The RPGWW Nation?

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Kai
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The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:28 pm

For my course in nationalism, I'm seriously considering writing my final paper on this forum.

I'm obviously going to need a lot of help from you guys, since a lot of the "nation building" process happened way before my time. However! I've already found several analogs between the way nationalist theory evaluates a nation or state, and the way that RPGWW seems to operate. Specifically, how the creation of a roleplaying setting helped create an online nation, and how aspects of this nation are analogous to many conditions of more traditional nation-states.

<ol>
<LI>The first issue that arises is the obvious lack of a geographical territory that we all share. However, there are counter-examples that reduce this problem. One good one is the so-called "Indian nation" which arose around the sixties and seventies out of the remaining Native American tribes. They had no physical territory in common, and often shared no common language but English. The Amish could be viewed as another nation that doesn't have a formal territory.

<LI>Nations are often expected to have a common language within the group, but this doesn't have to be unique. Obviously the need to communicate is the root cause of that one. English is the main language here, but I'm pretty sure there are people on the forum who do not speak it as a first language.

<LI>Despite the fact that a unique forum-only language is not necessary, we do have one. Philsys. You can use it here and most people will know what you mean, but it isn't worth a damn anywhere else. People there communicate and settle disputes using other systems. However, this one works for us and sets us apart.

<LI>Nations require a shared history, or at least the impression of a shared history. "Objective" history lends itself rather poorly to this, so history is often re-interpreted or re-constructed. The official version of history may be disputed viciously, depending on what the official vision for the nation is going to be. I don't think I have to say much to connect this with disputes over Gaeran canon.

<LI>Traditions that are unique to the forum? Well, let's rephrase. Very few nations have truly unique traditions. What's most important is that they be perceived or portrayed as unique. One thing that many seem to feel sets RPGWW apart from much of the uncharted wilderness on the internet is "proper" grammar and use of English. The rules are eased for non-native speakers, but still.

<LI>Economic bonds between members: Each year RPGWW likes to renew that shiny gold membership because we don't want to bother with ads and all that crap. Near as I can tell, this is at least partly a collective effort. It's certainly an economic goal we can all appreciate.

<LI>National symbols? These are often totally random and arbitrary symbols that are given meaning they'd never have had otherwise. The mundane significance of the symbol is all but forgotten in the face of this new meaning. One word: Corn.

<LI>National holidays or festivals? Conventions seem like they're often more of an excuse to get together as RPGWWers than an opportunity to dress up like anime characters and buy super-fun dice. The conventions come around at about the same time every year, and the same general group of people seems to be involved with them every year. Once again, I'll need help from longer-standing forum members on this one. This is just the impression I've gotten.

<LI>Historical artifacts? Well..... we can't really have archaeological artifacts to leave behind and prove we were here. I mean, this is the internet. What we do have is artwork. I present fanart as a form of digital artifact, much of which is left behind by RPGWWers who are no longer active, portrays characters long forgotten by most, and is preserved as a record of the past and someone's hard work.

<LI>Opposition with other groups: One common characteristic of a nation is the need to define oneself in the context of others. In short, a "them" to our "us." There are two possible examples of this.

Example one: Rivalry or bad blood between "Gaeran" RPers and "Elemaer" RPers. Players in the two settings, whether this was initially the intention or not, are often divided along lines of loyalty or allegiance, becoming associated with one setting or the other.

Example two: This one requires a lot of assistance from someone who was there for the crazy spammy war with the Adventurers forum. But come on. A damn war. How can I resist that?

<LI>Endogamy: How many people date or have dated within the forum, despite geographical boundaries? It's not uncommon, and considering the physical barriers often involved with in-forum dating, people still do it.

<LI>Finally, a theorist named Gellner proposed that each nation needs a class of people called "clerks." In most nations these are the white-collar workers, trained for the specific purpose of accomplishing whatever goals will apparently enhance or further the aims of the nation. Clerks come about when you get standardized education systems, but are usually only useful in their native nation.

I saw a bit of a parallel with the gamemasters on the forum. They aren't the elite, but they're often a different sort of roleplayer, and a different sort of RPGWWer. Also, while a gamemaster here can GM elsewhere, the Gaeran setting is often a big part of it (as is Philsys, if we want to be really old-school).
</ol>


Anyway. Something for people to think about. If you have anything to add, or any criticism to help me keep on track, I'd appreciate whatever you've got. It would be much easier to write a paper about a nation if I have some informants. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby pd Rydia » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:51 pm

<small>1. The first issue that arises is the obvious lack of a geographical territory that we all share. However, there are counter-examples that reduce this problem. One good one is the so-called "Indian nation" which arose around the sixties and seventies out of the remaining Native American tribes. They had no physical territory in common, and often shared no common language but English. The Amish could be viewed as another nation that doesn't have a formal territory.</small>

This reminds me of something I read once in psychology class, junior year. There was a list of common things people desire in a mate, and then the question: "Which do you think is the most important indicating factor for whether or not a relationship will be successful?" The answer was, in the end, "geographical proximity" (in those words, I believe)--the reasoning being that it's hard to have a relationship if you never see each other. Some of my classmates were perturbed, nonetheless.

The textbook was copyright the year I was born, or thereabouts--early 1980s. I'm interested in seeing the difference in how the INTARWEBS may have changed such things--it's a lot easier to socialize and get to know someone, I think (and cheaper, too, if you're piggybacking off an existing service) online than over previous long-distance methods, which would give stronger incentives for making things work.

AT ANY RATE, that's a long tangent mainly to illustrate an idea I have that "geography" had much greater importance in the past than it does now. I still feel it's taking a while to sink in with a lot of traditional thinking about things.


Which is not to say, it isn't important. We had a pretty strong drive to meet up with each other in person, I'd say. RPGWWcons are a bit hit--at least, I enjoy them quite a good deal.

There's also to consider the changing definition of territory. We certainly share territory. That would be the board, the website, the wiki, and such. There's a very physical manifestation of such data, as well; I lived with the zeke-server for years.



<small>2. Nations are often expected to have a common language within the group, but this doesn't have to be unique. Obviously the need to communicate is the root cause of that one. English is the main language here, but I'm pretty sure there are people on the forum who do not speak it as a first language.</small>

Glu-glu speaks English--he's gotten better since first posting, but it's been, what, 4 years? I believe I first found out Daien was from Malta when he wrote a fic, and I critiqued the stiff wording. JediAl natively spoke--Russian, wasn't it?--but I couldn't tell. Really, I couldn't.

There's also jargon and in-jokes, which are very much their own language. Some of this is unique to a larger community of like interests--gaming, RPing, anime--and some of it has been molded specifically to our forum. You can see some people feeling awkward, like they don't understand what's being said, in chat--that's what's going on.

I think there are two main communication obstacles:

• One, spelling. To me, it used to be that reading typo-ridden messages was like hearing someone with a really horrible speech impediment. It wasn't until I realized why it bothered me--making just that comparison, actually--that I realized what a jerk I was being to people who I understood perfectly, but ragged on because of how they typed.

• Two, the jargon. It's not so much that we've made it out to be exclusive--most of us, anyway, most of the time (har har, dummy doesn't know what an RP is!)--it's that some folk are used to the social norm of Do Not Ask. You don't ask what something is, when everyone else seems to know the answer. You don't ask to have an in-joke explained to you, or whatever--because that will show that you're ignorant, an outsider, and open you up for poking fun at.

(To be fair, must of us won't explain an in-joke. Ask about Vulture, and we'll tell you that We See).



<small>3. Despite the fact that a unique forum-only language is not necessary, we do have one. Philsys. You can use it here and most people will know what you mean, but it isn't worth a damn anywhere else. People there communicate and settle disputes using other systems. However, this one works for us and sets us apart.</small>

You can think of Philsys in terms of dialect, considering how similar it is to some other systems--being based off GURPS. You may not be able to use it in other places, but it can certainly give you insight to other related dialects and languages.


<small>4. Nations require a shared history, or at least the impression of a shared history. "Objective" history lends itself rather poorly to this, so history is often re-interpreted or re-constructed. The official version of history may be disputed viciously, depending on what the official vision for the nation is going to be. I don't think I have to say much to connect this with disputes over Gaeran canon.</small>

We're not even sure when RPGWW "started." Last discussion over it, it was suggested that C_C's comic should be the starting point, but even that's a bit arbitrary. One could also pick the RP The Hit, Archmage's first RP, Rube's joining date, the joining date of the second RPGWWer (making a group)...etc. etc.

Don't think we can count the number of forum switches before we came to ezBoard.

Gaera canon...there's been shifting emphasis over it over time. The RPing portion of the community started off a relatively small section of a small community, and grew to a larger section of a large community. At first, it wasn't unreasonable to think to come to a consensus about the canon, satisfying everyone. Now...



<small>5. Traditions that are unique to the forum? Well, let's rephrase. Very few nations have truly unique traditions. What's most important is that they be perceived or portrayed as unique. One thing that many seem to feel sets RPGWW apart from much of the uncharted wilderness on the internet is "proper" grammar and use of English. The rules are eased for non-native speakers, but still.</small>

Oh, we have plenty traditions.

April Fool's. Posticons. Custom Postranks (asked for and otherwise). Postwars (isn't it time for another by now?). Random Banning (needs to be a tradition). Most in-jokes. Fanart. Comics. Kotoki's Inn. Inn destruction. The backroom. Number Five. Certain families in RPs (Tymisonns, for instance).

And so one.

Some are very little. Some are larger. Some are more unique to people or subgroups than the whole group--such as the English thing. Consulting the forum at large about important changes.

Another thing that seems to set us apart, to me, is the openness--in the sense of, real names, faces, locales. There was one point in time that I knew the names, cities, states, and faces of nearly everyone on the board I talked to. That was Brian that started that.



<small>6. Economic bonds between members: Each year RPGWW likes to renew that shiny gold membership because we don't want to bother with ads and all that crap. Near as I can tell, this is at least partly a collective effort. It's certainly an economic goal we can all appreciate.</small>

There are some commissions outside of that, too. If I'm going to commission an artist for something, I'll probably go to someone I know--like an RPGWW artist. And if I feel like buying a random DA subscription, it'll almost certainly be for a RPGWWer. I remember getting a Christmas gift (LJ subscription) from Adam once--that was cool. I also baked cookies (that counts as money, right?) at Christmas for peeps. And if I'm ready to part with something too good for tossing away (comic, book, shirt, etc.), then a RPGWWer may well be on the receiving end.


<small>7. National symbols? These are often totally random and arbitrary symbols that are given meaning they'd never have had otherwise. The mundane significance of the symbol is all but forgotten in the face of this new meaning. One word: Corn.</small>

=D
Vulture was our symbol once. And RPG World. Corn, tee hee! I also have a tendency to be reminded of members by things like, say, stone pineapples.



<small>8. National holidays or festivals? Conventions seem like they're often more of an excuse to get together as RPGWWers than an opportunity to dress up like anime characters and buy super-fun dice. The conventions come around at about the same time every year, and the same general group of people seems to be involved with them every year. Once again, I'll need help from longer-standing forum members on this one. This is just the impression I've gotten.</small>

Offline: The Ohio Ren Fair has been annual, almost--I don't think anyone went to 2005? Sugoicon has been annual since the first attendance, 2002. Also, the board spiffs up at Christmas (if -I- have anything to say about it).
When the website is back up, browse through http://zeke.tzo.com/rpgww/meets/ . That has a listing of the cons attended, + month and year, and the photos, of course. There's a list of just the conventions and times on the wiki at http://mysidia.org/rpgww/index.php?title=RPGWWcons .


Online: Earlier on the board--UBB times--there were semi-regular "successive spam" threads. Before the days of "hay guys, let's get on AIM and do this there!" Someone would notice that there'd be someone posting in reply to them, and then there'd be a whole shitfuckton of back-and-forth posting. It could last hours. By then, others would be joining in. "This is becoming strange...", a post by Chrono_Catfish, was one of these, and there were several later incarnations.

I'd dare say FFF's sprite threads--and similar such threads by others--count in this category. He started a whole bloody trend, but few could keep up with him. I know, though, everyone'd be all "Holy shit, FFF posted a sprite thread! GO CLICKY!", and everyone else would be, "H00rj!" Each of these threads would be a right celebration, a center of joyousness and silly-making.


RP: On Halloween and other such holidays, there have been IC-OOC RPs (take your character into an RP, but it's outside the canon). There are also IC festivals for shits and giggles--the Kitiwai Karnival, Ishmas, and the such. Because they're just fun to do.



<small>9. Historical artifacts? Well..... we can't really have archaeological artifacts to leave behind and prove we were here. I mean, this is the internet. What we do have is artwork. I present fanart as a form of digital artifact, much of which is left behind by RPGWWers who are no longer active, portrays characters long forgotten by most, and is preserved as a record of the past and someone's hard work.</small>

The Corn Sign. I have three of them, actually--one's temporary, on graph paper--the first one is retired, the other is the new one. Also, cans of corn. I...don't remember which conventions they all were from, anymore. :[ But I have them. Shini may still have his mystery can, and last I checked, Adam still had his Peanut Butter (thread is http://p068.ezboard.com/frpgww60462frm1 ... D=35.topic , but the image is down until Zeke is back up).

We also have some photographs (mostly online, though I have some hardcopies) and artwork (same as last parenthetical remark).

I also have given and received gifts. For instance, I have a little red dragon from Seph, which is one of the awesomest things I've gotten. See, he left a message on the forum, saying he wouldn't be posting for a while. Going out west, I believe he said. I posted, "Bring me back a dragon!" in all glibness, because it seemed like the right thing to do. And he did. So it's cool, and I keep it near my computer and remember Red Mage Rydia.



<small>10. Opposition with other groups: One common characteristic of a nation is the need to define oneself in the context of others. In short, a "them" to our "us." There are two possible examples of this.

Example one: Rivalry or bad blood between "Gaeran" RPers and "Elemaer" RPers. Players in the two settings, whether this was initially the intention or not, are often divided along lines of loyalty or allegiance, becoming associated with one setting or the other.

Example two: This one requires a lot of assistance from someone who was there for the crazy spammy war with the Adventurers forum. But come on. A damn war. How can I resist that?</small>

Ha! The ADV! War. Let's see.

Some of the RPG World and ADV! readerships overlapped. The authors were on good terms I do believe--had a good crossover going at one point. At one rate, a few of us lurked the ADV! forums. I did, from time to time, when my interests weren't capitvated elsewhere.

Others may need to correct me on this: ADV! had invaded message boards before. Someone had taken it badly, another had taken it well (OT board?). They felt like another invasion. Silly little spammy thing.

LordMcBastard asked me one IM if ADV! could "kidnap" me to start a "war" with RPGW/W. After the initial WTF, I thought it was neat, and said sure.

It started at some time I wasn't online, and some people had a hard time telling IC and OOC apart. I remember Cho and Lex hamming it up. Cho was RPing Nameless. Darkwolf was trolling the forum, which didn't help keeping things IC. Some ADV!ers, OOCly--in chat or another thread, I don't recall--felt the need to express their distaste for the style of RPGW/W revelery, which also didn't help. Also, the board format wasn't fit for an invasion. At all. The war moved to ADV! at some point.

I don't remember much else. Just that there was a lot of pot-kettle-black, and it should have been a lot more fun.

Part of the RP is logged on the site. In the Darkness of the Night.

Ash and Archmage got promoted. That stayed canon. Most of the war was not canon.

There's a few fancomics about the invasion. Greatdave and LMB made them, I believe.


At one time there was a split between groups of RPers who would RP with each other. RPers like GeoCSuppi, Bunnygirle, or Ash Fanrico, were more inclusive, but others were much less so. RPs in the forum were...interesting. Board CIRPs were a place where these two groups could RP together--sometimes there were clashes, but most times they avoided each other ICly, much like how different subgroups in a college segregate themselves from others.



<small>11. Endogamy: How many people date or have dated within the forum, despite geographical boundaries? It's not uncommon, and considering the physical barriers often involved with in-forum dating, people still do it.</small>

A lot. I'm not up to date on my current RPGWW couple gossip, but Mike and I have just finished up our premarriage prep, and have to do all the other stuff.


<small>12. Finally, a theorist named Gellner proposed that each nation needs a class of people called "clerks." In most nations these are the white-collar workers, trained for the specific purpose of accomplishing whatever goals will apparently enhance or further the aims of the nation. Clerks come about when you get standardized education systems, but are usually only useful in their native nation.

I saw a bit of a parallel with the gamemasters on the forum. They aren't the elite, but they're often a different sort of roleplayer, and a different sort of RPGWWer. Also, while a gamemaster here can GM elsewhere, the Gaeran setting is often a big part of it (as is Philsys, if we want to be really old-school).</small>

I might want to read more about this in detail. I'm not really sure I see the similarity too much, but it could be limited information. <p>
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Idran1701 » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:03 pm

I don't have anything to contribute in terms of research, but I would be interested in reading this paper once you've completed it, if you do end up using RPGWW as your topic.

I do have a question of my own, though, knowing nothing at all about nationalism as a course of study. What would be the topic of this paper? Just demonstrating how online communities are similar in ways to actual nations? Or perhaps gaining the ability to make generalized statements about the future of such communities through similar statements that can be made about physical nations, by abstracting the concept out a degree? <p>

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</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=idran1701>Idran1701</A] at: 3/28/06 19:05

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:24 pm

Dia: Gellner's theories are a little weird in that regard, and I think it's because "clerk" has a totally different meaning now than it did back in the day when he was writing. The idea is basically that there are the "elite," or the people who decide what's going to happen, like mods or admins could be. Then there are the clerks that perpetuate whatever standard is decided upon.

Now, there are the people who created the setting and are listed as authorities for many of the locations, races, etc. Then there are the gamemasters. These are the people who perpetuate what the elite have created or decided upon.

Idran: At this point I'm still exploring a specific topic, but I think I'm okay to stop at proving an internet community (specifically RPGWW) can be considered a nation. I don't know that I'm ready to speculate about where it's going from the knowledge I've got, but the parallels are interesting. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Spleen » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:57 pm

I don't really think there's much of a "rivalry" going on between Gaera or Elemaer, much less "bad blood". I'm probably the only one "loyal" to Elemaer, because it's my setting and I put thought into it, and I don't think that counts. Literally everyone with Elemaer characters has as many or more characters in Gaera. I don't think you have enough of a basis there for "opposition with other groups", especially since any perceived rivalry would have to be internal, because the Elemaer cast is composed of RPGWWers. <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Capntastic » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:13 am

Elemaer is part of RPGWW just as much as Dark Future or MAC is.


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Kai
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:44 am

I didn't say that it wasn't. I don't know why people seem to think that there can't be conflict within a group.

Think about it. America is a nation, and despite all of the claims made to homogeneity (We all have the same wonderful American dream! We all voted for Bush and that's why he's president!), America is not homogeneous. There's enough diversity within the nation that yeah. Sometimes you get conflict.

What had me thinking about it was the chat the other night in which Spleen made a comment about the advantages to developing a character in Elemaer. The response in Gaera's "defense" seemed very... well, nationalist. Even as I was responding to Spleen, I couldn't help but notice that I was exhibiting loyalty to some perceived group, some imagined community that is Gaera. Apparently if I feel as though my 'nation' requires defense in a discussion I do it. It's not relevant whether that's always (or ever) necessary. It's a digression that I'm not going to indulge right now.

This thread isn't some kind of veiled 'proof' that Elemaer and it's RPers are outsiders, so I'm going to head that off right now. Part of me knew that someone would take that and run with it. The reason I included the bit about Elemaer was what I just mentioned: This isn't about whether Elemaer is a part of the nation. It's about the nationalist sentiment that the comparison of the two settings can bring out. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A]&nbsp; Image at: 3/29/06 9:45

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Wolfbelly » Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:47 pm

What the? I can't believe no one's said this before ...

[font size=4]NNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
DDD!!!!!!!!!
[/font]

^_^

<p>Image</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dragonmistressscv>DragonMistressSCV</A] at: 4/25/06 1:48

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:55 pm

Once again you prove yourself totally incapable of contributing anything productive to a discussion. If you aren't going to be helpful, don't say anything. No one's impressed.

I posted this because I genuinely wanted input from people. I'm doing this project because every college professor I've spoken to about it has been interested. It's probable that they're nerds. After all, they're scholars. But these nerds get more respect than you ever will. Particularly from me.

Anyone have anything productive to add? <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A]&nbsp; Image at: 4/15/06 16:58

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Banjooie » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:33 pm

*says nothing* <p><Chat> <Matto says, "What's up?"
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Angst."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Drama."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Betrayal."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Plushies."</p>

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby NamagomiMk0 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:46 am

In the case of #10, I'm tempted to think of the number of, well, idiots, that have popped up from here to there, as well. Particularly, our stance on English, amongst other things, and standards on character quality, are possible proof of such a thing in regards to "forum lamers" such as Prince of Doma, xMogxMooglex, Thalakos, Bob_stalkerbitch, Gamestar, and other such people.

Also, a division based on "playstyle" or "preference" might exist, as I have stated before on IM. I can define who's generally on what side of this division, but I'll not, for the sake of avoiding inciting a thread war and/or lynching. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=namagomimk0>NamagomiMk0</A] at: 4/20/06 6:47

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Archmage144 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:48 pm

There is indeed a definite disparity between different RPers regarding the types of RPs they enjoy, the mindset which they use when creating and developing characters, and the approach to roleplaying as a whole.

Not necessarily sure myself what it has to do with RPGWW as a nation unless of course you want to talk about its "sub-nations" and "internal conflict." <p>
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:22 pm

Well, different people have different ideas about what RPGWW is all about. I mean, virtually everyone has their own idea of what makes RPGWW special in some way, but there are trends. I guess you could call it the RP equivalent of political parties. Everyone agrees that RP is good, but the style depends largely on how people think RP should be accomplished. <p>-------------------------
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Ganonfro » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:40 am

As an addition to Dia's post on the ADV! War, as a veteran from it, I would like to admit to lighting a random granery on fire, while fighting Archmage. Since I was originally an Adv!er, I wasn't familiar with much of what went on around her, but eh...


This was just a bit of addition to that bit. If you want to know more, I'll dig up what I can from my memory about it.


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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:16 am

That would be wicked helpful. The project is due in a week or two, and that seems like a really interesting thing to include. <p>-------------------------
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Ganonfro » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:15 pm

Heh, what specifically would you like to know about? IM me sometime or ask on this. I'd be happy to help.


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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:29 pm

The real issue is that I wasn't here for any of that whole period, so when someone says one forum "invaded" another I have little to no concept of what that means. People reading my paper (like my teacher) will have even less of an idea.

So, I guess I'll start with that point of clarification. <p>-------------------------
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Idran1701 » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:37 pm

From what I remember, it was basically all the ADVers coming over here and taking part in a giant freestyle free-for-all battle. I only remember a few disparate scenes from that one. Some person from ADV that had power over nickels or something. Jinx hitting...I think LMB with a jester mallet in the castle. Someone that used programming powers to attack by rewriting parts of the world or some such. (I want to say that was either GreatDave or PhilDog)

This was apparantly followed up by a bunch of RPGWWers heading over to the ADV forums to do the same thing there, but I didn't follow that half of things. <p>

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:56 am

That's pretty true. The ADV! boards had a tradition of boardwise combat for characters, and in fact developed its own Duelling sub-board for the purposes of practicing such things. Man, that was fun times.

Anyway, the ADV!ers started a post up in this piece, and started ICly looting and pillaging the Doman castle. Some characters did more looting and pillaging than others, and some characters came by just to do combat. I had two...wait, no, three...characters in it who were of the latter distinction. It was a fun exercise in rabid-wombat style posting frenzy, and it had all manner of people checking up on it by the minute. I recall this being a good time; my Jedi duelled JediAl, Priam duelled someone else, and Drykr suffered various limb removal wounds as had become tradition in his battles. I kinda miss that bastard.

Where was I? Basically, the 'invasion' was kind of an excuse to get our two communities to mingle a little bit, as I see it, and it seems successful because at ADV! we had quite a few new posters for an extended period, and a number of us ADV!ers migrated here as well. It probably wouldn't have turned out that way if both ADV! and RPGWW as whole entities didn't take the whole thing quite so playfully. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Ganonfro » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:17 am

The whole ADV invasion was first started when we invaded a forum that a member named Tokkan went to. We didn't really like him, so we had even less reason to like them. We "looted" by claiming we stole random monuments that we knew about, and generally vandalized in a very silly and stupidly offensive way at times. This happened what... twice more, one being a relatliation of this incident, and then the one mentioned earlier. The OL board or something like that... I didn't really like them too much.

When we thought it was funny that the forums were having some interaction, we realized we left our fellow compatriots from RPGWW out, and what better way to involve them than I think 5 of us really thought it would be hilarious to just bust onto this site and start laying claim to any real or imaginary loot that we just managed to dream up at the time. Those 5 gathered more forces and we made a silly plan with silly objectives... Waited til what... 10 at night to start when most people were around, then were set loose.

So by invasion, I mean a bunch of us who were either friends with a bunch of the RPGWWers/ friends with the ones that also were Adv!ers, suddenly thought we'd prank the whole forum. Kind of like a frat would panty raid thier partner or the most hated sorority. The original idea I think was for the Adv!ers to kidnap Dia, with her consent if I'm not mistaken, after assaulting Doma Castle and cause random havok everywhere. We had a plan more detailed than that, but for not having thought of it in 3+ years, I think that would be enough.

I think that was around the time E-mus was known for his "Chorus of Kefka" additions to his posts, so if you opened a thread he posted in, you'd hear about 10 Kefka's wav files of "UWEHEHEHEHEHEHE"... It was annoying on both acounts when he did that.

In general, we were kind hearted about it, minus the god moders when the "fighting" happened. In the counter invasion, I remember specifically at Adv! we noticed that we ourselves were very much stupid for some of our actions, without knowing just how strong our opponents were and completely underestimated RPGWW for having an actual system to rate power... but then there were cases of people being like AshFanrico, who when he went on the counter invasion tried to challenge everyone he happened upon to a duel where he'd RP that they were crushed by his incredible powers and would disregard anything they tried to to back... Yeah. I remember.

If anything, the main thing it caused was actual relations between the two forums since we had more things to talk about afterwords and from mostly the more levelheaded people on both sides, we actually got along fine. Hell, because of that silly invasion, I actually felt an urge to get back with that wacky sense of forum going and ended up coming here after Adv! kind of... died for 3ish months, but that's a different time and much after these silly antics.

But yeah. That's the Adv!er's memory of a prank we played on friends, they pranked us back, and much fun and pie was had by all. Both sides claimed victories of random memorabilia, many egos were smashed from the realization, albeit painful at times, that their characters really weren't such hot shit. Since I wasn't around for most of it besides my little escapades, it was just a huge adlibbed rp that went a little too far at times, but it was just meant to be fun.

If anyone could add/correct any blatant errors in what I said, feel free, but that how I remember it.


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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:34 am

Wow. I appreciate all that info. All of you. I've actually always been curious as to how the hell that all happened. <p>-------------------------
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby pd Rydia » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:47 pm

<ul>"Basically, the 'invasion' was kind of an excuse to get our two communities to mingle a little bit, as I see it, and it seems successful because at ADV! we had quite a few new posters for an extended period, and a number of us ADV!ers migrated here as well. It probably wouldn't have turned out that way if both ADV! and RPGWW as whole entities didn't take the whole thing quite so playfully."</ul>Yeah, I remember that part now. The idea was to get the communities to mingle more. I remember thinking it was mostly a failure at the time; people who were already mingling (or had mingled in the past) started to mingle more, or come back. Mostly, people went and came several times--I know I found it hard to maintain my account on ADV! for very long stints. I think, though, more interaction was going on on AIM--chats, more notably IMs--and later, immigration went on.


And now I'm reminded: after the War, weren't there some collaborative RPs going on? I seem to remember some efforts on the ADV board (I think I may have participated in one for a while), and Excal set up the country of Curatori Faiyar to prepare for an RP on this board. <p>
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Archmage144 » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:00 pm

I was involved in an RP on the ADV! forum with Hakaril for a while, though it fell apart for whatever reason; I humorously remember Reako being totally lost when I told him that he should be the one who decided the outcome of several of my actions, because the idea of having a singular gamemaster was apparently mindblowing for the average ADV!er as far as forum RP went. <p>
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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:53 pm

Yeah, pretty much. We took the term 'collaborative storytelling' to a much more literal degree. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: The RPGWW Nation?

Unread postby Kai » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:21 pm

My project is due Monday, and I still have a few people I'd like to talk to over IM about a couple of things.

I'd like to catch up with Amanda, Kate, and possibly Koss if at all possible.

I also have a question for you guys. Level of civic participation often defines a "good citizen" in a nation. Levels of participation I've seen on the forum are, in some vague order, occasional chat-room participant, forum poster, role-player, and gamemaster.

The reason I include role-players and gamemasters as separate from the OOC activities of the forum is that they are the ones who reproduce and perpetuate the roleplaying "product" of this forum. Writing is cool and helpful, but it's less community-based because it doesn't really involve anyone else. RPing does. It cements the idea that this community roleplays together and produces storylines together.

Example: What this translates to in many nations is a symbolic importance placed on women, because they are expected to reproduce the values of the nation. Women are often used in artwork and literature as a symbol for the nation. See Lady Liberty, Marianne, Rosie the Riveter, etc. This is because women are the ones who are supposed to raise the new folk and teach them what's up while the menfolk go out and defend the values women reproduce. I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense.

Application of example: A large product of this forum is RP. Plots, characters, artwork, fics, etc. The people who reproduce this are the roleplayers and possibly to a greater extent, the gamemasters.

This isn't to say that roleplayers are less important, or that you have to be involved in RP to be a member of the community, but the impression that I've gotten is that people are expected to gamemaster rather than write much of the time, because GMing involves other members of the community and perpetuates the primary creative product: RP.

Here's my question, or at least something I was hoping to discuss. Do any of you feel that gamemastering implies a certain difference in status because of the level of participation it implies? If no, Is participation a pressing factor in status at all, or am I just not drawing the lines properly?

You guys would know, so I'm asking. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>

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Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Kai » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:47 pm

Here's my essay, when all's said and done.

So. Let's see what happens when I toss this to the sharks. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>Edited by: Kai&nbsp; Image at: 5/1/06 0:01

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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Besyanteo » Mon May 01, 2006 12:31 am

It's a good read, I think. Here's hoping your professor likes it as well! <p>
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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Capntastic » Mon May 01, 2006 1:08 am

It was pretty informative, but could have used some clarification in some parts. For instance, you mention Philsys being made by 'a man named Phil' without pointing out that Phil was a pretty integral part of early RPGWW.

It's still well written and covers all of the stuff it sets out to do.

Edit: Also, I hope your prof. isn't an ancient old man witha fierce hate the internet or something. All of the wacky forumer names and net-culture might infuriate him into punching a hole though his desk.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=capntastic>Capntastic</A]&nbsp; Image at: 5/1/06 1:10

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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Kai » Mon May 01, 2006 1:22 am

Actually, she did her doctoral work in Japan specializing in the anthropology of sports.

She was really excited to see someone doing something on the internet, and lent me a book someone had written about a MUD.

Also, I would have said more about Phil, but I have to try really hard not to let myself go off on tangents. If I'd allowed myself to go into more detail about Phil, I'd have started in on all sorts of stuff that, while interesting to me and probably my teacher, would take away from the focus of the paper.

I am glad people have read it, though. It's good to have feedback. After all, you guys are here, too. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kai@rpgww60462>Kai</A]&nbsp; Image at: 5/1/06 1:24

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status: read comments before essay

Unread postby pd Rydia » Mon May 01, 2006 10:45 am

You should write this tangents anyway, and post them here!

I think we'd find them interesting. <p>
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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby pd Rydia » Mon May 01, 2006 11:55 am

<small><ul>The setting was named “Gaera” and given a geography, history, population, and religion.</ul>I don’t remember if Gaera was named first, if I drew the map of eastern Igala (during Chemistry class—Ideal GAs LAw). I still have the second map, although the first doodle got smudged all to hell and back in my notes. The scans are on the site.<ul>The forum has members in America, Canada, Great Britain, and even countries so distant as Malta, South Africa, and New Zealand.</ul>Malta isn’t so much further than the U.K. We’ve had Australians before, though, a Chilean, and a Mexican, that I remember offhand.<ul>Visitors to the forum who do not use proper punctuation, who misspell words or abbreviate them down to a letter or two (such as “o mygod u r kewl”) are often viciously mocked and then eventually ignored.</ul>The vehemence of this reaction has been waning over time in the group as a whole, although a number of members have never let slip their vigilance. Certain shorthand got picked up from memes and flashes—at first sarcastically, then more casually—and it sort of got out of hand. I remember past discussions in chat about hypocrisy, and personally, I just kinda got tired of being an ass.<ul>There are informal authorities on Gaeran canon, but the Gaera Guide was created in order to allow for more equal access to information about the setting.</ul>The GG was also created to get all the early Gaeran canon authorities on a similar track, so that we didn’t wind up with a landlocked Doma bordered by the sea.<ul>Levels of participation on the forum are, in some vague order, occasional chat-room participant, forum poster,</ul>I think the lowest level of participation in RPGWW is the person who neither RPs nor posts on the board, but still shows up in chat. There’s also the occasional poster or the occasional chatter; then there’s someone who either posts a lot or chats a lot, but doesn’t RP. Next would be one who does a fair amount of both chatting and posting. An active chatroom RPer would be better known than an active board RPer. GMs are also ranked according to how much socialization they do outside of GMing.<ul>Gamemasters run the plots. They create a story and play most of the minor characters, including the antagonist if there is one.</ul>Also responsible for making their games -fun-, and inventing new ways of doing things (falling traps onoes!) Also, more implicitly, there’s an amount of sacrifice involved, given that you can’t GM and RP at the same time.<ul>Also, while a gamemaster here can do her job elsewhere, knowledge of the Gaeran setting is often a large part of her qualification (as is familiarity with Philsys).</ul> A RPGWW GM can take her experience and knowledge from GMing at RPGWW elsewhere, even borrow elements from Gaera to new places, but I imagine that if the whole setting were ganked, some folks would be mighty irked.<ul>Those who do not fit are somehow worse than outsiders because they should be members, but instead are imposters.</ul>It comes to mind the chatter who neither RPs nor posts, nor shows interest in doing either. That was also a personal pet peeve of mine, for whatever reason. Elemaer doesn’t bother me, any more than AM making a continent on Gaera to be solo GMed so he could fuck it up as he saw fit; I remember DF bothering me back in the day, though. I imagine it’s a personal like or dislike of the idea, reaction to the RPers involved, and tact/lack thereof.</small>

Anyhow, neat read. Think you might put a copy of it up on the Wiki? <p>
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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon May 01, 2006 12:32 pm

It's actually interesting that you bring up Ka'thalar in that context since Idran and I had a very interesting (and lengthy) conversation last night about communal RP settings and my feelings on them.

For those who know what I'm talking about, I realized after a relatively short time that Ka'thalar was never going to be anywhere near as interesting as the rest of Gaera, Igala in particular, if I gripped it with a literary stranglehold. It ultimately upsets me a little because I feel that not only have I done so poorly with the continent but because no one seems to care about it ICly; this has changed over time to a certain extent with the introduction of a few characters that hail from the area and with my last D&D campaign, but I digress. <p>
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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Idran1701 » Mon May 01, 2006 2:34 pm

And personally, just to get my feelings out there for purposes of debate, my own position is that settings do not necessarily have to be communal to be enjoyable, nor does making a setting communal necessarily improve it.

Edit: Also, though I already commented to Kai on IM, I thought it was quite well-written. I know nothing on the topic, but I was able to understand the paper quite well. <p>

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</p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=idran1701>Idran1701</A] at: 5/1/06 14:35

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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Ganonfro » Mon May 01, 2006 7:06 pm

...Is page 6, line 8 supposed to say "Goblin chefs"? As in Goblins who are culinary experts? Sorry, I'm just curious since I wasn't aware people discussed about goblins eating habits, instead of goblin chiefs... >_>;;


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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Besyanteo » Mon May 01, 2006 7:09 pm

The Jade Dragon's cooking staff was comprised almost entirely of Goblins. Therefore discussion of goblin chefs and their profession is perfectly legitamate conversation. =D <p>
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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Ganonfro » Mon May 01, 2006 7:15 pm

*Latches onto Bes's head in thanks*

AND KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE!


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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby KingOfDoma » Mon May 01, 2006 7:21 pm

I've never encountered a goblin chief while in Gaera.

However, whenever one of my characters goes to the Jade Dragon, a goblin chef cooks them up a wonderful meal. <p>

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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Capntastic » Mon May 01, 2006 8:47 pm

I'm fairly sure the goblin chefs thing is written exactly as it is meant to be.


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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Ganonfro » Mon May 01, 2006 10:02 pm

Yes yes, I realize this now. Thus is what happens when I don't RP at all here.


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Re: Welcome to my suicide

Unread postby Kai » Fri May 05, 2006 1:52 pm

Quote:
my own position is that settings do not necessarily have to be communal to be enjoyable, nor does making a setting communal necessarily improve it.

I don't that there's any way to say whether one creative product is objectively "better" than another, but having the setting communal improves the experience for me. There's a definite sense of connection between my own efforts and the efforts of other people.

For the sake of argument, I think that a communal setting can be more plausible than a whole setting created by one person. I mean, it's definitely possible for one person to create a diverse setting, as evidenced by nearly all fantasy novels. Yet, I do think that having different people contributing different ideas lends itself more easily to setting diversity.

Look at the real world (because I believe in discussions of believablity that we should do so). France and Korea are very different places because different people have had different experiences there. If our world were a setting created by one person, I'd guess the two nations wouldn't be nearly as different as they actually are. Having a setting created by one person often works just fine, but all too often you get Star Trek-eque monolithic cultures that are generally only distinguishable from one another by a few facial prosthetics. <p>-------------------------
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." -- Sandman "The Kindly Ones" </p>


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