I fought back tears reading this.

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Archmage144
 

I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:27 pm

The article. <p>
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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby Shinigori V2 » Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:47 pm

Wow.


....Wow. <p>
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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby Capntastic » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:58 pm

I actually had to lie down when I read that a few days ago.

The world is a real bad place sometimes.


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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby BrainWalker » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:24 am

11... my God. I don't think I can even process that right now. For a mere child to take such action...

... *shudder*

I think I'll just go distract myself now. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

Archmage144
 

Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:42 am

Honestly, while I find the fact that she committed suicide to be incredibly tragic, it's not the fact that she killed herself so much as the things that happened to drive an 11-year-old girl to think life was no longer worth living. 11-year-olds are generally pretty energetic, cheerful, optimistic types.

And I cannot express the rage I felt at the idea of bullies that would steal a puppy from a little girl. I was so horrified at the idea that I have difficulty describing it. <p>
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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby E Mouse » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:19 am

Would it go without saying that these bullies were probably male?

And on that note, is it really surprising that sometimes I really hate myself? <p>


<span style="font-size:xx-small;">"Their rhetoric... You didn't put communists in his bed did you!" came Amber's indignant reply.

"Why not? All I had to do was open a gate to his bed and stick up a sign saying 'Hot virgin willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of international socialist fraternity.'"</span>

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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:34 am

I echo the sentiments of Brian with regard to the puppy-stealing. I mean, 'holy shit' doesn't even come close. You can't see 'holy shit' from there, it's just too far.

I can see asshole juveniles stealing as a way to be cruel or rebellious or whatever. But stealing a puppy? From a GIRL? Whose father was *arrested*?? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby pd Rydia » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:26 am

Bullying, lols.

At the risk of being found a cold-hearted bastard, I'll admit to not being too hard-hit by this article. The thing for me is...well, knowing how many children are close to this. How many have survived past this due to little more than circumstance. I guess, you get used to the idea after a while. At least I have.

I'm wary of how much attention the article pays to the triggering events--the puppy theft and the incident with the father. I realize that it's important to report--I mean, they shouldn't have happened--but the bullying situation seems to be downplayed as a whole, which disappoints me. I've little doubt that's where the real problem was.


I mean, shit. I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum who was bullied every day from the time memory starts, up through some time past elementary school. It's torture--I'll turn 23 in a month, and I still cry today from what I went through. Of course, it's still more than half of my life that I went through that. You learn important lessons from that kind of world, like "A good day is a day that no one makes me cry"--even though that never actually happens--and that a good person is someone who doesn't hate you. It doesn't even stop when you're alone--you can't always sit alone in the lunchroom, classmates harass you at recess, neighbors hunt you down when you're playing outside. For that matter, I didn't stop waking up from nightmares every morning, eyes crusty and lungs heavy from crying in my sleep, sometime when I was 11 or so.

Adults--parents, neighbors, teachers--authority who claim to have your best interests at heart, just turn a blind eye to it all. Or tell you you're lying. Or contribute to it. And that's life.

Of course you want it to end. Suicide is naturally one of the options that comes to mind. Especially as the "you're bad", "you're worthless" messages keep piling up. It comes down to a matter of the right--rather, wrong--triggering event or series of events at the wrong time, to give impetus and energy to follow through on plans.


*shakes head* What really makes me sad is that this shouldn't be news to any of you. This is and has been happening all around you. <p>
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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby Archmage144 » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:20 am

Is it news? No. Is it still sad? Absolutely. I endured a lot of various things as a child, but never quite to that magnitude, and I'll admit that I had the same kinds of desires. But for a girl to actually take her own life at 11? That's a real shock to most of society, especially considering our preoccupation that our kids will be alright as long as no adults ruin their lives (candy-proffering kidnappers, for example). We forget so easily that most of the psychological damage done to children is done by children, though in this article at least some of it is done by "the state."

I hadn't really intended to provoke a debate with this, I just thought it was worthy of being shared, because not everyone remembers the way you do, Dia, even if we suffered as children--and no one should ever forget, not completely. Get over it? Sure. Endure it? Absolutely. Move on and become productive members of society? Yes, please. But never forget. This is the real plague of our country and others, not terrorism, not oil shortages, not abortion, not teen pregnancy, not AIDS. And half of these things are symptoms of the way the youth of this country are raised, anyway.

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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:30 pm

Sort of reminds me of that whole Columbine bullshit. I will never, ever forget that in Time Magazine, they had brief quotes from classmates of the attackers and attackees. They had a couple that were juxtaposed with pictures of guys who were clearly jocks, who still, even after the blood had been spilled, after the extreme cathartic massacre had ended, were calling Harris and Klebold 'fags.'

Nobody seemed to pick up on this shit. Not a damned person. They were all up in arms about DOOM and Marilyn Manson and stupid shit like that. What the fuck? When people hit age 30 do they just forget what high school was like? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby FlamingDeth » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:42 pm

I suppose that this is just further proof that humanity is retarded. Those aliens or robots or whatever need to get their acts together and wipe us out already. <p>
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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby Kai » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:46 pm

I just like that after Columbine, the only reason teachers/admininstrators took an interest in bullying was that they didn't want to be held accountable for the consequences. The students still weren't important and, let's be realistic, they never will be.

Part of the social purpose of junior high/high school is to teach you that people are different and kids need to deal with that. Not everyone is your friend like they teach in kindergarten. Not everyone cares about you, not everyone wants to help you, and some people will actively try to hurt you because, odds are, someone hurt them first.

It's not fair. Sure. But it's going to happen whether the results horrify our collective conscience or not. We can be as offended as we like, and I for one am. But I'm not going to pretend that my feelings will change anything for kids who are still suffering now, because it's damn-near unpreventable in a grand social sense. The junior-high proles will always exist, and the Powers That Be (as well as the nation at large) will never be any more concerned with them than the bullies.

Meh. End rant and rambling and whatnot. <p>-------------------------
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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby Choark » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:31 pm

Honestly I'm more shocked that this kinda news seems to new to everyone.

Worst bullying issue from my own town was a couple of kids (11 and 13) were run down to the lake by a 'gang' of varying ages, made the kids stripe down and go into the lake. As well as cutting there feet on the glass in the lake they got caught in the weeds as they were made to swim and drowned.

I've also been beaten by bats and such like to the point of being in hospital and am rather lucky to be here today. Bullying. And honestly it actually used to be worse 50 years ago. So yeah...

Wheeeee! <- sarcasum wheee.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=choark>Choark</A]&nbsp; Image at: 10/10/05 17:19

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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby BrainWalker » Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:12 pm

Okay, I figured this would come up. I'm really not sure how the fact that such things are prevalent makes them any less tragic. I daresay the fact that we can even have a discussion on matters like this that goes from "This is sick" to "Yea, but, really, it's nothing new." makes things more tragic. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=brainwalker>BrainWalker</A]&nbsp; Image at: 10/10/05 17:12

Choark
 

The sorry and defensive reply

Unread postby Choark » Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:36 pm

I agree BW...

I was going to comment on the article but saying "Thats sad" seems to ...something... it more then anything, so I joined in what I could. I was honestly surprised that this one story be held in more horror then all the other ones out there. Guess that means I'm a hard cold bastard. Actually it does mean it when I think about it. But sorry. Pointing out similar stories is kinda cold to the whole thing.

Afraid stories like this kinda just bounce off me now. It'd have to be personal for me to be affected these days... which again is a bad sign of how things are.


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Re: The sorry and defensive reply

Unread postby Wolfbelly » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:24 pm

I, like Dia, am pretty unaffected by this. It's a shame and all, but so's genocide, suicide bombings of schools, and all sorts of other shit that we gloss over every day. This particular tale stands out a bit more because it hits closer to home, but it's still one of a number of things that happens in the world we live in. And sure, you can feel bad and sad and mad about it as much as you want, but ask yourself this ... how many people are you going to make feel better by feeling bad/sad/mad?

Outrage is pointless, methinks. <p>Image</p>

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Re: The sorry and defensive reply

Unread postby Besyanteo » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:36 pm

I was wondering when you would show up!

... But I can actually grab onto this one. It's hard to empathize with this when I know an ocean away, in Israel, there's people blowing up half a dozen other children in public restaurants.

Yeah, people suck. All of them. That's reality baby. <p>
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Re: The sorry and defensive reply

Unread postby Nakibe » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:38 pm

I felt remorse and regret myself when reading this story, sure. But not shock. This coming from a guy whose first two thoughts immediately following hearing the Columbine shootings (since I was in HS at the time) were "What, this hasn't happened before?" and "Hmm, odd that I didn't think of that..."

The whole bullying thing is something that it seems that older people (and perhaps older Americans especially) completely discard as if it never happened. It was funny as hell to me that the blame IMMEDIATELY after Columbine fell on First Person Shooters and Music, with so little emphasis on the Bullying. As if, yeah, they were bullied, but THAT'S NOT ENOUGH to make them want to kill people.

But veering back on topic... yeah, this shit is pretty sad indeed. Although I STILL don't get why no one did anything when the bullies took her kitten away.




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Re: The sorry and defensive reply

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:06 am

Seriously. The puppy incident is far more 'wtf' to me than the suicide. <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: The sorry and defensive reply

Unread postby pd Rydia » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:27 pm

"Part of the social purpose of junior high/high school is to teach you that people are different and kids need to deal with that."


That's /all/ of school, from K on up. Hell, there's a large amount of it in preSchool/Daycare. School is kind of a place to train people into their place in the social ladder--who bullies, who gets bullied. Who gets help from the system, who doesn't. Who gets off the hook, who gets attention, who gets the beat down...etc., etc. <p>
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Re: The sorry and defensive reply

Unread postby Celeste of Elvenhame » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:54 pm

going to have to agree with Dia, being subjected to the same sorts of things she speaks of.

Though I still find it sad that this happened because obviously she had to have issues before she was pushed over the edge. And those were clearly ignored or abuse was heaped on. My parents always added to the issues by being part of the emotional/intellectual/etc abuse. I only hope I can prevent some of this sort of sort of suffering from happening to my child(ren). The trick will be striking a balance between what s/he has to deal with on his or her own and when one should step in.

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REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL

Unread postby Reako Somner » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:39 pm

Oh snap, this entire post is filled with... uhm... stuff that has nothing to do with the topic. Well maybe it does. I just started typing and ranting then decided to stop eventually. Read it if you want, I guess!

I've gotten picked on alot throughout my entire life, leading me to a condition of paranoia in other people, a sense of "uncoolness" that never goes away, that I'm just a nuisance, an annoying bother. I know it's not true, to some extent, but it doesn't go away.

I recieved far more verbal abuse than physical. Rarely was I ever hit or beaten or physically poked at. Naw, kids found it funnier to poke fun at my refusal to swear, my lack of interest in porn (sometimes shoving it in my face on the bus), and the overall weirdness of the way I move around (apparently I walk like a duck) It began to decline as I never exploded, merely giving them a warning of some kind, and then following through if they didn't listen, like some sort of strict machine. (A kid who wore an expensive brand of glasses wouldn't stop bothering me with sexual vulgarity, thus, after my warning, I calmly snatched them from his face, snapped them over my knee, and tossed them in the garbage) I've broken alot of property, getting in trouble for it obviously, but the message came across. Being somewhat poor, I had no property for them to damage in return, and always hovered near teachers like a dog.

Ahhh, the villians of my past. It was never some musclebound jock hrhring and punchpunching, instead it was cold, possibly psychotic scrawny lads who built a ring of followers around them with thier obvious cruel wit. The first was Patrick Lamden, First Grade to Fourth Grade I was his target, his scratching post. The kid recieved trop grades around everyone in his class, becoming an honor student as I did (until Attention Deficit struck me hard into the long slump to come) he was always the teacher's pet, the little angel, he could do no wrong. Out of the vision of adults he was a dark, calculating monster. If he didn't like you, for whatever reason, the goal was not to hurt you, but to RUIN you. Find what insults sting the most, what to do to get you on the school's bad side, what buttons to press. He never smiled, he only had this look of evil and dread. I dunno where he is today, as I moved out of Texas with my family in the middle of 4th grade.

The next one is some guy I don't remember in early Middle School. What I do remember is that he was a violent smartass who always got his way, one way or another. He gained membership for his little cult following with bribes and false kindness.. once a person's usefulness was run through, they would be "disposed of" in a week's worth of planned humiliation. At the time, my grades were pretty good and, I dunno, he approached me with the same tendancies I'd seen him use on others, and I laughed and declined, as I was a loner and flatly said I don't trust the way he acts. I was the target of him and his growing gang of "friends" and connections for 2 years, but I never gave him the pleasure of exploding in emotion, and he frustratingly gave up. It didn't end completely until he moved away, but then came...

The only kid who ever took a physical shot at me was Michael Leer, a criminally inclined kid who'd already been punished for killing two pet animals around the mobile home park before. He came to dispise me for reasons unknown, once again some marked target. Since I was a rather charismatic snitch, he didn't come for me til the last day of school. I exploded, for the first time, at one of his lackies instead. Scuffling with him, I recieved a black eye. It's likely good I did, because I was later told Mike had a combat knife he stole from his father's dresser, and intended to use it after goading me into "one free punch". What would drive a 15 year old to be like this I wouldn't know. For once, I was honestly considering killing him, looking around the surroundings, all the easy ways I could do it, something in me just snapped. "That cinderblock on the porch, he doesn't see me as dangerous... I could walk behind him and bash his head in, he wouldn't make a sound, smashed skull and all... no one in the neighborhood really liked him, no one would be sorry to see him go. My BB gun has sights.. I know his way home, maybe I could snipe him in the eye... that'd be awesome." I scared myself with these thoughts and vowed to stop them. In time Mike was arrested by the police for something I never managed to hear, and whatever happened to him there caused him to stop attacking others after he was released.

I think it's a good thing I had ADHD and a hardcore addiction to videogames, because it sure let me blow off alot of life's problems, homework included, unfortunately.

I think I'm gonna call this post REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL and put a POSSIBLY SEVERELY OFF TOPIC tag on it. I ranted about alot of personal issues! Woot! Meh, they're in the past, and those demons are gone, so it's all good. I think all that severe anger management I taught myself was probably good too. I rarely get upset these days unless something is really irking me... *shrug*


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Re: REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL

Unread postby BrainWalker » Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:12 pm

Holy shit, that is the longest post I have ever seen from Reako.

I would suggest that it is acutely on topic, actually, as it illustrates in grizly detail the point that the "normal" part of everyday life that is bullying can eventually lead even the gentlest of souls to seriously contemplate unspeakable acts. I don't know why some people can't grasp that concept.

I find grim irony (and amusement) in the concept of videogames having a hand in actually stopping someone from committing acts of severe violence. Also, that thing with the glasses? Damn. That was awesome. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

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Re: REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL

Unread postby E Mouse » Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:28 pm

If Reako and Excal are the left and right arms of Voltron, I must be the shins.

:( <p>


<span style="font-size:xx-small;">"Their rhetoric... You didn't put communists in his bed did you!" came Amber's indignant reply.

"Why not? All I had to do was open a gate to his bed and stick up a sign saying 'Hot virgin willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of international socialist fraternity.'"</span>

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Re: REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL

Unread postby pd Rydia » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:26 pm

What BW said. <p>
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Re: REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL

Unread postby Nakibe » Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:00 pm

Like BW said, Reako. Your post is AMAZINGLY ON-topic and stuff. I'm not surprised that people forget about this sort of thing from school, after all. Traumatic experiences tend to be shoved to the back of the mind and never thought about again if possible.

As for the videogames thing? It doesn't amuse me because I honestly feel the same way. Getting into fighting games has given me a place to channel my agressive feelings so that I don't have the urge to punch people in the face nearly as often. This is also probably why I automatically get a little pissed when people talk about how terrible violent videogaming is, and that it "Ruins" our children.

I'm slightly less "ruined" than I would be had I decided to fight the whole school one way or another, if you ask me.


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Re: REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL

Unread postby pd Rydia » Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:45 pm

Video games: escapism or scapegoat? You decide!


To be fair, it's not to say that there aren't some out there who would be better off without the influence of certain games; I'm reminded of one of Mike's sisters, who I'm told can have some difficulty differentiating between history and historical fiction (something I can wholly believe). Needless to say, that's exception rather than the rule--unless everyone else I've met has been entirely exceptional. >_> <p>
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Re: REAKO'S ANGSTY LIVEJOURNAL

Unread postby BrainWalker » Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:36 pm

For the record, I found it amusing because it refutes the beliefs of people I hold in contempt, not because I find the concept laughable.

It's not that media has no effect, it's just that the effect of media is vastly disproportionate to the effect of real life. <p><div style="text-align:center">Image</div></p>

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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:20 am

Now, here's the next step. How do we keep this shit from happening in the future? We can already know that we need to do something ourselves instead of shunting the blame to some sort of company or some shit like that. So what can we do?

I've already been up and down the path of personally observing schooltime activities incognito or otherwise hidden from view and identification. When I first formulated the idea, I thought, Hey, I can just let the faculty know what is REALLY going on out there, and they can deal with it, right?

Problem is, how will said faculty deal with it? And is it the best way? Again we reach the problem that we simply cannot leave anything in this equation unaccountedfor. We need to have a complete plan.

Bullies, as the term goes, are the prime candidate for this-situation-needs-fixed. But how does one get a bully to stop bullying? The initial idea of bullying them as well to show them that bullying is asinine really won't do the trick, considering a lot of bullies bully because they feel powerless in non-school environments, and exercise this inferiority complex by dominating the schoolyard. So what? Counseling? Martial arts immediately pops to mind as a good way to redirect that energy while teaching discipline and focus, but I am uncertain that children of grade-school age are tremendously able to grasp the concept of responsibility and discipline at all.

Suggestions? <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>

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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby CronoLuminaire » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:03 pm

So many things to address, grah, how do you all focus so well? Sorry if this is a bit on the longish side, and also if I have not expressed my thoughts clearly enough.

Priam:
Firstly, your idea to monitor the activities of the students is likely to meet with opposition, because it won't just be the students who have to be monitored. Faculty and students alike will have to be watched. That might not sit well with parents and the faculty itself. A reason for this opposition may well be wrongdoing on the part of members of the faculty itself. But that is the kind of thing we are trying to stop, right? Well, even for those "who have nothing to hide," the cameras will likely cause stress. And if the cameras are hidden, and their existence is a secret from anyone, that will bring legal wrath from whoever is kept in the dark.

This does not even address the issue of whether this will work, or what needs to be done to make it work. The problem is, monitoring the classrooms is not enough, as much of the bullying goes on in the other places. This of course means the halls and stairways, cafeteria and so on. But what about faculty offices, this is not limited to teachers and administrators (such as the principal/headmaster) but also may well include counselors, whose sessions are supposed to be confidential. This is not end either, as if the question of confidentiality with counselors were not enough of a legal wrath incurring issue, I give you an even worse quagmire: the restrooms and locker rooms. These locations are where people take care of some private business, but it is also a place where perhaps some of the worst bullying can go on. They are by their nature closed off from view, and do not tend to have any supervision, at least in the case of the restrooms. This is an environment very conducive to bullying, but because of the nakedness involved, cameras are likely out of the question. But if there is even one blind spot, it will be found and exploited soon enough.

As for a suggestion, what about cutting down on the amount of time students of varying grades are in contact? The bullies are generally older and the bullied are younger to further emphasize whatever advantage the bully may have (size, strength, gathered entourage). Although this will not eliminate bullies in the same grade, it could be a start. Of course, there are bound to be problems with this idea as well, so I throw it off to you, next poster.

I also wanted to respond to Reako, but this post is long enough I think.


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PriamNevhausten
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Re: I fought back tears reading this.

Unread postby PriamNevhausten » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:30 pm

Hahaha. You said 'camera.' <p><span style="font-size:xx-small;">"It's in the air, in the headlines in the newspapers, in the blurry images on television. It is a secret you have yet to grasp, although the first syllable has been spoken in a dream you cannot quite recall." --Unknown Armies</span></p>


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