Seiken Densetsu

[Ganonfro]

If you are here, you know that the series is either horribly awesome, or you don't know what the hell this title is and came in anyways. Either way, lucky you! :D

Seeing how Children of Mana came out, I would like to inquire which of the series is your favourite, and why. If that is too hard to ask, then bugger off. Seriously.

Aaaaaand.... Go.

[Capntastic]

I like Saga Frontier; aren't they related?

[Choark]

Secret of Mana, which I guess if you want to go by the japanese title is the second of the series, was techically one of my first RPG's ever, even if I didn't think of them as RPGs back then. It was the first game I ever bothered to get everything to its highest level, for fun and profit and holding down the attack button for a stupid long time.

This one probably wins by default as its the only one I ever completed.

Unless you count Mystic Quest (also known as Final Fantasy Adventure elsewhere) for the Gameboy, which is some sort of weird hybrid of the Secret of series and the Final Fantasy series.

Hey they remade that as Sword of Mana or something for the GBA didn't they. Ah that was fun too. Never completed it though. I got as far as some ice caverns? Maybe further... I remember killing this guy at the top of some castle... Anyway I'm completely lost, and can't be bothered finding out where the hell to go. But I had fun with that, and you could play a girl in it too.

... Favorite.

... None really. I want that 3D one for the PS2 though, if its even out yet. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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[Idran1701]

Huh, FF Adventure was called FF Mystic Quest in the UK? Weird. Then what was the game they called FF Mystic Quest here called? The SNES one that was released around the same time as FF4, I mean. <p><hr />
"Never let your morals get in the way of doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
</p>

[Choark]

Actually it was just called Mystic Quest on the GB.

The one for the snes, which I did have until someone sold all my snes games for drug money, was called Mystic Quest Legend, or something very similar to that. It may have even been Super Mystic Quest but I leaning towards Mystic Quest ____ something.

I had no idea it was connected to any other series until later in life when I got Final Fantasy 7 and heard Chocobo's appear in all of the FF games: I was quite surprised when I looked back at those two games and remember there appearance. Admittidly in Mystic Quest Legend it was just as a weather cockral thing but it was still there. no final fantasy name was mentioned in the UK. Probably because we never saw hide nor hair of it until FF7.

Bastards. <p><div style="text-align:center"> </div>
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[Spleen]

Despite being a huge fan of the series, I've only ever played Secret of Mana and Seiken Densetsu III (sometimes called Secret of Mana 2, and never released outside of Japan), possibly due to not having a PSanything.

I like the combat system better in Secret of Mana, except when you hit an enemy with a fully-charged super attack right after your ally hits them with a normal attack and the game forgets to count your attack. Also, the fact that magic spamming works so well that boss fights are almost impossible to lose makes me go :(. Having ranged weapons is cool, and hitting an enemy with the attack you've been charging for twenty seconds and having it actually work properly is one of the greatest feelings in gaming.

Seiken Densetsu III has an awesome story, and I like that you get to customize your party. Super attacks are much, much easier to use, as well, and yet still kick 135807135 kinds of ass. Also, it has the advantage of not having Popoie (the Sprite), who's a tool (you can ask Idran if you don't believe me).

Idran and I are actually in the middle of a Secret of Mana savefile (we saved right after we got Sylphid). I hope we can play again soon. <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

"There are four types of men: one who says what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours - he is a neutral person. One who says what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine is a fool. One who says what's mine is yours and what's yours is yours is righteous. One who says what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine is evil."
-Talmud, Avot 5:13

Arch mage144: Spleen doesn't bother with penis size contests; instead, he goes straight to penis number.</p>

[Ganonfro]

Ok, for the confusion of Zero and Cho, I'll clear some things up.

Saga Frontier is connected to Final Fantasy through the Final Fantasy Legend Gameboy games. Not related to The Mana series, as far as I know.

Mystic Quest (UK)/Final Fantasy Adventure/Sword of Mana are the same game. The reason it was called Final Fantasy Adventure was because it was a spin off of the Final Fantasy franchise, thus the reusing of sprites from FF1 all throughout FFA. Secret of Mana was originally going to be called Final Fantasy Adventure 2, but they changed the name to something more fitting.

I too love Secret of Mana to death, mostly because it was the first of the series I played and allowed me to play the game with friends and my brothers. Spamming spells isn't a problem if you, oh I don't know... DON'T DO IT. Seriously. The game is more fun if you don't, and it isn't a detractor if you DON'T DO IT.

I've played everygame in it for a small amount except for Legend of Mana, which completely eludes me so far.

Cho: If you need help in Sword of Mana, I likely could help you along, since you're very close to the end currently.

Spleen:.... Which emulator are you using, or did you play this in person?

[Seethe347]

Secret of Mana is one of my favoritest RPGs ever, although the only other game from the series I've played is Final Fantasy Adventure. I've beaten both of these multiple times.

Spell spamming was never a huge issue for me since boss fights are only a small part of what I get my entertainment from in that game. What I'm mostly focused on is getting all of my stuff built up as far as it will go. And, as I recall, there are a few bosses that it doesn't work so well on anyway. Plus, I tend to be so stingy with my magic otherwise that, unless I've spent extra time building it up, I can usually run that sprite out of MP before the boss goes down anyway.

Speaking of Mystic Quest (US), that's also one of my favoritest RPGs ever even though I've always heard that it's widely disliked. Something about not taking long enough to beat. Personally, when I play it, I always insist on clearing out all of the battlefields on the overworld map, wiping all of the enemies out of every dungeon, and then spending a few more hours in every area leveling up on top of that whether it's necessary or not. Also, the last time I played through, I couldn't remember where to find the Excalibur, so the final few areas were considerably more challenging.

[Spleen]

Fro: ZSNES. <p>-_-___-___-___-_-

"There are four types of men: one who says what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours - he is a neutral person. One who says what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine is a fool. One who says what's mine is yours and what's yours is yours is righteous. One who says what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine is evil."
-Talmud, Avot 5:13

Arch mage144: Spleen doesn't bother with penis size contests; instead, he goes straight to penis number.</p>

[Seethe347]

Also: I would like Saga Frontier 2 a lot, but I don't know how to gain a steady influx of money. Normal battles don't seem to give you anything and I can't sell my items. I think those one-on-one duels give you a little bit, but I don't recall it being enough to cover your healing bills, and even if it is it's still pretty meager.

Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seethe347>Seethe347</A] at: 11/5/06 16:57

[FlamingDeth]

I've only really played Seiken Densetsu 3. :(

Well, unless you count that one game boy thing that was labeled as a Final Fantasy game for some reason, I actually kinda liked that one. <p><hr />Radio message from HQ:
Dance Commander, we love you!</p>

[Ganonfro]

Final Fantasy Legend was the first in the series, so not counting it would be rather... odd.

Since many people have brought it up, how good was SD3? I haven't gotten around to playing it, but how good of a game is it? Also, can it be played over ZSNES's internet connectivity?

[Endesu]

Here's an overbloated review of mine that could stand to be revised quite a bit.

I snipped the segment on graphics, sound, and story because they're just fine.

<span style="font-size:xx-small;">Unfortunately! The entire thing is bogged down by the follwing sequence:
Find out where to go. Go through dungeon made up of ever more screens as the game progresses. Fight enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy after enemy as you go through each room, some of which trap you and force you to fight said enemies. Oh, and try not to go too far then backtrack, or else the monsters will respawn and the sequence begins again. After the enemy fighting fun, there's a boss. Beat the boss.
Go back to town. Get your next objective. And off you go...

The sequence applies to much of the game, where the plot is generally (but not always) furthered by killing the boss that lies beyond the horde of monsters. This gets very repetitive and very frustrating very quickly.

Oh, and let's not forget the levelling! RPGs tend to be infamous for their forcing you to gain experience through fighting various enemies thousands of times in order to be strong enough to face the next boss. This definitely applies to this game, as well... several of the bosses can be hellish if you aren't strong enough.


Take the Wind Kingdom Rolante at a certain point in the game. You enter the final room and fight a reactor that spits out monster after monster. It's tough, but doable, and you blow through it. The boss you face just after that packs even more of a whammy and can put you back to the point where you have to face the reactor AGAIN. And no, I'm not bitter about that AT ALL.

There's also an idiotic inventory limitation. That isn't to say you can't buy as many of each item as you want. You can buy lots and lots of every item... as long as you put most of it in your 'storage', or your item backup bin. During the battles, you only have access to a limited selection of items... and you can only hold up to 9 of each. What the hell is this? Square trying to be more 'realistic'? In a damn game filled with rabbits without feet, amazons with bizarre headdresses, and trees that hold the 'magic energy' of the world? Cripes.

And then there's the 'AI'. You'll eventually acquire two other characters (whom you select before you start a new game) and, ideally, they're supposed to help you in battle. I can't tell you how many times they stood around like idiots as I got my ass kicked by the swarm of assorted nasties. They stand around as they themselves are attacked! Too many times I've played as Angela, spamming the enemies with Holy Ball/Evil Gate and hoping that the other two (in this case, Duran and Hawkeye) will actually attack the enemies and hold them off the relatively weak sorceress. Do they? Of course not! They stand off and let the horde of potos and lizards molest me. Thanks, guys.

Apparently I have to lead on the attack by thrusting my staff forward! This leads to an annoying thing throughout the game: as Angela, I have to throw out a weak attack just to let the two guys know to start kicking ass. This could've been used as valuable time for, I don't know, casting spells to save the party's ass, but due to the weaksauce AI, well, that just ain't possible.

The class system is... well, it's something. In order to even begin to change your class, you need to reach certain levels. That's right, levelling again! After which, you'll have to battle through certain dungeons to get to certain stones. Again. And, after all of this trouble, you can finally decide on which class you want to aim for. There are two class changes in the game for each character, and each CC has a branch between Light and Dark. Depending on which path you pick, you can end up as Light/Light, Light/Dark, Dark/Light, and Dark/Dark, each with their own individual abilities and specialties.
The nasty thing about this is the fact that some of the classes are outright useless, and in order to determine which classes suck and which don't... you'll have to experiment! Which means levelling through said particular class for a few hours, seeing if it fits you, then reloading and trying that other class, and so on. Lots of fun.

So, yeah, these flaws are definitely notable, though nothing any worse than any other RPG out there. The graphics, music, and pure playability of it all more than make up for the drawbacks and make SD3 a definite must-play for those who can tolerate RPG games out there.
Now, Square/Enix whatever, make a GBA port, for God's sakes. And work on the goddamned AI.</span>

But, hey, that's just my experience. Who knows, you might love everything I complained about. :D <p><hr />
<div style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:xx-small;">Curtis: Dannyboy, look at you. You've changed considerably, into a badass, if I may.
Dan: Yeah, you've changed a lot too, into an old man! I went to see the devil, now it's your turn!
Curtis: Oh, my pupil, so tenacious of life, guess I have to kill you again.
Dan: Shut up, before you run out of breath!
Curtis: I got rid of those smiles, there's no one left to disturb our game. Just you, and me.
Dan: Sounds fair, 'cuz I hate holding back, even for an old fart like yourself.
Curtis: Talk all you want, I won't need six bullets for you.
Dan: Or four for you.</span>
</div></p>Edited by: [url=http://p068.ezboard.com/brpgww60462.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crawlingreshiki>Crawling] at: 11/7/06 12:48

[Archmage144]

Chances are that people who are interested in playing RPGs at all are unbothered by the vast majority of the things you complained about, in fact. It's a little like buying Madden 2006 and complaining that there's too much passing and too many field goals.

Then again, I never played far enough into SD3 to develop an opinion about it, mostly because I played for an hour and a half or so, forgot to save at any point, died, and didn't feel like replaying the game's intro. Notably, this lack of any real interest in has not waned.

Also, the primary complaint against FFMQ that I've heard is not typically that it's too short. In fact, I rarely hear people criticize its plot, which is fairly thin and uninspired, but is still kind of entertaining. The problem that I have trying to play it today (and that other people evidently have had as well) is that the game's combat is grossly repetitive. You might think that because you can see all of the game's enemies and that there are no random encounters that combat would become less annoying; the problem is that unlike Chrono Trigger, where some encounters can be avoided with caution, FFMQ's enemies are visible roadblocks that you have to hack your way through. Feel like you have to fight a battle every two steps in a typical RPG? Quite often in FFMQ, you literally have an enemy every two steps down a corridor; the only difference is that you can see them coming. <p><hr /><div style="text-align:center">

RPGWW Wiki!</div></p>

[Endesu]

<blockquote>Quote:

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Chances are that people who are interested in playing RPGs at all are unbothered by the vast majority of the things you complained about, in fact. It's a little like buying Madden 2006 and complaining that there's too much passing and too many field goals.

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True enough, but that doesn't make what is essentially a lazy and overly derivative method of lengthening gameplay time necessarily 'good'. It would be inaccurate to say that the folk who play RPGs aren't entirely unbothered by this. Rather, they're likely interested in seeing what the game has to offer in terms of storyline and character, and as such, force themselves to slog through the tedium of grinding. I'm well aware there are likely those who actively enjoy grinding, but I'm presuming they're the minority.

[Ganonfro]

End, if you dislike this one, you'd likely hate the newer ones to come out, which seem to focus on the grinding even more than the previous ones. Namely, Children of Mana, which is all about dungeon crawling. The only thing that's really cool about it is being able to play the dungeons with 3 friends at the same time. Don't take this for complaining. I like the series, since I like the artistic silliness in the enemy designs. Its refreshing to beat the crap out of cute rabbit things instead of hyper realistic dogs or dragons.

And likely yes... There are very few who enjoy the grinding, but I see it as a worthy thing to do with a friend, instead of playing alone. Multiplayer hack and slash games like this are just a sillier version of Double Dragon or TMNT 2, since those didn't even have plots to add to the game, it was just game play. And the music is horrendously addictive to me.

[Archmage144]

I'd say you're probably right, and I haven't been playing many RPGs lately partly because the time investment in stuff that is not quite as interesting hasn't been worth the stuff that is interesting. However, I think this is a function of my shifted priorities more than an inherent flaw in the games themselves; I figure that enough people aren't bothered by it that the games have sold well enough for the genre to have lasted a decade plus. <p><hr /><div style="text-align:center">

RPGWW Wiki!</div></p>

[Seethe347]

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Also, the primary complaint against FFMQ that I've heard is not typically that it's too short. In fact, I rarely hear people criticize its plot, which is fairly thin and uninspired, but is still kind of entertaining. The problem that I have trying to play it today (and that other people evidently have had as well) is that the game's combat is grossly repetitive. You might think that because you can see all of the game's enemies and that there are no random encounters that combat would become less annoying; the problem is that unlike Chrono Trigger, where some encounters can be avoided with caution, FFMQ's enemies are visible roadblocks that you have to hack your way through. Feel like you have to fight a battle every two steps in a typical RPG? Quite often in FFMQ, you literally have an enemy every two steps down a corridor; the only difference is that you can see them coming.

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This is actually the first time I've heard this complaint raised against FFMQ specifically. I've always just attributed this problem to the more general rule that old RPGs and many newer ones always feature way too many repetitive battles. I can see how the fact that they're unavoidable in FFMQ (or rather, just more unavoidable since other RPGs still require the player to fight a lot of repetitive battles for the sake of leveling if not for logistical reasons) could grate on the nerves, but it never really affected me. From my perspective, FFMQ's encounter system just means that you can usually backtrack without fighting more battles unless you leave the stage.

[NamagomiMk0]

Actually, End, that section's a bit of a trick. Disposable single-use saber- and buff-items work wonders against the reactor, and the boss afterward is a huge gimmick. <p>"DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DEFEAT US? OUR TREASURE MAY BE HEAVY, BUT WE ARE LIGHT AS WIND. ONLY MAGICS MAY HURT US, BUT ONLY WE KNOW WHICH ONES." --Omoikane, Digital Devil Saga 2</p>