RPGWW

We discussed this in class today.

A capitan on a sub, has to make a discision, Let 20 men die, or kill 15 and let 5 live.

Dont worry about the situation. Should a commanding officer be able to make that decision, and would he be justified in sacrificing his own men, to save a few?

Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? Fames on how im gh3y? <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
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Homogay.

Also, I'm assuming that you mean he has to actively kill those fifteen, not just let them die, for it to count? <p>

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I am an <s>arrogant</s> elitist bastard.

And now, since I want to be unique like everybody else, quotes:
"People don't seem to realize, it wasn't a powerful ass poke. It was a powerful poke, to the ass!" ~ Lord McBastard
"So what you're saying is that Nintendo and Sony are in league with each other, and possibly the Red Skull?" ~ EKDS5K

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. .no.

He should try to save all if he can. No one can sacrifice another person for any reason!

Dude if someone dose that they are just asking for some Karmic revenge of the biggest caliber.
<p>"Seek out a Kingdom worthy of your soul."

Reign the conquer.</p>

Sorry, but I can't make a call like this unless I'm in that situation, I say. Thus, I never try to in theory. <p>

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English does not have a word for what you do to do a dead thing to make it stop chasing you. Clearly, you cannot kill that which is dead. But until Mr. Webster comes up with replacement, we are forced to render dead that which is dead. - Just Call Me Fed


The man wants a new pair of pants. What's wrong with that? - Crawling Reshiki</p>

Logically, killing 15 so the other 5 could live is best.

Actually being able to perform the task is another thing.

I find to hard to assume that sort of postion would ever come up and I doubt anyone could ever convince me I had to kill 15 men to save 5. I would have to explore all the alternatives and try them out and for them all to fail for me to consider it.

However, yes, I'd kill 15 to save 5 if it definatly had to come to it - even if I was one of the 15. If I'd personally be able to do it at the time really depends and can't comment.

Actually, all 15 men where trapped in a sub, And couldent get rescued for a week, and they only had air for two days if the 20 men tried to live, hence: they all would have died had the capitan tried to save them all.

He gave them cyanide to drink in their beverages.

Logically, it IS better to save 5, then loose all 20. And it was based on a true story.

The 5 men I would select would be from balanced categories of people--someone mechanical, someone strong, someone with a general sense of intelligence, someone with a good sense of direction, someone creative...something like that, perhaps, based on what I knew of them. The rest of them would have to die--they knew they were risking their lives when they signed up for the military, so this isn't a terrible, unjust thing to do.

If you can't save everyone, save whoever you can. It's silly to do otherwise. <p>

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I would assume that the military follows a utilitarian code of ethics, where the least damaging option is the best option. If I were the captain, I'd draw lots. 5 lucky guys get to live, if one of them doesn't want to then the remaining 15 draw lots to see who lives. Afterwards, it's suicide time, baby!

Only ONE thing wrong with drawing lots.

SoilderA: ... I got the short straw....
SoilderB: I Didnt. ^_______^
SoilderA: *KILL*
SoilderB: *DED

Rest of crew: *Mass melee*


And the capitan chose the five married men. Let all the single men Die. <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">And the capitan chose the five married men. Let all the single men Die. [/quote]

That's a bit rough. That's kind of like saying that single people have less to live for, and less people would worry about their deaths. But what if those married people were shunned by the rest of society while any one of the singles had a large, loving family, and many friends?

It's all a very subjective situation, but I would have gone the random cyanide in the beverages, myself. The next question, of course would be - would you rig it so you yourself couldn't die, or just take the luck of the draw? <p>-----------------------------------------------------
"To fall, to fall... Glorious!"</p>

As the captain, I'd slip the cianide to everyone's drinks, and then promptly go insane so that the following days of necrophilia and cannibalism seem justified.

While it's insanely difficult to actually apply logic and numbers to human life in practice, it's really easy to do so on paper. While I agree with AM in theory, I don't know if I'd actually be able to do something like that. I'd sooner kill myself than choose 15 other people who had to die.

Also, while I agree the "let the married men live" ideaology is a bit rough, that's the sort of thing I'd use in my justification rather than techical merits. I'd take in stuff like age, health, and family into consideration before "skill". General nebulous "quality of life" stuff, moreso than "how useful are you to me?". Then agian, that would make things infinitely more difficult...

Then on top of that, there's always the topic of volunteerism. Do you tell your crew that 15 of them are going to die, or do you just slip your chosen majority the cyanide and pray for forgiveness? Do you let the men decide which of them is going to be sacrificed for the greater good, or just take matters into your own hands? Ideally, the entire crew would discuss the issue, but "most of us are gonna die" isn't exactly the best fodder for calm, rational discussion. There's really no easy answer.

I kinda went off topic there...

But yea, 15 dead guys is definately preferable to 20 dead guys. No matter how you look at it. But, it shouldn't be an acceptible practice just 'cause he's high-ranking... it should be a last-ditch "we've exhausted all other options" decision which really shouldn't be made by just one person.

Also, I'm going to pretend that Wolfbelly doesn't exist. <p><div style="text-align:center"></div></p>Edited by: [url=http://pub30.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=brainwalker>BrainWalker</A]&nbsp; at: 10/5/03 5:23 pm

You and what army!

For the drawing lots part:

You put the poison in 15 out of 20 drinks, mix them up with your eyes closed, get the crew together and tell them you're going to have one last drink. It save the confusion for until after the people who aren't gonna live are dead. <p>

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English does not have a word for what you do to do a dead thing to make it stop chasing you. Clearly, you cannot kill that which is dead. But until Mr. Webster comes up with replacement, we are forced to render dead that which is dead. - Just Call Me Fed


The man wants a new pair of pants. What's wrong with that? - Crawling Reshiki</p>

No, it's not justified. Soldiers are supposed to trust their superiors, but it's also supposed to go the other way around. You tell them the situation. And either A) 15 people volunteer to die to save the rest, or B) you all go down together. The end.

~Hatsuma!

Why? What sense does that make? No possible good comes from your scenario, if no one volunteers. Everyone just dies, which is obviously worse than not everyone dying.

You're looking at it wrong. We're not "killing 15 to save 5." We're saving 5. That's it. Everyone on the sub is dead if nothing is done, it doesn't matter how. If someone is shot in the head, suffocates, drowns, dies from cyanide, it doesn't matter. Dead is dead, regardless of the mechanics behind it. The 15 men who weren't selected to live are dead no matter what happens, there's no arguing that point, unfortunately. Whether they go willingly, or unknowingly, or the captain has to shoot them himself because he can't get a drink anywhere near them, it doesn't matter, because they will die anyway, either when the captain does it, or in 3 days, when the air runs out.

So yeah, it's justified.

Agian with the random Drawing lots bit.

If the Capitan doesnt tell anyone whats going on, and he gets a cyanide drink, NOW whos in charge? Now what do we do? Why the fuck did everyone all of a sudden die? Whats next? <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

The more interesting question to my mind is whether the captain ought to be one of those to survive, in order to lead the other surviving four, to face the justice of his country and explain to the friends and relations of the men he killed, or whether he ought to kill himself as the last of the fifteen.

Here's another interesting thought.

Suppose fifteen of these men are model citizens, deeply religious, and well on their way to a pleasant afterlife by the standards of the captain, while the other five are no-good dirty scoundrels.

Who should live?

-White Knight <p>

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Behold! Sig figs!</p>

More Detail: Before The capitan killed himself, he radioed in to his superior and told them that it was he, and he alone that acted in the killings of his 15 men. Then he drank some himself. So no use speculating about weather or not he SHOULD have done what he did, and more on weather or not you think WHAT he did is justified.

We have gotten off topic here people. Im glad for your input, but no more what He should have dones. He had no regrets.

Also, you dont have to reply anymore. I got what I needed, and I thank you all for it. <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

You know, part of evaluating whether an action is justified is considering possible alternatives.

Just a thought.

-White Knight <p>

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Behold! Sig figs!</p>

There is only one other option we have found that is really the only answer.

Kill them off one by one, day after day, using only the amount needed to fuel the crew, and kill them off as there is longer enough air to support them.

All other ways are based on Moral opinoins and in War, really, there is no room for morality. Face it people, you know damned well that when you join the Millitary, theres a risk that you might die. They have Capitains for a reason, and I believe he WAS Justified. As morbid as it sounds, war is a game based on numbers. Who ever has the MOST best trained, best equiped soilders will win the "War". Soilders are a statistic. A statistic with a face, but a statistic. <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

You know, not to go offtopic or anything, Dalin, but you're a real topic nazi. <p>

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You mean Capitalistic Nazi! :D! <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

No, I'm fairly certain he means topic nazi. <p>

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I am an <s>arrogant</s> elitist bastard.

And now, since I want to be unique like everybody else, quotes:
"People don't seem to realize, it wasn't a powerful ass poke. It was a powerful poke, to the ass!" ~ Lord McBastard
"So what you're saying is that Nintendo and Sony are in league with each other, and possibly the Red Skull?" ~ EKDS5K

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I havent been here in GOD knows how long, post my opinions in like THREE topics, and Im a Nazi now? <p>------------------
"There is nothin' as sure in the world as the glitter of gold and the treachery of Elves."
- Old Dwarf Saying
</p>

Looks like. <p>

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"Carrying a ham into a room, Mr. Connery says, 'hon mono.' It basically means that the ham he carries is genuine or real. We expect nothing less."</p>

NO TOPIC FOR YOU!!!

Could also be the insistance on sticking STRICKLY ON TOPIC OMFG OMFG under penalty of being looked at funny. <p>

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I am an <s>arrogant</s> elitist bastard.

And now, since I want to be unique like everybody else, quotes:
"People don't seem to realize, it wasn't a powerful ass poke. It was a powerful poke, to the ass!" ~ Lord McBastard
"So what you're saying is that Nintendo and Sony are in league with each other, and possibly the Red Skull?" ~ EKDS5K

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