philsys aside, we've never really had any set system in place for developing it. While the loose rules is a drawback in some ways, (hihi arguments over canon events), it's also why our RP world is so diverse right now. Basically, we'd be trading creativity for peace of mind. I'm not fond of that idea, to be honest.

There's also the fact that disagreement are still likely, even with a system of arbiters in place.

"OMG the review team's showing favoritism."

"WTF you let mutant spiders in as a race?! You guys are turning Gaera into a joke!"

So that's my take on putting a council of sorts together for reviews.


As far as reviewing older characters, we've already been doing that for as long as Gaera's existed. As the tone of the RP world here changed, a lot of us changed our characters or even rewrote their stories and history's to make sense.

Empress Rydia evolved into Dia Rai.
The FF Fanatic Paladin evolved into Daniel Hyral.
King of Doma evolved into King Charles (insert middle names here) Domanada.

All three of them have gone from silly forum avatars to very serious characters. Sometimes we've done it willingly, othertimes it's taken the whole forum pointing out "...Ok dude? No. Just change it, it makes no fucking sense =[" for things to get changed. But for the most part, as the world's changed we've all changed to go along with it. So I don't see a point to a character re-review.

You can argue I'm biased there, since my own characters would fall under that review. But I know first hand it can, and has, worked out.

[Groxley Grunk]

Oh my god... all this conversation based on a proposed "Reset" of RPGWW and no one has made a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" joke yet. I am so ashamed of all of you.

[Idran1701]

...Wow. I dropped the ball on that one. :( <p>

---

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

[Groxley Grunk]

Anyhow, it's just as well the idea is not going over that well. If DC can be used as a precident, ya'll would have to do another one in twenty or so years, as the next set of RPers wouldn't learn the lessons taught by the first one properly.

Joke quota met. I swear to god this forum would go right to hell if it wasn't for me.

[Seethe347]

I feel like commenting on the original subject now.

Something that people need to keep in mind is that, according to our current rules as far as I understand them, the GM has the final say in everything as far as individual RPs are concerned. GMs can make their RPs as screwy as they please, and they can accept or reject characters completely on a whim, with or without explanation. Of course, if a GM uses this power too poorly, it could result in such things as a lack of players, an endangerment to the GM's credibility among people who find credibility important, or an inability to get the RP off the ground. If a GM tries to set an RP in Gaera, but fails to follow Gaeran canon very closely while still somehow generating enough interest from players, then the RP could wind up belonging in the "Other RPs" forum. I don't know what would happen if a poorly made or canon-violating RP did manage to be completed, or for that matter if any horrible or canon-violating idea were put forth, and the people responsible tried to insert it into Gaeran canon, but I imagine that anyone who objected could raise the issue in the OOC forum and anyone who didn't participate in the discussion that resulted could be assumed not to care about the matter.

But anyway, my point is that it doesn't matter how many edgy comments are directed towards a character sheet. If that character sheet is submitted to a GM, then acceptance or rejection is entirely in the hands of the GM. Therefore, even if angry comments that hold no constructive content are morally defensible, posting them is still absolutely pointless and creating secret societies to cause them to be posted provides a person with absolutely no additional control over Gaera. Really, the only good way to influence other people is by giving advice. People just need to remember that.

Also: As far as Spleen's idea goes, I'm pretty sure that, as he flat out said, he only meant to suggest it as one possible way to prevent this kind of drama in the future. The response seemed a good deal more emotionally charged than it needed to be. In any case, it was more wordy than it needed to be. When pressed in such a way, he naturally defended it despite the fact that the post in which he put it forth made it sound like even he thought that it was more extreme than necessary. Conclusion: Unnecessary drama has taken place in a thread about unnecessary drama, therefore hilarious irony has occurred.

[pd Rydia]

"But anyway, my point is that it doesn't matter how many edgy comments are directed towards a character sheet."

Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?

You've a good point overall, Seethe, but the fact of the matter is, if someone's getting harrassed over their character, that does matter. Especially if the poster is new to the community and doesn't know the 'system' of how characters get accepted into RPs.


And to be honest, how often do older characters get criticized? Unless the RPer is already unpopular among the criticizers, it doesn't happen (I recall Doug and Charles' sheets getting ripped on something nasty, just offhand). I remember wondering what would happen when I decided to put up my sheets--considering how old, old, old they are, made back when philsys was fledgling and I had no idea of how it worked. I only recall Jak approaching me about anything on any of my sheets, and only offboard (and very politely). <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center">dictionary.com | encyclopædia dramatica</div></p>

[Seethe347]

Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?

That's not exactly what I meant. I agree that being harrassed is pretty upsetting. What I'm saying is that it just doesn't accomplish anything. The natural reaction to an attack is to go on the defensive, which means that the criticized character probably won't be changed. Polite conversation or at least an unemotional commentary would be a much more efficient way to accomplish the same end.

The earlier posts in this thread were mostly about the unpleasantness of harrassment. My intent is to contribute an argument against the practicality of harrassment.

But on the other hand, since I'm thinking about it now, the "sticks and stones" idea does work if the person being harrassed is the person who holds it. Actually, I think the saying itself was originally taught to children as a way of helping them defend themselves against the emotional effects of verbal abuse by their peers. If someone is being sharply criticized, I think one of the best things for that person to do would probably be to emotionally stonewall the critics for as long as they continue the behavior and contact someone who can put a stop to it. Another option would be to ignore the emotionality of the criticism and flatly tell the critics that they will have to calm down and offer some actual advice if they expect any changes to be made. However, that doesn't mean we should expect people who are suddenly subjected to emotional duress to do either of these things. (Although I have seen these tactics used angrily, but that isn't optimal.) I do think it would be a bad idea to use "sticks and stones" as an excuse to force people who are being attacked to deal with it themselves.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seethe347>Seethe347</A] at: 10/30/05 15:58

[Kai]

I agree that this kind of thing is ultimately up to the GM, which is why a lot of this confused me. The GM in question informed me that the sheet was fine. It was never a question of whether or not the character would be "allowed in RPGWW" or anything like that, because most of the people who took issue with the sheet would have had no control over that.

Quote:

---

The earlier posts in this thread were mostly about the unpleasantness of harrassment. ... Another option would be to ignore the emotionality of the criticism and flatly tell the critics that they will have to calm down and offer some actual advice if they expect any changes to be made.

---

While I agree that there is a difference between constructive criticism and general rudeness, and while I further agree that the latter far outweighed the former in this case... This wasn't a problem started because of legitimate complaints handled in bastardly ways. The legitimate complaints were handled legitimately and fixed. I'm going to quote Brian's lovely summary.

Quote:

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Oh, and about one person having a personal vendetta, holding grudges out of character against other people and using it as an excuse to dump on other people's characters, hiding behind a non-existent issue, being a hypocrite, etc.

---

This thread is intended to expose some of the unpleasant politics of RPGWW in the hopes that the root issue will no longer be a problem. It's not the rudeness itself. Anyone who hangs around RPGWW for more than a week can deal with the occasional caustic remark, and often dishes out as much as they take. In my opinion the more pressing issue is the accompanying underhanded power plays and misinformation. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

[Banjooie]

So, let's see.

A /few people/ around here are allowed to tweak Gaera canon. Now, I understand that inherent concept that oldbies have more influence than newbies. I really do. The odd thing here is that people who have experience here have, historically, been told they can't affect canon due to other people's RPs.

This is intriguing, because it implies certain oldbie RPers have the right to rule what is Gaeran canon, whereas other people don't.

Somehow, invariably, we wind up with Pervy being the guy saying no.

So, why don't we test a little theory?

Let's say Pervy was a newbie.

Let's say Enlil was his charsheet.

I guess this is what I would be asked to do.

And I did.

Now, if you've read through that, I made Enlil look like a totally twinky character, and the only reason we all accept Enlil is because we know she wouldn't be stupid.

Now, here's the question, folks.

If we, say, let an LOL GODMODER FTW into RPGWW, and he RPed a few scenes and godmoded, would Gaera be ruined forever?

Well, no. We'd just either manuever canon around it, or say 'Okay, that didn't happen.'

Now, if we screwed up Gaeran Canon with a non god-moding newbie, yeah, we'd WORK AROUND IT. Which would be simple, and it's what everyone else in the world does.

The funny thing is, what's happening now is a few people are clinging to Gaeran canon like some sort of shield against people who want to 'ruin ' it.

So I'm going to suggest something crazy.

Very crazy.

Back in the day, when Dias ran around calling themselves empresses and 'spagoogle' was a perfectly legitimate form of conversation, nobody was worried that we might in fact ruin Gaera with a plot hole.

I'm going to suggest that, in fact, we return to this.

The answer to plot holes? 'Let's not worry about it'. That's what. That's the answer, right there. Nobody is looking to read the Entire History of Gaera before making a character or RPing here. I sure as hell haven't, and I'm not going to. I don't think anyone's considering me a bad RPer for not having read the entire Gaera Guide, and in fact, I never have.

The fact we expect newbies to read an entire guide before having the 'right' to RP in our setting is absolutely hilarious to begin with, considering we invented it by making crap up as we went along.

To reiterate, the answer to all our problems is for the following.

A: Stop giving a damn about plot holes in a fictional environment. NOBODY REALLY CARES. We're here to have fun, and enjoy ourselves, and frankly I think it's a minority of people around here who hold a consistent story that nobody will read in its entirety above being able to say 'Alright, we're going to do this because it sounds awesome.'

B: Understand that there are not silent majorities who will hate you if you screw with canon. There never have been. Do you know who the people are in RPGWW? It's you guys. There is not a mass just over the horizon of mysterious phantom people who post on this forum and will get angry at you. All in all, this forum is comprised of some of the finest, smartest people I know, and Spleen.

Did I do this before? Yes. I'm realizing that it is, in fact, not doing any good. It's doing the opposite, because all I've ever watched this forum do is drop in population as people cringe in fear that their characters won't be good enough.

They will. Someone played a reploid, and someone played a cup of fucking cocoa. Miss Japanese Ninja Kawaii will either learn how to fit in in RP itself, or won't. And it's that exact step to figure out what they should be doing that you haven't been giving them. Stop going 'this character sucks'. Thalamasa is a good character, I feel, and I've been told. She grew out of a character that would never be accepted here.

Am I pointing at you all as being the problem? I'm not. I'm pointing to one specific person, who knows who he is, and is too cowardly to post in this thread because he's worried he's going to get shouted down. I will talk to him, later, on AIM, when he's available.

The rest of you, however, do have a nice handy job. You get to stop agreeing with him, and start wondering just how much damage breaking Gaera's canon in minor detail would really do. And I bet you're going to come up with the answer 'Not Very Fucking Much.'

Thank you. Have a nice day. <p><Chat> <Matto says, "What's up?"
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Angst."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Drama."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Betrayal."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Plushies."</p>

[Idran1701]

...You know he's been offline because of the con for the last 3 days, right Banj? I mean, yeah, he didn't post before that, but it's not really fair to say his recent lack of posting was due to cowardice.

Edit: Also, a further question, just to clarify: You're not saying that continuity should be abandoned completely, correct? <p>

---

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=idran1701>Idran1701</A] at: 10/31/05 0:36

[Banjooie]

Everyone /else/ is back from the con, Idran. <p><Chat> <Matto says, "What's up?"
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Angst."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Drama."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Betrayal."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Plushies."</p>

[Idran1701]

True. Which is why I specified his recent lack of posting. I can't speak for his previous avoidance, or using Priam as a proxy. I do hesitate to say it's purely due to cowardice, and until I do hear from him about this issue I won't say anything either way. <p>

---

"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

[Besyanteo]

Yes Banj, because the point of this thread is totally to agravate things further. Hey, I have an idea! Let's have a witch hunt, and burn Pervy at the stake! Because he's TOTALLY the only one who EVER flipped out over canon, or bitched out a character sheet!

Banj and Chris and Zero and I were NEVER part of THAT. Oh NO. Banj certainly didn't come with his very own catch phrase for doing it, "The Banj Canon". Which he DEFINITELY didn't just reuse on Pervy.

There are alot of people who can be angry and yell and cry out in this thread. But you're definitely not one of them Banj.

Also: Yeah, I define cowardice as "Oh hell. Half the people I even know are attacking me. I don't even know how to react. I need a time out here." God forbid you give the man some peace to sort out all the things we're layying at his feet. Some people need to think before reacting. I've known for a while that I'm not typically a person who does that, and we've seen what that results in. Something very much like the crap you just posted.

In Summation: Banj does not, in fact know everything as he seems to think he does. Furthermore, Banj actually isn't sayying anything not already said, just in a much crueler and uncivilized fashion. Way to jump on the band wagon. Pervy has definitely made some mistakes. What say before crucifying him, we let him mull over it and see if he comes back with an appology? I know it'd be a hell of alot harder for him to do if he comes back to an angry mob than to hurt friends. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center"></div></p>

[Seethe347]

When I think of Pervy, I don't think of cowardice. I've been a little worried that maybe he hasn't posted out of indignance, but I'm even going to give him the benefit of the doubt on that. When it comes to RPGWWers, I would prefer to assume the best if I can because, for the people here, the best is probably true 9 times out of 10.

As for how we treat plotholes, I'm going to take the position again that it should be each individual's decision. If we try to make everyone do the same thing, it won't be much fun for anyone. Some of us like a solidly ordered canon while others like to let things hang loose and flow freely. Either way is fine, problems only arise when people try to force their own interpretation onto everyone else.

[PriamNevhausten]

Plotholes are RPs waiting to happen.

Also, Pervy and I just discussed this at as much length as either of us cares to go into. His position, as far as I can tell, is that he kind of doesn't care enough about this issue to even validate it with a response. If someone declares him unfit to make the decisions that he does, so be it. If someone ignores his decisions, so be it. Certain things have been going around that have had him more or less disenchanted with Gaera as a whole, and some of you may have noticed that his involvement in RPs is fairly minimal currently, consisting of a board RP and Spaceman's game--he is writing himself out, as it were.

As for Enlil's sheet, he has not corrected the godmodey shit because he simply never updated her stuff since Ages Ago. It will get changed, maybe, if he bothers to stick around for it. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Banjooie]

Quote:

---

Banj and Chris and Zero and I were NEVER part of THAT. Oh NO. Banj certainly didn't come with his very own catch phrase for doing it, "The Banj Canon"

---

Boy, I sure didn't just say 'Hey, doing that to newbies was a bad idea, in retrospect!'

Sorry, Pervy's actually at fault for this one, and I'm going to stick to that.

I frankly wasn't aware of the con thing, and I'll retract the coward comment...for a few days. <p><Chat> <Matto says, "What's up?"
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Angst."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Drama."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Betrayal."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Plushies."</p>

[PriamNevhausten]

I'll say it again. Pervy is not going to post here. This thread is not worth his time to acknowledge. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[FlamingDeth]

Quote:

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Plotholes are RPs waiting to happen.

---

I think this is the most productive thing to come out of the thread. <p>
<hr width="50%"><center><span style="font-family:comic sans ms; font-size:x-large;">AVAST!</span></center></p>

[Banjooie]

I'm sorry, accusations that he is, in fact, at fault here aren't good enough for him?

Isn't that interesting. <p><Chat> <Matto says, "What's up?"
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Angst."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Drama."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Betrayal."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Plushies."</p>

[LadyDragonClawsEDW]

Not worth his time? The arrogance is astounding. I could go into all sorts of comments about him not being able to take what he's been dishing out privately and publically over the past few years, but that would be a cheap shot. I would like to point out that these days, there is very little that Pervy considers worth his time. He wouldn't even sit down to take the ten minutes required to figure out how to use commands on a MUSH.

Why, yes, each and every one of us has their flaws as an RPer and GM. I have been in several good RPs, I have been in severeal bad RPs, I have GMed several good runs, and had some not-so-good runs as well. I've left plot holes, discontinuities, and the like in not only the things I run, but in stuff like character history with the intention of coming back to them-in several cases I certainly have. So something seems godmodey, mary suish, or just flat out improbable. This is not Harry Potter, this is a RP setting of our creation, and by our, we mean everyone. Everyone has put in their own little piece.

Having played on Videoland for over a year now, I can sit back and compare these two rather extreme settings. Videoland demands that you adhere strictly to canon in regards to powers, histories, future character events, with a bit of personality tweaking and "Videoland canon" allowed. You do not have vampire Links with laser eyes, a full belt of pokemon, and jedi powers running around. It's pretty strict and it can be a pain sometimes, but guess what? It's still fun. The setting still works, even with the fuzzy continuity. Even with "WTF, you died ingame, how can you be here!" going on.

On the other end of the spectrum, there is here, Gaera, which I haven't been hanging around lately due to the fact that most of the people I enjoy RPing with have all but vanished. When was the last time we saw Tai or Amanda in chat, much less RPing? What about Adam? Dia? I'm not saying I don't give the newbies a chance over here. I'm more concerned with /why/ they aren't sticking around anymore. Again, I believe most of this has to do with the issues raised in this post. The thing is, here, unilke Videoland, I can run around playing my ryuuzoku eternal dragon warrior royalty, or randomly generate a village of white mages at the border of Doma and Riva and call it Varrock. No one will get on my case on it! That is, nobody will usually. To argue about Gaera canon is silly. Yes, we can document the hell out of every thing, but when we start cramming things into day-by-day history and declaring this and that can't happen on this day because my thing here happens? Yeah. Shot to hell. It just leads to arguing and bickering.

Whether it be on Videoland or RPGWW, I've noticed that if people want to hope at getting along, they have to compromise and put a little trust in their fellow RPer to not destroy "canon" or godmode or the like. And if a little destruction or godmoding happens? Oh well! Live from it, accept it, and move on. A lot of people will agree that there was a lot of godmoding going on to get the war started, but step back and look at everything. Other than the grief the two main GMS running the plot got, everything in Gaera? It's fine. Now we actually have some interesting recent history to play off of. We get to do things like rebuilding and relief efforts instead of sitting around in bars awaiting for that mysterious traveller to offer up generic quest x to go and slay generic beast y for reason z. Let plotholes happen, that gives us an opportunity to come back and play around a bit more later.

What we don't need (as someone who sees themselves as a mostly neutral party with the exception of people's stances on the war in the realm of board politics), is people shooting down each other's ideas on the grounds of things like "oh that can't happen" or "I don't like that, it'll effect this thing of mine" or "hey, you can't ressurect that demon lord/destroy a city block, that's godmoding" or even worse yet, starting up a little coven of secret RPs that bar specific people from attending. We don't need people urging each other over IMs to rip on someone else's character sheet. We don't need people endlessly harassing each other to get them to bend to so-and-so's opinions and standards. We need people to get out there and actually DO SHIT instead of making up excuses to not RP or not let so-and-so RP. That's what this is all about!

Not character sheets, not godmoding, not plus whatever weaponry, not stealth skills, not bickering over the timeline, not making up excuses to not have things happen. It's about roleplaying, and in light of all this shit, I see VERY LITTLE ROLEPLAYING GOING ON. YOU FAIL!



On an unrelated note, Bes, stop being an asshole to everyone (Pervy excepted since you seem quite interested in defending his absent position on this entire matter rather vehemently). Seriously. Just stop. I don't remember when you started being an asshole, but I do remember a time when you weren't.

[The Great Nevareh]

Mediator Action Begin Now!

Wow. My year-and-a-half of cowering in the distance waiting for someone to say that it's okay not to know absolutely everything before even trying to start has suddenly been validated.

If I remember correctly, I was fairly eager to start when I came here and now I squeal with fear whenever someone offers to do something in Gaera Main, probably because my criticism tolerance is fairly low.

This thread is NOT about fighting. It should have nothing to do with yelling or being angry. If it did, then it doesn't belong here and there is no reason why it should be out here for everyone else to see unless there's some kind of urge going on that anger is best when everyone gets to sample its exquisite detail. If you want to be angry, to hit something. Don't shout it out for everyone to see.

Banj: Assholery won't work. No matter how much sarcasm and facetiousness you throw at whatever it is you're trying to accomplish, increased amounts of it will still fail to produce a response you want, and any other response is likely to incense you further. The value added by your post to the thread is low and considering your general history with the Neo Vanist Review Crew should have given you fair warning that people would rib you a bit for saying what you did. That said, "You asked for it" is really a horrible reason to attack someone.

Pervy: Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. Say SOMETHING to the masses to either validate their discontent or defuse it, but don't continue to ignore the entire situation since all the act of avoiding the thread really does is build on the image that this thread has constructed of you. Just pop in and defend yourself or say for yourself what Priam said you said. It will go much further than your current silence.

Brian: Boy, I really wish you had done something like this for me a year ago. I guess it's one of the disadvantages to not being there. Also, for fairness's sake, it isn't exactly nice to run campaigns that no one here can see or enjoy and still assign rewards in this community for something executed outside of this community. It's a little bit of jealousy on my part that someone else gets your attention as well as the fact that few other people here had the option to join your game, but at least part of the point is valid. I have to say that much of the fuss looks kind of silly: What's wrong with creating characters above level 1, anyway? And if you're above level 1, isn't it expected that you'll have acquired a few items that aren't entirely mundane? Sure, it's not terribly realistic, but neither is the concept of the "Player Character."

So, if you want to be angry, do it somewhere else, please. There is NO reason to make other people look upon your rage unless it's supposed to help those other people understand something.

And now I shall retreat and let everyone yell at me since I'm probably doing this terribly wrong. <p>[---------------------------]
"There is great disorder under Heaven, and the situation is excellent."
-Mao Tse-Tung

"I eat the talking bees because I am George Washington Christ"
-From "Bob the Ball"</p>

[Groxley Grunk]

Yeah, I'm sorry. Much as I'm not one for fanning flames or anything... but Pervy's whole "This isn't worth my time" stance is raising him from a nice guy who doesn't always consider the results of his actions to a full on douchebag. Most likley not what he's intending... but then again he never really intends to look bad now, does he?

And I really can't see why people can't see past Banj's standard issuse assholeism to see a very good point: Things where fun once, now they aren't. Let's bring things back to being fun again.

I mean, Jesus H. Monkeyloving Christ, that's what this entire board is based upon, isn't it? Good people having fun together. Not some higher ideal of roleplaying, not some magic standard of continuity or some shit... but good clean old fashioned tomfoolery and fun. And what the hell was wrong with that?

Anyhow, I'm really starting to think that people should take a few steps away from Geara or whatever for a few days. Let all this agnst and whatnot die down and really revaluate where this shit fest is coming from. I mean, people wouldn't be getting this riled up if it wasn't important to them, correct? Perhaps ya'll should examine 'why' it's to important to you... and if your values meet the values of the rest of the board. If they don't... well, maybe we should examine why you're RPing here then, eh?

[Besyanteo]

Kate: I am not, in fact, being an asshole to everyone. I told Spleen to stop because it appeared to me that he had no idea what he was talking about, and I should note that I was actually less harsh about it than Brian was.

And yes, I defended Pervy's not posting here, because god knows if this thread had the same sentiments directed straight at me that are being directed at Pervy, I sure as hell wouldn't want to put my foot into it deeper by replying. As it stands, Pervy's reasons aparently differ from my own. I don't agree with his stance, but for fuck sakes. He's human too, not some evil bastard who wants your soul.

Also: I have to agree with Rube, though I don't know if I'm getting the spirit of his post right. There is way too much hostility at and around this thread. At Pervy, at Brian, at everyone. And believe me when I say there are an asston of people who are pissing off about this privately, and are afraid to say anything. And for precisely this reason! I've defended Pervy one time in one aspect, and already I'm having shots taken at me.

He claims that he's probably leaving. That seems to solve about half of everyone's problems right there. That said, why does this thread need to continue? And why do people need to tell eachother they're stupid assholes? Go have fun RPing. Aparently, the boogie man isn't breathing down your neck anymore, if ever he was. <p>

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<div style="text-align:center"></div></p>

[Archmage144]

You know, I never asked him to leave the community--that was never the goal. Somehow, I doubt it was the goal for anyone.

My intention was to bring to light what was happening, because no one wanted to acknowledge it. Nevareh, I apologize for not "jumping to your defense" the way I jumped to Kai's, but I cannot remember any instance in particular in which I would have needed to do so (which I must also apologize for), nor would I have been quite so inflamed about it--I was pissed off at the things said about Ada\m, Kate, and Amanda because they're all dear friends, and I was pissed off at the things done to Ash because she's my girlfriend/best friend, but I really don't know you all that well. That doesn't mean I wouldn't ever defend you if I thought you were being unjustly treated, but I think you bring on/invent a lot of the supposed disgust people have for you by being whiny. No offense intended.

I don't want Pervy to leave--I want him to speak for himself. To suggest that "this isn't worth his time" is not only arrogant, but it suggests that the opinions and concerns of people that have considered him a friend in the past are also "not worth his time." He can't afford to say anything to the people he's hurt? I don't hate him, and I would never suggest that anyone stop being his friend, but is he being a good friend in return by deciding that he's above everyone else like this? <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center"></div>

</p>

[Banjooie]

Quote:

---

And believe me when I say there are an asston of people who are pissing off about this privately, and are afraid to say anything

---

There is a certain complete and utter irony to claiming there is a silent majority of people who are against this argument, especially if you look at the top page. <p><Chat> <Matto says, "What's up?"
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Angst."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Drama."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Betrayal."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Plushies."</p>

[LadyDragonClawsEDW]

I didn't just mean in this thread. We can talk about this on AIM later as such a discussion does not belong here.

And yes, people were breathing down my neck. And Doug's. And Brian's. And Adam's. And even James. People are hostile here! Even I'm hostile here! And to all you people pissing off privately, get your balls out and post. The whole "Shadow Council" rose from people pissing off about each other to other people privately and generating masturbatory groupthink.

I've been RPing long enough on the internet to know all those little tricks. Pervy being passive agressive about everything or acting all high and mighty and simply considering himself as the better RPer and that we are not worthy of his time is not going to help his case. If he's going to leave? Fine. Go ahead. As it stands, he either needs to stand up, justify himself, and try to reach some sort of compromise with all the people he's harassed, sniped, stonewalled, and otherwise been a 'tard to because they don't meet his lofty RPing standards. This goes for all those "many people" out there that are backing up Pervy and not saying anything about it.

People are angry, Bes. These issues have been festering for a very long time, I believe, so expect to see people being angry. Expect to see people like me who have remained silent for a very long time ranting about this stuff.

I will conceed to your remark about Spleen, however, as I highly disagree with his solution of dealing with Gaera canon. <p>--------------------

"If I have to grab a man's ass, you can smile." -Tolaris</p>

[Squintz Altec]

Having had this brought to my attention, I feel it's only proper that I come up and speak. I see an awful lot of "Why do you think Adam left?" in this thread. So I'm here to clarify it all.

Frankly, WoW is a very addicting game. When I'm done with my schoolwork, when I'm not out doing random crap on the weekends, and when I'm not hanging out with friends, I play WoW. That, more than anything, led to me "leaving." Though I do still check in from time to time, and hop in chat, and talk to you guys, I'm usually just not around.

With that said, however, it wasn't the only reason, though it's the biggest obstacle to me returning on a regular basis.

However, this is the very thing that got me so upset, why I decided I needed a break, and why I stopped hanging out so much. The idea that there was always a silent majority of people that disapproved of what I did, and wouldn't come out and say who they were. They just didn't approve. I called them the Shadow Council. Pervy was the head of it. Whenever canon was affected, the Shadow Council was there. Whenever something that wasn't SUPPOSED to happen because it might screw up something that HAD NOT EVEN STARTED YET cropped up, the Shadow Council saw it.

It got to be too much. THEN I learned about the "secret" RPs. Oh, sure. They weren't that secret. There were postings to various people saying "the session has been delayed, we're doing this and this and so and so," but nothing was ever said about the contents, or why there sessions were happening. Sure, I guess I could have forced the issue, but why bother? Wasn't affecting me. Then I do my thing and I find out that these secret RPs were being affected, though I knew nothing about them. It was frustrating.

I'm going to out and say this. Pervy, you were fine at first, then you got annoying, and now I can't stand you. Every time I did something, I always waited for your casual IM to tell me "this isn't possible." Then when I explained my reasoning, I was promptly told that my reasoning had no place. This is unacceptable. It needs to stop.

Disband the goddamn Shadow Council already. Stop saying that "lots of people" support your cause. Let them speak for themselves.

Oh, and that whole "this isn't worth my time" thing doesn't help you out here. It just makes you sound even more arrogant than you are.


Edit: Oh, by the way. Hello again. My name is Adam.

Edited by: Squintz Altec&nbsp; at: 10/31/05 15:51

[FlamingDeth]

<s>DERAIL DERAIL DERAIL!

I'm a big fan of talking about WoW, at every possible moment! Which server(s) are you on, Mr. teh Rabbi?

...actually, to avoid derailing the thread, use the "ezMail" doodad. D:</s>

Edit: Obligatory edit of staying on topic/moderator power abuse. :o

Edit^2: *bitchsmacks HTML into working* <p>
<hr width="50%"><center><span style="font-family:comic sans ms; font-size:x-large;">AVAST!</span></center></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=ladydragonclawsedw>LadyDragonClawsEDW</A] at: 10/31/05 16:06

[Shinigori V2]

The next person to say "Shadow Council" will get beat.

Just because someone says they have a lot of followers means nothing unless names can be named. Some people were undecided about the war- Me, for example. I didn't make heads or tails of it until after it was done (I'm not counting my official "WRF IS THIS SHIT" reaction, for which I have already appologized for, and will not do so again. Once was enough on that one.). I think, using that as an example, that he was including all the people who had characters abstain from the war in some way- He had a whole group transported to a wholly different continent to escape it, because honestly, war would not have done good things to those people. Janda, for one, was cursed at the time, and about four inches tall. Would she, a miniture celestial, survived a demonic invastion? Not a chance. So I had her be taken, and believe that I, through her, was included into this 'silent majority'. Kelne is another example of someone with a character that was taken and likley included. Neb, as well.

Anyway, what I'm saying is really, it's everyone's deal now- He came up with the whole "I have these people whod on't want to be named supporting me", and your deal for being paranoid enough in the first place to think that so many people were against you. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center">What's wrong with this ring?!</div></p>

[PriamNevhausten]

Bes is spot on. This thread is a goddamned raging fire, and if Pervy is dumb enough to walk right into this shitpile and suffer the damage that everyone has ready for him, then shame on him.

Also. For what it is worth, I talked with him specifically about the Nekogami Incident, as it shall now be called. He issued the closest thing to an apology that I have ever heard out of him for being so brash and abrasive, with an addendum: "but holy crap, that was years ago."

The War did a lot of fucking stupid things to all of us. Gaeran Canon became a thing to protect, Shadows arose to various members' respective becks and calls, a separate war was fought between real people's ideas. For fuck's sake, Jooie and I personally tried to break the whole forum using it as a tool. You remember that shit?

Yeah. That's what I thought.

We've all done stupid shit. You know what should be done? We should ignore the stupidry and go on with our goddamned lives. People can and will do dumb things, but that doesn't keep us from having fun anyway.

*looks up at the rest of the thread*

Or does it? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=priamnevhausten>PriamNevhausten</A]&nbsp; at: 10/31/05 16:39

[Squintz Altec]

Almost every time I talked to Pervy afterwards, there was always "Lots of people agree with me" thrown around. It made me paranoid. Hell, from what I knew, half the people I knew were against me. Pretty good way to make someone not want to pitch in ideas.


PS: 60 NE hunter on Tich, 28 tauren druid on Moonrunner

(Shh. Don't wanna derail)

[LadyDragonClawsEDW]

Quote:

---

For fuck's sake, Jooie and I personally tried to break the whole forum using it as a tool. You remember that shit?

---

No I don't, but I'm pretty sure that's your point. Why did you do that anyways? Just to start shit? Engineer a flamewar or something?

Though at this point Pervy's refusal to even acknowledge the contents of this thread and the problems put forth says far more than anything he can put into words. Well, wait, I can put it into words. His words specifically that I've heard him use from time to time:

*DOESN'T EXIST*

You were a great dude to RP with at first, Pervy, but from Enlil on, everthing just seemed to go downhill. It was a pleasure interacting with you before you became so critical. That being said, I bow out. I'll still be watching the thread, though mostly for moderator purposes and oppressing FDeth if he gets off topic again. :( <p>--------------------

"If I have to grab a man's ass, you can smile." -Tolaris</p>

[Choark]

To be a git and just because:

Quote:

---

The next person to say "Shadow Council" will get beat.
Just because someone says they have a lot of followers means nothing unless names can be named.

---

I actually thought they were called the 'Shadow Council' because no names were named? It be ___ and ____ and ___ otherwise, right?

But more seriously:
We are friends? We are friends? We are friends till the bitter end?

[PriamNevhausten]

No fecking kidding. Put down your pitchforks, and realize that you held the real power the whole time. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

[Dragon Sage007]

Alright. I really didn't want to post here, but I've been watching this from the start.

Ye gads, grow up people. That can sum up my entire point, right there. Grow -up- for chrissakes.

Several people in this thread have made good points. Some have made less than good points. Some have made points that -would- be good if they were differently expressed.

But...I agree, on the whole, with the 'lighten up and just have fun RPing, dammit' view. Is it worth destroying friendships we've made -through RPing- just because we don't want the dark elves to be inconvenienced with a plothole? I mean, damn. You don't get much more petty.

And is it really worth jeapordizing friendships to point out that you're an asshole for not letting that RP with the same plothole go through?

For the love of fucking Christ, grow up. On some levels, I think this thread needs to be locked, put into a chest, and tossed into the sea. And have the sea be tossed into Dungeon Block H. And...you get the point.

On other levels, this thread is doing -some- good. It's getting things out into the open. But can we be less hostile about it? From the start, it was an attack on someone. Yes AM, that message -could- be conceived as someone wanting to start a fight, especially to someone that by and large doesn't want to visit that often because he's feeling attacked. Paranoia, and all that. We all need to take some serious time-outs, and come back in a more mature, calm frame of mind.

I'm a little ticked, and pretty disappointed. I thought we proud folks at RPGWW were above that. I guess I thought wrong.

I'll post again if everyone involved decides to speak above the level of ten-year-olds. Or at least above Banj Cannons.

And I apologize in advance if people take offense at this post, but I feel it needed to be said. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center"></div>
<div style="text-align:center">I have no idea how this happened. Really</div></p>

[Archmage144]

A chat with Priam.

Arch mage144: OMG, Priam!
OMG Priam has left the room.
OMG Priam has entered the room.
OMG Priam: OMG, shit connection! >_<
Arch mage144: OMG!
Arch mage144: Dude, Priam.
OMG Priam: Dude.
Arch mage144: What is up?
OMG Priam: Not a lot. Chillin until I gotta head in to work. Again.
Arch mage144: So I see. An understandable thing.
Arch mage144: Also, just because I feel obligated to say something--you've got a very interesting opinion about whether or not Pervy should speak up in that thread.
OMG Priam: I do! I mean, what would it accomplish?
Arch mage144: Well, just hypothetically speaking.
Arch mage144: My perspective on the situation is that this should not be an argument--I don't want to drag him into the chat so we can beat h im up.
Arch mage144: Or the thread, whatever.
Arch mage144: I want him to acknowledge what he's done wrong, fess up to it, and potentially apologize. I have to think that other people would probably appreciate it as well.
Arch mage144: But I know that asking him for an apology is meaningless--even if I get one, it'd be a false apology, like a prisoner who will say anything after hours of torture.
OMG Priam: Let's itemize this instead of keeping it this amorphous 'what he's done wrong' blob
Arch mage144: Sure, I can do that. I can actually lay out a list of things.
Arch mage144: But the thing is that I don't want a go-between.
Arch mage144: Nor do I want to hand him a list of "crimes," sign-this-confession-and-you-get-to-go style.
OMG Priam: Pervy isn't going to join the discussion himself. It's too dramatic and silly when he's already on his way out, so getting involved is nearly pointless.
OMG Priam: He doesn't read the thread, he doesn't pay attention to the discussion.
Arch mage144: Priam, don't you think it's awfully rude and arrogant of him to say "this isn't worth my time, you people are stupid" and not even apologize?
Arch mage144: I could list everything I think is apology worthy.
Arch mage144: But I should hope he can recognize those things for himself and own up to them.
OMG Priam: To be fair, 'not worth my time' was my words as an interpretation of his stance.
Arch mage144: You realize that that doesn't help his case any, then.
OMG Priam: Regardless.
Arch mage144: I get what you're saying: It's "stupid" to submit himself to judgment.
OMG Priam: The one thing I did bring up specifically with him, the Nekogami Incident, he did apologize for. Or as close to it as I've ever heard him get.
Arch mage144: Right?
OMG Priam: I think it is, because people are going to be angry pretty much no matter what. What is done is done.
OMG Priam: Can't really change that.
Arch mage144: I actually think that people will be a hell of a lot more likely to not be angry if he were willing to genuinely apologize.
Arch mage144: He's being very disrespectful to everyone he's already hurt; he is, in effect, saying that their opinions are meaningless.
OMG Priam: To him, yes. But we all know this about Pervy.
OMG Priam: He is not a considerate person, typically speaking.
Arch mage144: No, he isn't.
Arch mage144: And that's the problem.
OMG Priam: Or, I should say, he does not have the social graces of whatever whatever
OMG Priam: Diplomacy is not his forte.
Arch mage144: Right, right, I know how you get about this shit.
OMG Priam: There, that's about what I was looking for.
Arch mage144: Blah blah, constructed social graces obligations nonsencial social order insert justification for using friends to fuck people over as non-adherence etc
OMG Priam: Right, whatever. Anyway.
Arch mage144: *nonsensical
OMG Priam: So his lack of tact is the real problem?
Arch mage144: Don't you think there was anything wrong with what he's done? Or do I have to give you a concrete list before you'll agree?
Arch mage144: No, his blatant lack of respect for other people that at one time were his friends until he decided to be an utter dick to most of them.
OMG Priam: I don't dare say 'wrong' or 'right.' There are things which could have been done better--this he acknowledges. There are things that people would have been better off ignoring.
OMG Priam: People act like because he is the only one going over plots and stuff that he is somehow an authority on these, instead of being a peer.
OMG Priam: He is knowledgeable. This does not mean correct.
Arch mage144: Are you talking to him right now, or is this from memory?
OMG Priam: The first of those three was memory. The other two are my own take.
OMG Priam: If I've gathered incorrectly, do remedy this.
Arch mage144: Here's my take on the situation: It's not just that he's the only one going over plots.
Arch mage144: It's that he's willing to bully and heckle and pressure people endlessly until he gets his way.
Arch mage144: Not once have I ever IMed someone and said "your plot is full of holes, fix them, this, this, and this are wrong."
Arch mage144: I think that doing so is inconsiderate.
OMG Priam: It is.
Arch mage144: He has also notoriously targeted people with low self-confidence; this is not wholly his fault, as it could be said that lots of RPGWWers suffer from this problem.
Arch mage144: But if someone is nervous about their GM abilities, getting the Spanish inquisition does not do them any good.
Arch mage144: If anything, it convinces them rapidly that they should not be GMing at all.
OMG Priam: So Pervy's approach tactics could be better. Not a news flash.
Arch mage144: We went from "no one GMs but Archmage because no one knows how" to "let's all try to GM!"
Arch mage144: And then back to "GMing is for people who are good at it, I'm obviously not!"
Arch mage144: "A lot of people think my GMing is flawed and creates plot holes!"
Arch mage144: People didn't treat him like an authority.
Arch mage144: He always claimed that he had a lot of supporters, and people believed him because they already had low confidence. It wasn't just that he bullied people.
Arch mage144: He lied.
OMG Priam has left the room.
OMG Priam has entered the room.
OMG Priam: He lied. Yes, okay.
OMG Priam has left the room.
OMG Priam has entered the room.
OMG Priam: He lied. Yes, okay.
OMG Priam: Jesus. *kicks router*
Arch mage144: Yes.
Arch mage144: Why are you unable to fault him for that? Is he the only person who has ever done something wrong/stupid at RPGWW? No.
Arch mage144: Should he be the scapegoat for 100% of its problems? No.
Arch mage144: But why shouldn't he own up to having been a dick and at least acknowledge that he was one? Because is would be "stupid" to admit fault?
Will Rennar has entered the room.
Arch mage144: You're right, there's nothing he can say that will make him right.
Will Rennar: H'lo again.
OMG Priam: Oh, Krischevskoy. We were just talking about you.
Arch mage144: And that's why he will be thought of as a better man for standing his ground and admitting it instead of running away because he "can't win."
OMG Priam: Winning is not the issue, to him. The battle has lost his interest entirely.
Arch mage144: That's the other part of the point.
Will Rennar: No offense, Priam, but that was about as funny as the shenanigans of the flight attendant on my trip home last night.
Arch mage144: In that sentiment he has dismissed everyone's complaints as meaningless.
Arch mage144: The fact that other people would like an apology? Ha! A waste of time. He doesn't need to apologize, the battle is lost.
Will Rennar: Okay, quick question: What'd I just walk in on? o.O
OMG Priam: Would it really fix things if he popped in to say "I lied about the Shadow Council thing, I'm sorry about making people feel bad about what were some good ideas. Bye."
Arch mage144: He doesn't care anymore what people think, so why should he admit fault? It's not important! He is somehow taking the high ground by "staying out of it" when that's the most dishonorable thing he can do.
Arch mage144: I think a lot of people would feel very validated by it. Except that it will never be genuine.
Arch mage144: So I suppose that what I want is impossible--a genuine apology, which I will never get, because he does not feel he is wrong.
OMG Priam: Talking about Pervy, Xaq.
Will Rennar: Ah. Gotcha.
OMG Priam: Also, he is not 'taking the high ground.' He sees this whole mess as a livejournal-esque angst session, quivering with rage at something they refuse to fix on their own and mostly enjoying bitching about it.
Arch mage144: What?
OMG Priam: This. The thread. The complaining.
Arch mage144: "Refuse to fix?"
OMG Priam: The solution is, and always has been, ridiculously easy
Arch mage144: Ignore him?
OMG Priam: AIM even has a button specifically for it. *nods*
Arch mage144: Didn't I just finish explaining to you why that couldn't happen?
OMG Priam: ......no?
OMG Priam: You can't ignore him because he cites phantom sources, is that your argument?
Arch mage144: That's like (gross hyperbole alert) a dictator invading a peaceful country and destroying it, then saying "well, you could've avoided that by saying 'please, do not invade my country.'"
OMG Priam: You are incapable of questioning his opinion because his targets have low self-esteem?
Arch mage144: My argument is that he specifically manipulated people. He attacked them with lies. He used falsehoods to spread misinformation and deceit. He misrepresented his friends (Shini and Zero come to mind) as his blind supporters.
Arch mage144: He has done his best to make sure that no one can gamemaster but him without enduring a torrent of criticism--most of which will come from him, but it will be "supported."
Arch mage144: So it's the fault of the people who decided that there was an entire army of people who thought their plots were stupid because they were lied to?
Arch mage144: It's the victim's fault?
Arch mage144: Because they didn't "just ignore him?"
OMG Priam: I'm not saying that Pervy is absolved for lying and/or being mistaken and/or presumptuous about his companions' opinions.
Arch mage144: You are saying, however, or at the least suggesting, that the people who were manipulated were partially at fault, because they could have "opted out" of the whole thing
OMG Priam: But I am also not saying that it's okay to be like a delicate leaf blowing in the wind and expect to be left alone.
OMG Priam: I am not saying they are at fault. I am endorsing a solution.
Arch mage144: I agree with you--people should be confident and whatnot. It is a good idea.
OMG Priam: My thinking is entirely solution-based.
Arch mage144: I think that you are wrong for thinking that way.
Arch mage144: Because it ignores several important aspects of this case.
Arch mage144: You are endorsing a solution which is 100% effective in hindsight, but not practical.
Arch mage144: It reminds me of an ethics case we discussed in class once:
Arch mage144: A woman had a fight with her husband. He was an alcoholic and somewhat abusive, and they divorced.
Arch mage144: The night after, he came to her house, somewhat inebriated and banged on the door, saying he wanted to come in and talk. After a bit of initial reluctance, she let him in.
Arch mage144: He then attacked and raped her.
Arch mage144: One analysis of the case, one which attempted to provide a "third way out," a "solution that would have avoided the problem entirely," was "she shouldn't have let him in."
Will Rennar: Little late for that...
Arch mage144: Like the rape victim, people of RPGWW were abused (though nowhere near as badly, of course). How can they be faulted for it? Because they "shouldn't have put up with it?"
OMG Priam: Fault seems to be a particular focus today.
OMG Priam: What purpose does establishing fault have?
OMG Priam: Let's say, for the sake of argument, that, okay, Pervy is 100% at fault. Now what?
Arch mage144: People will feel better.
Arch mage144: You seem to have totally forgotten about that dimension of human consciousness.
OMG Priam: ....if Pervy says it is 100% his fault. That is the panacea.
Arch mage144: No, because he will not be sincere.
OMG Priam: IF it is sincere.
Arch mage144: I don't think he's 100% "at fault" for all of RPGWW's problems, just some of them.
Arch mage144: But for the sake of argument: Yes, if Pervy acknowledges what he has done to hurt people and apologizes, many people will take comfort in it.
Arch mage144: They will feel validated and be able to move on.
OMG Priam: ô_ó
Will Rennar: Provided, of course, they believe it, which might not be easy for some.
Arch mage144: This apparently baffles you.
OMG Priam: Quite.
Arch mage144: Many people do not want solutions. They want to feel better.
Arch mage144: There is a difference; but there is also the fact that if he apologizes, people can be assured that he will not do it again.
OMG Priam: They could probably benefit from Lloyd's place of employment.
Arch mage144: Because it will allow people to believe that they have gotten through to him.
Arch mage144: So it serves two purposes: It reinforces the fact that people were right ("hey, see, I knew he was being a dick! At least he recognizes it, too") and it reassures people that he will not do it again.
Arch mage144: Because with no apology from him, there is no closure, just Pervy's vanishing act.
OMG Priam: I hate to say it, but that's a distinct possibility.
OMG Priam: Well, I don't hate to say it. I hate to say it to you.
Arch mage144: Yeah, uh, I think that's petty and arrogant of him.
Arch mage144: He is going to leave a lot of people infinitely more pissed off than if he would just apologize.
Arch mage144: And the fact that he can't even do that is disgusting.
Arch mage144: I don't think this is so confusing.
OMG Priam: What happens if he doesn't believe that what he did was copletely wrong?
Arch mage144: I already know that that will happen. *shrug*
Arch mage144: But at this point I think people would be satisfied to know that he won't be allowed to do this shit anymore.
Arch mage144: Which never gets offically said if he just vanishes wordlessly.
OMG Priam: Remove his modship. Tell people to question him at every turn. Invalidate his authority. People can be assured that he won't do 'this shit' anymore by *making sure* it won't happen again.
Arch mage144: He isn't using his modship. He never did. He's mod of the fanfiction forum.
Arch mage144: I have told people that he has no authority. I am not going to be believed as well as he is.
OMG Priam: Doesn't matter. Mods are mods, and we have a certain smell of power, however slight.
Arch mage144: And you posting for him is bullshitty.
OMG Priam: People crave answers. I talk with him. I provide what information I can.
Arch mage144: He should post for himself that he has no authority. That if people just "didn't listen to him" it would have been okay.
OMG Priam: Also, I go to work and be late.
Arch mage144: Have fun.
OMG Priam: Will do. <p>

---

<div style="text-align:center"></div>

</p>

[FF Fanatic 80]

One thing that keeps getting mentioned as an aside in this thread is "Other factors" that contributed to the current state of things. I've been mulling over this for a long time, even prior to things coming to a head here. And I need to say this stuff now, and deal with it now. Even if it's going to go somewhat off-topic. But like I said in the subject, I don't care.

I'm partially to blame for all this shit too.

I've watched all this slowly building up over time. People who were friends becoming angry with one another. Factions forming up within the community. The tone of the forum changing from lighthearted to uptight and condescending.

And I never did anything.

Not one.

Damn.

Thing.


I've been with this community for nearly 5 years, since the old days of Keenspace's topic eating forums. As much as I don't like to think about it, I've always known that my opinion can carry a lot of weight with several people here. But I didn't use it then, when it could have made a difference. Did I worry about it going to my head? Did I think it was unfair to say something and know, even if I didn't acknowledge it publically, that people were more likely to agree with what I said than strangers, who could have a completely valid opinion? I really don't know which it is anymore. Maybe I was just afraid of making things worse.

But I still wonder, what if I'd just said something? What if I'd cared enough or had the balls to say "You know what? No. It ends NOW dammit." Maybe things wouldn't have spiraled out of control like they did. Maybe we'd still be having fun and thinking up new and fun things to do.

And it kills me. As pathetic as it sounds, it hurts me to see what's become of this place. I try to RP my characters, like Daniel, and all I can think of in the back of my mind, are people I had fun with and characters he shared a history with who are no longer around anymore. He never speaks with Aya anymore, Dia Rai is nowhere to be found, Raptre has not been sighted in years, Jak Snide has gone off to who-knows-where, Kerov (Squintz) never bar hops anymore, Kotoki's Inn is just a memory. Even Daniel's wife is never around for him to be sappy with. In a way, I guess it reflects how I feel about the people in the community too. I miss these people, just talking to them and seeing how things are, even if its not always good news.

Part of my fun here, even though I never really confessed to it before, was entertaining people. Whether it was being silly in the spammy days, or having Daniel and Stephan and co. do outrageous stuff in the middle of an RP, I liked seeing how people reacted and building off it. I liked knowing people enjoyed what I did, and looking forward to thinking of more fun things to do. But as people has slowly left or become less involved, it's felt more and more pointless to do it. Why bother developing Daniel's dark past, if no one else is around who gives a fuck? Why RP if the only person it's going to matter to is you? That's what writing fiction is for.

It probably sounds horribly elitist to say all that, and I suppose it is. But these people mean a lot to me, and it hurts to know some of them may no longer care about this community. For a long time, and in some ways it's still true, this community has been my only social outlet. To see it become what it has saddens me, not just because of the friendships being lost, or the world we created breaking apart. But because of the many unique and awesome people I've come to know here. How it all helped me become a much more open and expressive person.

And yet I can't seem to do a damn thing to save it, and it hurts.

Maybe that's why I just log into DaoC and don't bother with talking on AIM as much anymore. Sometimes, it just feels like there's really no one left around who cares, so I've slowly stopped caring too. When things have gone as bad as they have, what can I do? How can I fix this, if I'm the only one who wants to? Why should I bother, if others have stopped caring and have gone on to other things? Sometimes I think, maybe it's time I do that too.

So... yeah. That's all been on my mind for a long time. I don't want to see this place go down without a fight, but I often wonder who's left who wants to keep it alive.


As a final aside, I don't mean for people to feel guilty about going on to other things. I know that things change, and sometimes people have to move on. Especially things like moving out on your own, or being out of school and working. But, I guess part of me always hoped the community could still work, even with the changes in our lives. Maybe in some cases, that's not possible. I don't know, really. I sure as hell wish I did.

And apologies if this is horribly, horribly off-topic.

[GC130A]

What follows will likely be a restatement of what people have said already, only they said it more eloquently. Still...

I remember there being a backlash against Pervy and his way of doing things, right around the time of the war. In the end, he went off by himself and did his own thing. Beldad and whatnot. Separation was the only peaceful solution we could find.

Well, here we're seeing it again. And we're going to get the same result. And why shouldn't we? The complaints are legitimate but everybody's emotions look like they're running far, far too high for this to end well. I can only say what I think it seems like (and no man would be happier to be wrong), but this reeks of a witch-hunt. This isn't about righting past wrongs. This is about blood. Again, I couldn't be gladder if I'm wrong.

And for all this talk of apology, where is the talk of forgiveness? Everybody's done stupid shit. Brian's covered it somewhat in saying that he doesn't want Pervy to leave, and that he only wants him to apologize. But a lot of the rest practically screams "you have no place here. Get the fuck out and take your methods with you." I realize that an apology will make people feel better. But isn't an apology also to ask for forgiveness? It might help matters if we awknowledged that he's done good things for us as well as bad, and that even if the stupid shit he's pulled needs to stay at the door, he's not going to be crucified for being here.

But then, what do I know?

[Kelne]

It looks like this has been a long time coming, and recent events have just set things off, unleashing a considerable amount of pent-up resentment against Pervy. And not without cause.

Attempting to dissect Pervy's side of the story, his motives and whatnot, or whether he feels he's in the wrong seems to be a waste of time in his absense. Priam may be serving as a go-between, but I don't think he or anyone else can truly claim to speak for Pervy. Whether we agree with his stance on this or not, he's obviously not going to post in this thread, so directing criticism at him here is clearly a waste of time. Frustrating, but inescapable.

By this point, I think everyone has enough information on the subject. What they choose to do with that information is up to them. Unless we want to instigate some sort of official reprimand as a whole, I think the subject should be closed.

Hard feelings and possible lack of closure aside, I think that Pervy should be given a second chance. If he chooses to withdraw himself from the community, well, that's his decision. I'll be sorry to see him go, as will many people, I suspect.

On the topic of shadowy conspiracies and harrassment in general, I can only ask that if anyone feels they're being victimised, they should let other people know about it. If there are genuine issues, someone without a personal stake in things may be able to act as a mediator. If not, they can tell the instigator to knock it off.

To anyone who's approached with the question 'do you think this is broken?' I'd advise you to make very sure you have your facts straight before jumping in. If this means speaking privately with both sides, then go ahead and do that. Politely.

Quite frankly, I do not want the need for this sort of topic to arise again. But nor do I want to see people driven away or cowed into silence because of behind-the-scenes issues. We all lose when that happens. <p>Centuries of threats of "I'll turn you all to stone!" and "I'll knock you all down!" have caused Domans to develop an instinct to form small groups. For safety, I assure you. – Keir</p>

[Uncle Pervy]

Please stop harassing Shini. I am aware of this thread.

And, simply put, I have no desire to argue either way. Nothing is going to be achieved. All it's going to lead to is more bad feelings for a lot of people. I've been sick of arguing for awhile, thus my general absence from the OOC forum for the past few few months, and I doubt I can convince anyone who's already convinced themselves.

For what it's worth, Shini and I have spoken about things. I suspect it will be taken a few different ways by different people, but that's how things tend to be. <p>---------------------------

ReakoSomner: regardless, I was poor, and in need of diamonds</p>