Proposed Elemental system for PS

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NamagomiMk0
 
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Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:22 am

Okay. I know how we're all used to using FF's little "Resist, Immune, or Absorb" dealie. However, I also know how limiting that is to certain characters. As well, the act of covering elemental weaknesses with MBlock is one I'm also familiar with. Therefore, I am proposing here a new element system.

Starting off:
Each elemental modifier has a base value of 10. Of course, you do not gain benefits from the base value. A 10% increase in resistance decreases the value by one, and a 10% weakness increases it by one. To calculate MBlock modifiers for elemental weaknesses or strengths, you add (10-resist) to your MBlock against that attack. Note that negative resist values are possible.

Now, what if something actually breaks through your MBlock and hits you? As far as resistance goes, in order to fully beat resist, you have to beat the MBlock+Resist value. Otherwise, multiply the damage by (1-difference/10), difference being the difference between your roll and the combined MBlock+Resist value. Negative numbers may or may not be counted as healing, and a zero obviously means no effect. If the modified MBlock+resist value is beaten, the spell has normal effect. Additionally, critical hits are ONLY counted after beating the modified MBlock+resist value (In other words, beat resist by 15)

Oh, but what about weakness? It's simple. In this case, the modified MBlock is the roll you have to beat, not the normal MBlock. Sorry, guys, can't cover so easily for weaknesses by just doing that. If you beat the modified resist value, but not the MBlock, multiply damage by (1+difference/10). If MBlock is beaten, simply multiply damage by (Resist value/10). Criticals may or may not be counted after Resist is beaten, I'm still trying to think that one out.

Anyway, commentary and assistance would be welcome. <p>ChibiUrusai: *chomps* I am underage. ^-^
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Archmage144
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Archmage144 » Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:15 pm

...why are there so many numbers? I've read this through like four times and I'm still not sure how all the math works. Combat with Philsys already takes long enough--having to do a billion calculations regarding different types of elemental resistance would only bog things down.

FF, by the way, isn't the only game in which resistance somewhat functions that way--3rd Edition DnD uses a system where resistance is a number by which damage is reduced, and vulnerabilities usually mean double damage (except on a successful save).

Edit: Maybe your idea just needs rewording? <p>
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</p>Edited by: [url=http://pub30.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=archmage144>Archmage144</A]&nbsp; Image at: 4/2/04 7:16 pm

Divinegon2130
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Divinegon2130 » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:28 pm

Okay, I'm going to try an example or two to see if I can clarify the math.

Example One: Suppose a creature has a 70% resistance to fire. The reduction in the 'resist value' is 7, meaning the creature adds +7 to its resist roll (since 10 - 7, the first calculation, is 3, and then 10 - 3, the second calculation, is 7) against fire.

Now, that means that a fire spell cast at it would require a roll 8 higher than the creature's MBlock roll (one higher than the combined MBlock+Resist) to affect a creature normally with fire.

Let's suppose the same fire spell's MAttack roll fails to beat the standard MBlock by 3. The damage is multiplied by (1 - 3/10), or .7 (as in 70%).

Also, as a secondary note, a fire spell would require a roll of 23 higher than the creature's MBlock to get a critical hit.

Example Two: Let's suppose the same creature has a (1.5)x weakness against thunder (meaning it takes 150% damage from thunder, or 50% more than the norm). The modifier to this creature's MBlock rolls against thunder is -5 (5 is the increase in the base resist value, for a total of 15, and 10 - 15 is negative 5).

What this means is that a lightning spell can affect the creature if the MAttack roll is within 5 points of successfully beating the standard MBlock. Now, some rewording is needed here, to state again that the difference between the MBlock+Resist modifier (less than the standard MBlock in this case) and the roll is the 'difference' used in the calculations. So if a lightning spell missed the normal MBlock by, say, 3, then the damage of the spell would be multiplied by (1 + 2/10) or 1.2 (120%), because 2 is the difference between the MBlock+Resist roll and the MAttack roll. If the lightning spell beat the standard MBlock, however, damage would simply be multipled by 1.5 (the resist value is 15, and 15/10 is 1.5).

Here, I say a critical hit with a spell against a creature weak to an element should follow the modified MBlock, not the standard MBlock. The one exception I can think of is when the MBlock is reduced by more than 15 to account for weakness, at which I say the MAttack roll should beat the standard MBlock for a critical to happen. (This exception is tentative, pending the discovery of a logical underpinning to further prove the point, but then again, how many creatures are THIS weak to an element?)

Also, as for doing the calculations..... GMs can generally do that kind of thing ahead of time. I'm actually considering making a table for this to illustrate things better. <p>

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Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby pd Rydia » Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:34 pm

If it's not broken, why fix it? <p>
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Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Spleen » Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:39 am

Maybe if Doug can explain the "limits" that the existing system creates, we can understand the merits of his system better?

But I agree with Brian on the too-much-math thing. But Div's pre-rolling solution could work, too. <p>_________________
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Archmage144
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Archmage144 » Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:44 am

Div's explanation basically clarifies nothing. Who cares if your magic spell deals an extra 50% damage, 70% damage, 100% damage, or e^x% damage?

RPGs use simple and quick to calculate math without dozens of things to add and subtract for a reason--look at DnD, which ditched THAC0 because people didn't like having to juggle only three numbers at a time. Incorporating bonuses to magic resist rolls for certain types of elemental resistance, or penalties to rolls for weakness, isn't a bad idea, though. <p>
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Uncle Pervy
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Uncle Pervy » Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:47 am

It lacks Log of 10 basis. Correct this and we'll talk.

Edit: Aw, AM beat me to the reference ;_;

Edited by: Uncle Pervy&nbsp; Image at: 4/3/04 12:53 am

Divinegon2130
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Divinegon2130 » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:06 am

In an attempt to be useful here, for Spleen's sake I'm going to try and explain what I think the 'limits' of the existing system are.

Mainly, I think Doug's claiming the existing system, combined with GM tendencies, makes certain elements far too favored and other elements nigh-useless. The other concern is the 'covering weaknesses' problem. Meaning that some characters' MBlock stats are being increased solely to counter the problem of elemental weaknesses.

I think the entire problem here is the sides being taken on issues such as this. Doug and I (dunno who else), as far as I can tell, favor more balance and accuracy in the system, while others prefer simplicity. <p>

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Also, if you have a question about my characters, look here. </span></p>

Archmage144
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Archmage144 » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:36 am

And I think that the "GM tendencies" argument is bullshit, because what it comes down to is that Doug wants to beat up "good" creatures. Which, incidentally, I have had occur in RPs--battles with celestials. The whole "GM tendencies" argument is silly because you can't argue with anything the GM does. If you want to go against the grain, that's fine with me, just don't bitch if you find yourself being less effective against the evil denizens of Gaera because you decided to major in Shadow Magic.

The MBlock "substat" increases as a side effect of COU and INT. Most people who increase COU do it for AT/PA and init--and most people who increase INT do it for magical power. Last I checked, it wasn't anyone's intent to "avoid" elemental weaknesses--and furthermore, you can count on one hand the number of characters who have elemental weaknesses. If this were really a problem, the SIMPLE solution would be to include a penalty to resist certain types of magic along with the damage increase--that solves both problems without having to consult a goddamned table because you can't do the math in your head. If you can't do the math in your head, it shouldn't be in an RPG. An extreme example is the "joke" system HYBRID, which uses LOGARITHMS to determine values of certain statistics based on other statistics.

If you want a rant on "balance," we'll go there next post. <p>
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Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby Mechanisto » Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:54 am

Now I'm even more confused about giving "[s] Resistance - Fire <Cou/Cou/Int>" to some of my characters.

Well, great. <p>---
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NamagomiMk0
 
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Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:20 am

Quote:
And I think that the "GM tendencies" argument is bullshit, because what it comes down to is that Doug wants to beat up "good" creatures. Which, incidentally, I have had occur in RPs--battles with celestials. The whole "GM tendencies" argument is silly because you can't argue with anything the GM does. If you want to go against the grain, that's fine with me, just don't bitch if you find yourself being less effective against the evil denizens of Gaera because you decided to major in Shadow Magic.


There's more to it than that, in actuality. With how some resists/immunities/absorptions work, it's as if it has a foolproof defense against that type of attack, regardless of how powerful it is. This has nothing to do with my tendency to go against the grain. Hell. This has nothing to do with me wanting to kick the asses of "good" creatures, either.

This has to do more with the fact that I feel that nothing short of an elemental god should have a foolproof defense against a respective element. No defense is perfect, and even the sturdiest of defenses crumples with enough force applied. You can't quite call that detail mongering, either, since it's a general fact that anything has its threshold, and as soon as that's broken, it hurts it as much as anyone else.
If anything, this, or at least the idea I've been ramming into everyone's head as of this post, could be used to good dramatic effect.

Also, Brian, I don't like to put things in terms of "good" and "evil". Doing that forces certain creatures into stereotypical roles, and we don't need more of that, what with all the stereotypical thinking we already have. Plus, it makes it feel more like a stereotypical world, where there's "evil" out to kill people and the like. Truth being, I prefer the idea of "shades of gray". Allows for more freedom in general, without having to be relegated to "good/evil/bystander" roles here.

-EDIT-By the way, Mechanisto, no, you can't learn resistance. It has to be innate. -/EDIT-

-EDIT MK2- Also, Brian. This system wasn't for PCs only. When you say that so few PCs have elemental properties, and even less of those increase MBlock, you have the issue of GM creations with high MBlock that covers for elemental weaknesses, rendering those a null point, as the MBlock can't be broken anyway, under normal PS rules.

Anyway, enough of that. <p>ChibiUrusai: *chomps* I am underage. ^-^
Arch mage144: This means nothing to me. =P
T3chn0Namagomi: *motherly voice* Brian! What would Kate think if she heard you say that?!

---Dirtiness in a chat. Blame my mind for being in the gutter.

-Namagomi, who lives up to his name in this case.</p>Edited by: [url=http://pub30.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=namagomimk0>NamagomiMk0</A] at: 4/3/04 8:47 am

JoshuaDurron
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby JoshuaDurron » Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:31 pm

::stabs a Demon with a Holy sword.::

MBlock this, bastard. >:


The point of that? There's more ways to deal elemental damage than "WAUGH MAGIC SPELL BOOM!"

What am I trying to say? Either find ways around MBlock through creative strategies, or increase the stats needed to get a higher MAttack, or give your character a skill/tech that will increase the spell's efficiency, even if it is just vs. elements it will deal added damage too. No need to through a whole bunch of random extra numbers into the mix. <p>

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Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:45 am

Yes, but you can count the number of people with elemental weapons on one hand. People like using magic because it delivers a bigger boom, faster. That, and it can be made to look really kickass and flashy.

Can't do the same with a weapon. Painful, maybe, but not flashy. It's all about the big damage numbers and big flashy effects, I'd say. <p>ChibiUrusai: *chomps* I am underage. ^-^
Arch mage144: This means nothing to me. =P
T3chn0Namagomi: *motherly voice* Brian! What would Kate think if she heard you say that?!

---Dirtiness in a chat. Blame my mind for being in the gutter.

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JoshuaDurron
 

Re: Proposed Elemental system for PS

Unread postby JoshuaDurron » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:20 am

1) Any elemental mage can at least temporarily give a weapon elemental properties.

2) Big flashy effects are backed by big, serrious numbers on the character sheet. If you've got those, the magic will work. If nothing else, I can see a tech based on Applied Magical Theory to give bonuses based on elemental natures. Example:

Roy is a fire mage facing an ice dragon. He casts a fire spell augmented by the Elemental Balance tech, which allows him to add his AMT ranks to his MAttack if the caster is using a spell of an elemental type the target is weak against. He gets a +6 to MAttack. Enough to balance an 'artificially' hightened MBlock.

3) Creatures with elemental properties have them because they already live and breath magic. They're supposed to be good with it- offensively and defensively. <p>

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